Digital BW, The Print

Martin, Nick,

Just tried some prints on the Epson Archival matte paper, Black ink only, with the VM MIS coldtone HEX inkset.

Printed at 2880, with the "Photo Paper" Media setting, (so that I could get to use the 2880 DPI setting).

I didn't have a 35mm tri x neg, but I did have an image of Granite rocks with Lichen on it, that is very textured. There is a deep dark
nearly black reflecting pool beneath it, and a bit of smooth gray water in the corner of the picture.

The results are fabulous in all areas except the smooth water, where there is a tiny grain pattern. Beautiful tones, and nice snappy
contrast and rich detail all over the place. For any image that does not have smooth areas like sky, water, or fog, this is a great
technique. VERY sharp print.

An added bonus is the blacks are deeper when using the black only ink.  I used the Neutral Curve from Paul Roark.  I have to say, this
technique produces the deepest black I've ever seen from an inkjet printer using any third party black ink. Equal to the Epson Original
black ink!

HOWever, this technique does NOT work on Photo Matte paper from Legion. The black pool of water was just that. Black. No other tones. None.
Black only, and dripping wet when it came out of the printer. Looks like black ink only is not good for this paper, but great on the Epson
paper. Haven't tried it on other papers yet.

Epson Archival does seem to have a lot going for it, doesn't it?

Even at 2880, the smooth water isn't too bad, as there is a slight reflection in it to break up some of the artifacts that normally would
show up on a smooth gray area.  I didn't think this was possible. It isn't, on an 1160, as the artifacts are too noticeable at 1440 DPI.

Jerry

Jerry,

What all this makes me wonder if the other 3 inks in the quads really 
are just dilutions of the black? Seems to me if they were, you would 
still have that incredible neutral tone I see in the mono-ink print 
where the paper color dominates the tone of the print.

There is obviously some toning in the Piezo inks and I think there 
must be some in the 75% and 50% of the MIS VM as well.

I, for one, would be very interested in a true neutral ink set. Maybe 
even a duo to tri tone system. Think about how close you can get with 
just the black. What if you just split the duty between a 100% and a 
50%? Or a 100%, 50% and 25%?

I think what you saw on the Legion is just a paper "profile" issue. 
You could probably come up with a correction curve to get better 
results.

All this certainly has given me a new perspective on the whole thing. 
My hat is off to Nick for sticking to his guns in the face of 
massive "conventional wisdom."

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Martin, Nick,
> 
> Just tried some prints on the Epson Archival matte paper, Black ink 
only, with the VM MIS coldtone HEX inkset.
> 
> Printed at 2880, with the "Photo Paper" Media setting, (so that I 
could get to use the 2880 DPI setting).
> 
> I didn't have a 35mm tri x neg, but I did have an image of Granite 
rocks with Lichen on it, that is very textured. There is a deep dark
> nearly black reflecting pool beneath it, and a bit of smooth gray 
water in the corner of the picture.
> 
> The results are fabulous in all areas except the smooth water, 
where there is a tiny grain pattern. Beautiful tones, and nice snappy
> contrast and rich detail all over the place. For any image that 
does not have smooth areas like sky, water, or fog, this is a great
> technique. VERY sharp print.
> 
> An added bonus is the blacks are deeper when using the black only 
ink.  I used the Neutral Curve from Paul Roark.  I have to say, this
> technique produces the deepest black I've ever seen from an inkjet 
printer using any third party black ink. Equal to the Epson Original
> black ink!
> 
> HOWever, this technique does NOT work on Photo Matte paper from 
Legion. The black pool of water was just that. Black. No other tones. 
None.
> Black only, and dripping wet when it came out of the printer. Looks 
like black ink only is not good for this paper, but great on the Epson
> paper. Haven't tried it on other papers yet.
> 
> Epson Archival does seem to have a lot going for it, doesn't it?
> 
> Even at 2880, the smooth water isn't too bad, as there is a slight 
reflection in it to break up some of the artifacts that normally would
> show up on a smooth gray area.  I didn't think this was possible. 
It isn't, on an 1160, as the artifacts are too noticeable at 1440 DPI.
> 
> Jerry

>Just tried some prints on the Epson Archival matte paper, Black ink only,
>with the VM MIS coldtone HEX inkset.

>The results are fabulous in all areas except the smooth water, where there
>is a tiny grain pattern. Beautiful tones, and nice snappy
>contrast and rich detail all over the place. For any image that does not
>have smooth areas like sky, water, or fog, this is a great
>technique. VERY sharp print.
>
>An added bonus is the blacks are deeper when using the black only ink.  I
>used the Neutral Curve from Paul Roark.  I have to say, this
>technique produces the deepest black I've ever seen from an inkjet printer
>using any third party black ink. Equal to the Epson Original
>black ink!

Ha! Vindicated at last. I guess it was worth banging on about this for
weeks on end after all...

>HOWever, this technique does NOT work on Photo Matte paper from Legion.
>The black pool of water was just that. Black. No other tones. None.
>Black only, and dripping wet when it came out of the printer. Looks like
>black ink only is not good for this paper, but great on the Epson
>paper. Haven't tried it on other papers yet.

The Legion Photo Matte does seem to accept a bit more ink than either of
the Epson Matte papers. But that can easily be adjusted by way of some kind
of curve; once you get it set up right, you'll find you can get just as
much subtlety in the almost-blacks as you can with any other paper. The
greater ink acceptance should also give it a greater tonal range.

-- Nick



NICHOLAS HARTMANN                                +1 (414) 271-4890
611 N. Broadway, Suite 509                  fax: +1 (414) 271-4892
Milwaukee, WI 53202, USA                       polyglot@...

Technical and scientific translator:  German and French -> English

Nick, if you ever develop a curve, let me know. I don't understand how to make one. (for legion photomatte paper)

Jerry

>
>
> Ha! Vindicated at last. I guess it was worth banging on about this for
> weeks on end after all...
>
> >HOWever, this technique does NOT work on Photo Matte paper from Legion.
> >The black pool of water was just that. Black. No other tones. None.
> >Black only, and dripping wet when it came out of the printer. Looks like
> >black ink only is not good for this paper, but great on the Epson
> >paper. Haven't tried it on other papers yet.

>Nick, if you ever develop a curve, let me know. I don't understand how to
>make one. (for legion photomatte paper)

Jerry -

Any curve I give you is unlikely to work unless you're using exactly the
same computer, printer, etc.

The principle is very simple, however: in the Photoshop Page Setup dialog
you will find at the bottom left a button labeled Transfer. Click that, and
you find a graph box with an (initially straight-line) curve, and a series
of fields labeled 0 through 100. These, and the curve, refer to the amount
of ink laid down by the printer in response to the image data sent by the
file.

Here is a suggested procedure:

- Set your monitor to some standard and easily repeatable condition; for
example, you could zero the contrast and brightness controls, and zero the
gamma in the Adobe Gamma utility. Write down these settings.

- Print out a test file (a smooth gradient, a 21-step wedge, a full-range
image, etc.) using whatever standard printer settings you have decided on.

- Compare the test file to the image on screen. If the highlights in the
test file look lighter than what's on screen, fiddle with the Transfer
Function curve (or enter an appropriate value) to get the printer to lay
down more ink in the highlights. Same idea for the shadows and midtones.
This is a trial-and(mostly)-error process that no doubt could be automated
with lots of expensive calibration hardware which I don't feel like buying.

- Eventually you will end up with a transfer function that largely
compensates for the difference between your screen image and your printer's
behavior with a given ink and paper and with a given group of settings.
Save and name the transfer function, and apply it every time you print with
that ink and paper.

-->  I remember reading somewhere that this can be done much more easily by
adjusting the screen image to match a printout, then somehow _inverting_
the resulting curve to create a Transfer Function, but now I can't find the
reference. Anybody know how to do that?

I have no idea whether any of this would work in color...

-- Nick

NICHOLAS HARTMANN                                +1 (414) 271-4890
611 N. Broadway, Suite 509                  fax: +1 (414) 271-4892
Milwaukee, WI 53202, USA                       polyglot@...

Technical and scientific translator:  German and French -> English

I'll give it a try Nick, but I dunno...

J

>

>
>
> The principle is very simple, however: in the Photoshop Page Setup dialog
> you will find at the bottom left a button labeled Transfer. Click that, and
> you find a graph box with an (initially straight-line) curve, and a series
> of fields labeled 0 through 100. These, and the curve, refer to the amount
> of ink laid down by the printer in response to the image data sent by the
> file.
>
> Here is a suggested procedure:
>
> - Set your monitor to some standard and easily repeatable condition; for
> example, you could zero the contrast and brightness controls, and zero the
> gamma in the Adobe Gamma utility. Write down these settings.
>
> - Print out a test file (a smooth gradient, a 21-step wedge, a full-range
> image, etc.) using whatever standard printer settings you have decided on.
>
> - Compare the test file to the image on screen. If the highlights in the
> test file look lighter than what's on screen, fiddle with the Transfer
> Function curve (or enter an appropriate value) to get the printer to lay
> down more ink in the highlights. Same idea for the shadows and midtones.
> This is a trial-and(mostly)-error process that no doubt could be automated
> with lots of expensive calibration hardware which I don't feel like buying.
>
> - Eventually you will end up with a transfer function that largely
> compensates for the difference between your screen image and your printer's
> behavior with a given ink and paper and with a given group of settings.
> Save and name the transfer function, and apply it every time you print with
> that ink and paper.
>
> -->  I remember reading somewhere that this can be done much more easily by
> adjusting the screen image to match a printout, then somehow _inverting_
> the resulting curve to create a Transfer Function, but now I can't find the
> reference. Anybody know how to do that?
>
> I have no idea whether any of this would work in color...
>
> -- Nick
>
> NICHOLAS HARTMANN                                +1 (414) 271-4890
> 611 N. Broadway, Suite 509                  fax: +1 (414) 271-4892
> Milwaukee, WI 53202, USA                       polyglot@...
>
> Technical and scientific translator:  German and French -> English
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
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Nick,

Thanks for the Transfer Function workflow. This is one of those 
simple things in Photoshop that either you know nothing about or you 
have enough experience that you figure it so simple you never mention 
it.

For future reference I stuck in the "Files" section in the "General 
image processing" folder.

Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Nicholas Hartmann 
<POLYGLOT@E...> wrote:
> >Nick, if you ever develop a curve, let me know. I don't understand 
how to
> >make one. (for legion photomatte paper)
> 
> Jerry -
> 
> Any curve I give you is unlikely to work unless you're using 
exactly the
> same computer, printer, etc.
> 
> The principle is very simple, however: in the Photoshop Page Setup 
dialog
> you will find at the bottom left a button labeled Transfer. Click 
that, and
> you find a graph box with an (initially straight-line) curve, and a 
series
> of fields labeled 0 through 100. These, and the curve, refer to the 
amount
> of ink laid down by the printer in response to the image data sent 
by the
> file.
> 
> Here is a suggested procedure:
> 
> - Set your monitor to some standard and easily repeatable 
condition; for
> example, you could zero the contrast and brightness controls, and 
zero the
> gamma in the Adobe Gamma utility. Write down these settings.
> 
> - Print out a test file (a smooth gradient, a 21-step wedge, a full-
range
> image, etc.) using whatever standard printer settings you have 
decided on.
> 
> - Compare the test file to the image on screen. If the highlights 
in the
> test file look lighter than what's on screen, fiddle with the 
Transfer
> Function curve (or enter an appropriate value) to get the printer 
to lay
> down more ink in the highlights. Same idea for the shadows and 
midtones.
> This is a trial-and(mostly)-error process that no doubt could be 
automated
> with lots of expensive calibration hardware which I don't feel like 
buying.
> 
> - Eventually you will end up with a transfer function that largely
> compensates for the difference between your screen image and your 
printer's
> behavior with a given ink and paper and with a given group of 
settings.
> Save and name the transfer function, and apply it every time you 
print with
> that ink and paper.
> 
> -->  I remember reading somewhere that this can be done much more 
easily by
> adjusting the screen image to match a printout, then somehow 
_inverting_
> the resulting curve to create a Transfer Function, but now I can't 
find the

> reference. Anybody know how to do that?
> 
> I have no idea whether any of this would work in color...
> 
> -- Nick
> 
> NICHOLAS HARTMANN                                +1 (414) 271-4890
> 611 N. Broadway, Suite 509                  fax: +1 (414) 271-4892
> Milwaukee, WI 53202, USA                       polyglot@e...
> 
> Technical and scientific translator:  German and French -> English

To Jerry Olson -

If you still have any interest in black-only printing, I discovered over
the weekend that an easy way to compensate approximately for the difference
in ink acceptance between Epson Heavyweight Matte (or Archival Matte, I
assume) and Legion Photo Matte is by way of the Print dialog: simply change
the Paper Type setting from "Matte Paper Heavyweight" to "Photo Paper", and
the printer will lay down just enough less ink to compensate. You will, of
course, need to go into the Custom/Advanced section to make sure your dpi
settings, dither, etc. are correctly adjusted.

It's not perfect but it will get you close; I suppose you could then
fine-tune by fiddling with the Brightness and Contrast sliders in the
Advanced part of the Print dialog, but I haven't dared touch them yet...

-- Nick


NICHOLAS HARTMANN                                +1 (414) 271-4890
611 N. Broadway, Suite 509                  fax: +1 (414) 271-4892
Milwaukee, WI 53202, USA                       polyglot@...

Technical and scientific translator:  German and French -> English

A dilemma -

I would like to move up from hand-filled cartridges to a continuous flow
system for my Epson 1160 printer, and cannot decide between the nomorecarts
system and the one offered by MIS. Given my past history with this list,
you will not be surprised to learn that I need the system only for the
black cartridge, in which I will be using the black that is part of the MIS
VM set.

My criteria are as follows:

1. Absolute reliability in terms of maintaining a consistent fill level in
the cartridge (I _believe_ I have seen some differences between prints
generated when the cartridge is full, and those produced when it is closer
to empty).

2. Absolute physical integrity: the idea of multiple fluid ounces of black
ink somehow escaping from this system and dripping down all over my
computer cart gives me the anticipatory shivers.

3. Minimal modification to the printer.

4. Ease of refilling.

If anyone has positive or negative experiences with either of these
systems, or (ideally) has used _both_ of them, I would be very grateful for
comments.

Many thanks,

-- Nick

NICHOLAS HARTMANN                                +1 (414) 271-4890
611 N. Broadway, Suite 509                  fax: +1 (414) 271-4892
Milwaukee, WI 53202, USA                       polyglot@...

Technical and scientific translator:  German and French -> English

Nick,

I have a CIS on my 1200 that I got from ConeTech which I believe was 
the same as NoMoreCarts and a NoMoreCarts CIS on my 1280. No 
irreversible modifications to the printer.

Only one problem on the 1200. The adhesive that holds Velcro tape for 
the support arm to the printer is coming loose and letting the arm 
sag. Should be easy to correct. The new system came with alcohol 
wipes to clean the attachment point on the printer. If that had been 
available for the 1200 set up I think I would have been okay.

No experience with the MIS system.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Nicholas Hartmann 
<POLYGLOT@E...> wrote:
> A dilemma -
> 
> I would like to move up from hand-filled cartridges to a continuous 
flow
> system for my Epson 1160 printer, and cannot decide between the 
nomorecarts
> system and the one offered by MIS. Given my past history with this 
list,
> you will not be surprised to learn that I need the system only for 
the
> black cartridge, in which I will be using the black that is part of 
the MIS
> VM set.
> 
> My criteria are as follows:
> 
> 1. Absolute reliability in terms of maintaining a consistent fill 
level in
> the cartridge (I _believe_ I have seen some differences between 
prints
> generated when the cartridge is full, and those produced when it is 
closer
> to empty).
> 
> 2. Absolute physical integrity: the idea of multiple fluid ounces 
of black
> ink somehow escaping from this system and dripping down all over my
> computer cart gives me the anticipatory shivers.
> 
> 3. Minimal modification to the printer.
> 
> 4. Ease of refilling.
> 
> If anyone has positive or negative experiences with either of these
> systems, or (ideally) has used _both_ of them, I would be very 
grateful for

> comments.
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> -- Nick
> 
> NICHOLAS HARTMANN                                +1 (414) 271-4890
> 611 N. Broadway, Suite 509                  fax: +1 (414) 271-4892
> Milwaukee, WI 53202, USA                       polyglot@e...
> 
> Technical and scientific translator:  German and French -> English