Digital BW, The Print

Shilesh,

I have strongly stated my opinion of the situation on the Piezo3000 list a
couple of times now and I sent a summary of all the posts and data gathered
by this group to Jon directly. It is  clear to me that using the Piezo plug
in to print the PiezoTone inks offers no protection against excessive
warming and fading of the black ink and that replacing the black ink solves
the problem.

The fact that other drivers use more black or use it farther up the tone
scale than the Piezo plugin, is not particularly significant to my mind
other than it makes the failure more glaringly obvious. I think that anyone
still using the PT black is being very unwise.

This last test was to add data to the more extensive testing done by Paul
Roark because there is a tendency on the part of some to discredit his
findings based on the erroneous idea that he works for or owes loyalty to
MIS. What has been ignored is that Paul's 600 hour fade test of WN-PT and
300 hour fade test of Sel-PT were done with step wedges printed with the
Piezo plugin. I know because I printed the wedges he tested myself.

At this point I am satisfied the problem has been sufficiently documented
and I really don't want to get into a debate with anyone over the issue.

Martin Wesley



----- Original Message -----
From: "Shilesh Jani" <shilesh.jani@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 6:39 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: PiezoTone Black Fade Test


> Martin,
>
> Thank you for clarifying this issue.  I wonder why folks at
> Piezography have not caught on to this. Did you cc: Cone, or post
> this on Piezography3000 group?
>
> Shilesh
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > In order to verify for my self that replacing the PiezoTone black
> ink in the Selenium PiezoTone ink set with MIS-Full Spectrum Neutral
> black was the proper response to the rapid warm/fade shift of
> PiezoTone black ink shown by Paul Roark in his comparative fade
> testing of both PiezoTone inks sets to MIS-Full inks and as reported
> on prints by several other people, I did the following.
> >
> > I printed a 21-step wedge with Selenium PiezoTone ink, including
> the PiezoTone black ink on Photo Rag 188 using the Piezo plug-in with
> the Photo Rag 188 profile and quality set to "Better". On the same
> sheet of paper I printed a second wedge in the same manner only for
> this wedge MIS-Full Spectrum Neutral black ink was substituted for
> the PiezoTone black ink.
> >
> > I allowed the wedges to "settle" for 4 days and then measured C,M,
> Y and Visual densities of each step in the wedge and the 95-100 steps
> as well.
> >
> > The Sel-PT with PT-K measured 1.83, 1.88, 1.78 and 1.84 with
> a "Warmth" (C-Y) of 0.04.
> > The Sel-PT with MIS-FSN-K measured 1.69, 1.70, 1.67 and 1.66 with
> a "Warmth" of 0.02.
> >
> > The sheet with the two wedges was then hung in a west facing window
> where it received indirect or direct sunlight all day. After 14 days
> I removed the sheet and measured the wedges again and got the
> following readings:
> >
> > The Sel-PT with PT-K measured 1.51, 1.63, 1.69 and 1.58 with
> a "Warmth" (C-Y) of -0.18.
> > The Sel-PT with MIS-FSN-K measured 1.60, 1.63, 1.65 and 1.61 with
> a "Warmth" of -0.04.
> >
> > Basically the wedge printed with the PT black faded 0.26 density
> units and warmed 0.22 units while the wedge printed with the MIS-FSN
> black faded 0.07 density units and warmed 0.07 units. The shift in
> the PT black was 3 to 4 time the shift in the FSN black. The effects
> can be seen on the wedge as a slight reddish discoloration in the 90
> to 100% steps.
> >
> > All of the spectrophotometer readings can be found in the files
> section of the group homepage in folder:
> >
> > Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones > Recent tests on PT black fade
> >
> > Based on this additional information,  I continue to recommend that
> to avoid premature fading and warming in the dark tones, 85 to 100%,
> with either of the PiezoTone ink sets and the Piezo plug in or other
> driver, that you replace the PT black with the FSN black until a more
> fade resistant black is available from InkJetMall.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jon Cone" <piezobw@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "Bill Bergh" <bill@...>; "Lynne O'Hara"
<lynne@...>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: PiezoTone Black Fade Test


(snip)
>
>
> 50% Patch Comparison of PiezoTone and MIS by Paul Roark
>                         PT 50%      MIS-FS 50%      MIS-FSN 50%
> Optical Density         0.64        0.66            0.71
> 600 hours               0.63        0.54            0.59
> % of fade               2%          18%             17%
>
>
> The fade rate of 2% is unprecedented.

Jon,

I just want to add that my own window fade test confirmed the fade
resistance of the Selenium PiezoTone gray inks with values from 0 to 85 dot%
showing only 0 % to 2% fade which is at the limit of the accuracy of my
Spectrocam spectrophotometer. There are a couple of odd readings in the data
which indicate that my instrument is not really up to measuring changes this
small. For all practical purposes there was no fade in the grays in my test.

Likewise my test showed the amount of warming in the grays was extreme low
with the change in C-Y averaging 0.01 unit.

They are continuing to give me the best prints yet.

Martin Wesley


(snip earlier)

I'd use both Jon. One for the porfolio and one for the sales. You aren't
going to please everybody all of the time! But then, I prefer dyes to pigs
for colour... so maybe I'm just naturally perverse!

Julian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Cone" <piezobw@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:42 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: PiezoTone Black Fade Test


> on 10/15/02 5:28 AM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com at
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> > Jon,
> >
> > I just want to add that my own window fade test confirmed the fade
> > resistance of the Selenium PiezoTone gray inks with values from 0 to 85
dot%
> > showing only 0 % to 2% fade which is at the limit of the accuracy of my
> > Spectrocam spectrophotometer. There are a couple of odd readings in the
data
> > which indicate that my instrument is not really up to measuring changes
this
> > small. For all practical purposes there was no fade in the grays in my
test.
> >
> > Likewise my test showed the amount of warming in the grays was extreme
low
> > with the change in C-Y averaging 0.01 unit.
> >
> > They are continuing to give me the best prints yet.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
>
> Martin,
>
> Honest opinion time. Okay???
>
> A - If we deliver you a black with the same performance as the PiezoTone
> grays but with a OD that starts slightly less than current competing black
> inks, but does not fade and therefore ends higher than them. Would you use
> that black exclusively even though at the onset it was paler than current
> blacks?
>
> B - If you knew that even another black was available which was slightly
> darker at the onset and yet faded to the lower OD of A, but not as
> dramatically as PIezoTone black because the starting OD was less, would
you
> rather use that because after all it is what everyone has been used to?
>
> C - If you choose B, to what degree are you willing to sacrifice non-fade
in
> order to have better aesthetics at the onset?
>
>
> D - Would this not be a great poll?
>
>
> --------------------------------
> may your highlights be dotless
> and your tonal scale smooth,
>
>
> Jon Cone
> jon@...
> Piezography(tm) brand software and inks
> http://www.piezography.com
> --------------------------------
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jon Cone" <piezobw@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:42 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: PiezoTone Black Fade Test


> on 10/15/02 5:28 AM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com at
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> > Jon,
> >
> > I just want to add that my own window fade test confirmed the fade
> > resistance of the Selenium PiezoTone gray inks with values from 0 to 85
dot%
> > showing only 0 % to 2% fade which is at the limit of the accuracy of my
> > Spectrocam spectrophotometer. There are a couple of odd readings in the
data
> > which indicate that my instrument is not really up to measuring changes
this
> > small. For all practical purposes there was no fade in the grays in my
test.
> >
> > Likewise my test showed the amount of warming in the grays was extreme
low
> > with the change in C-Y averaging 0.01 unit.
> >
> > They are continuing to give me the best prints yet.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
>
> Martin,
>
> Honest opinion time. Okay???

Jon,

Well of course the honest opinon is that we want it all and yesterday
please!<G>

In the meantime...
>
> A - If we deliver you a black with the same performance as the PiezoTone
> grays but with a OD that starts slightly less than current competing black
> inks, but does not fade and therefore ends higher than them. Would you use
> that black exclusively even though at the onset it was paler than current
> blacks?
>
> B - If you knew that even another black was available which was slightly
> darker at the onset and yet faded to the lower OD of A, but not as
> dramatically as PIezoTone black because the starting OD was less, would
you
> rather use that because after all it is what everyone has been used to?
>
> C - If you choose B, to what degree are you willing to sacrifice non-fade
in
> order to have better aesthetics at the onset?

I would need to work with the inks and see what they look like. The reason I
say this is that I did a series of prints of the same image all with the
Selenium gray in but using three different blacks, PT, FSN and Gen4. I found
that the overall difference of the prints was much, much less than the
density readings would suggest. I took the three prints to a local meeting
and laid them out on the table side by side. People could not consistently
identify the one with the higher Dmax ink. If this were the case with ink
"A" then there would be no reason not to use it.

Then the second question is how fast does ink "B" fade and does any fade
occur if exposure to light is kept to a normal to subdued level? Does it
color shift as it fades and if it does shift, is the hue compatible with the
rest of the inks in the set. Does the entire set fade at the same rate or
are the shadows fading faster than the midtones? Is it compatible with all
workflows or only with one? Ideally I would like to see a print that had
"faded out" to see what it looked like compared to a fresh print.

This is a very messy answer for you who has to make decisions as to what to
market and what kind of inventories to hold, etc. in order to be profitable.
For the end users I think the best situation is to have both inks available
so that they can make their own choice or do things like mix them 50/50 for
a compromise solution. Or have them in separate ink positions when the
2200/7600/9600 chips have been reverse engineered.

>
> D - Would this not be a great poll?

I think it would be interesting and necessary for you, but the results
probably should be taken with a grain of salt.

By the way, thank you for contributing to the list and taking the time to
answer questions. Participation by the people who bring us the products we
use is greatly appreciated. Most importantly asking the users what they
want. (Even if we don't have good answers. <G>)

Martin Wesley