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Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-27 by sdmey4@aol.com

In a message dated 11/26/2002 6:34:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, scho@... 
writes:

> Wilhelm has rated the ultrachrome pigments (9600) on cotton rag papers 
> at approx. 70-80+ years for full color prints and >100 years for B&W 
> prints on the same papers with the same inks.  The B&W prints were made 
> using the color inks, not black only.  I may have missed the fine 
> print, but why the difference?
> 

I have read That black and white prints made with IP5 on the x600 printers 
don't use any yellow ink at all. So I 'm sure this lack of yellow ink in 
black and white printing explains the differance in Whilhelm years, Not sure 
how the epson driver handels the black and white chores. Removing the Yellow 
inks seems to be the answer for metamerism issues.
Steve Meyers





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-27 by Mark Tucker

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> I have read That black and white prints made with IP5 on the 
x600 printers 
> don't use any yellow ink at all. So I 'm sure this lack of yellow 
ink in 
> black and white printing explains the differance in Whilhelm 
years, Not sure 
> how the epson driver handels the black and white chores. 


Steve, 

I agree with you that the general understanding is that Gorman 
uses ImagePrint5, but Wilhelm does not mention in the notes 
that the B/W numbers were calculated using ImagePrint5. 

Isn't it odd that the same inkset would rate out at over 100 years 
for B/W imagery, versus only 72 years for color imagery? (This 
with ESFA). Could the yellow ink be that radical?

All in all, it sure makes the 96/76/22 seem pretty sweet, huh? 
Wonder how a Gursky C-Print would compare? Wonder how a 
BW silver fiber print would compare?

Don't you know the guy who just took delivery on a 9600 Dye 
machine is having second thoughts right now?... (I was almost 
that guy).

Mark

Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-27 by sdmey4@aol.com

Epson, as well as others believe that they have created the do it all 
printer, b&w and color"the end to third party game" I would have to assume 
there is something"smart" about the epson driver that takes the Yellow ink 
out when doing black and white or neutral printing. I have not seen the 
driver menus to explain whats going on, but one of the big improvements was 
the elimination of the metamerism associated with color pigs printing 
greyscal images. I think it was reported that the yellow ink gets held back 
and that was the fix formost of the severe metamerism. The color inkset is 
only as good as its weakest link, and traditionally its been the Yellow 
position.
Anyway the 7600-9600 has moved up a notch or two on my buy list. ;0)
Steve M.
In a message dated 11/26/2002 10:09:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
mark@... writes:

> Steve, 
> 
> I agree with you that the general understanding is that Gorman 
> uses ImagePrint5, but Wilhelm does not mention in the notes 
> that the B/W numbers were calculated using ImagePrint5. 
> 
> Isn't it odd that the same inkset would rate out at over 100 years 
> for B/W imagery, versus only 72 years for color imagery? (This 
> with ESFA). Could the yellow ink be that radical?
> 
> All in all, it sure makes the 96/76/22 seem pretty sweet, huh? 
> Wonder how a Gursky C-Print would compare? Wonder how a 
> BW silver fiber print would compare?
> 
> Don't you know the guy who just took delivery on a 9600 Dye 
> machine is having second thoughts right now?... (I was almost 
> that guy).
> 
> Mark
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-27 by Ernst Dinkla

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: <sdmey4@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 3:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings


> In a message dated 11/26/2002 6:34:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
scho@...
> writes:
>
> > Wilhelm has rated the ultrachrome pigments (9600) on cotton rag papers
> > at approx. 70-80+ years for full color prints and >100 years for B&W
> > prints on the same papers with the same inks.  The B&W prints were made
> > using the color inks, not black only.  I may have missed the fine
> > print, but why the difference?
> >
>
> I have read That black and white prints made with IP5 on the x600 printers
> don't use any yellow ink at all. So I 'm sure this lack of yellow ink in
> black and white printing explains the differance in Whilhelm years, Not
sure
> how the epson driver handels the black and white chores. Removing the
Yellow
> inks seems to be the answer for metamerism issues.
> Steve Meyers

As black and grey are to the yellow side the use of yellow can be limited in
a B&W Ultrachrome print.
The main reason that Ultrachrome B&W will perform better in fade tests than
Ultrachrome C must be the
extreme replacement of the CcMmY composite greys by Black and Grey inks.
However up to 20% there still should be cmY in the greys. This is in the
normal Epson driver, IP5 shouldn't have any Y in the whole range.

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-27 by Ernst Dinkla

The site is very busy so it is hard to get there. I've been there once and
if I'm correct I saw no mention of future tests/results for third party
inks. Third party paper results will be published. The rest is all big
company ink systems. Does that indicate a change in policy or did I miss
something ?

The year 2000 test results can be downloaded from the archive.

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-27 by Mark Tucker

Yes, Ernst, the site is very busy. I only got in once or twice, and 
only to the 9600 page; the other pages were down, or "timed 
out".

If this is in fact true about the way that IP5 avoids yellow 
altogether, that's the first solid reason I have found yet to use that 
software. I always knew that yellow was the culprit, but I never 
knew to what degree. If IP5 kills yellow altogether, I might check 
out that software.

Still, even with color, 72 years (ESFA) ain't bad at all. 

And with the addition of a coating to seal the inks from the 
atmosphere, I feel even better about this whole approach.

MT

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ernst Dinkla" 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> The site is very busy so it is hard to get there. I've been there 
once and
> if I'm correct I saw no mention of future tests/results for third 
party
> inks. Third party paper results will be published. The rest is all 
big
> company ink systems. Does that indicate a change in policy or 
did I miss
> something ?
> 
> The year 2000 test results can be downloaded from the 
archive.
> 
> Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-27 by Julian Thomas

Well, I've just seen some 7600 prints using both IP5 and the native driver
on premium lustre to die for. Quentin sent me one of his 5x4 negs drum
scanned and printed both ways - I prefer the colour of the native driver
print - but that may be a profile issue - but I'll take 40-odd years under
glass for that black!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Tucker" <mark@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings


> Yes, Ernst, the site is very busy. I only got in once or twice, and
> only to the 9600 page; the other pages were down, or "timed
> out".
>
> If this is in fact true about the way that IP5 avoids yellow
> altogether, that's the first solid reason I have found yet to use that
> software. I always knew that yellow was the culprit, but I never
> knew to what degree. If IP5 kills yellow altogether, I might check
> out that software.
>
> Still, even with color, 72 years (ESFA) ain't bad at all.
>
> And with the addition of a coating to seal the inks from the
> atmosphere, I feel even better about this whole approach.
>
> MT
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ernst Dinkla"
> <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> > The site is very busy so it is hard to get there. I've been there
> once and
> > if I'm correct I saw no mention of future tests/results for third
> party
> > inks. Third party paper results will be published. The rest is all
> big
> > company ink systems. Does that indicate a change in policy or
> did I miss
> > something ?
> >
> > The year 2000 test results can be downloaded from the
> archive.
> >
> > Ernst
>
>
>
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Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-27 by Andrew Rodney

on 11/27/02 7:03 AM, Mark Tucker at mark@... wrote:

> If this is in fact true about the way that IP5 avoids yellow
> altogether, that's the first solid reason I have found yet to use that
> software. I always knew that yellow was the culprit, but I never
> knew to what degree. If IP5 kills yellow altogether, I might check
> out that software.
> 
It does indeed print with NO Yellow ink when you ask to use the gray
profiles (for B&W output).

Andrew Rodney 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-27 by Paul Roark

I think Ernst is correct that the better B&W performance is due to the
relatively high percentage of black & light black used.

Also, the non-use of the yellow ink is, no doubt, related to the
yellowness/warmth of the black particles.  However, I suspect the light
yellow UC pigment is used in the highlights, where I understand the light
black is not used.

However, I think the yellow is not the weakest color ink.  My reading and
fade testing suggests the magenta is the weak link, and it is still in the
UC "B&W" prints.  In my fade testing, the UC B&W test strip was starting to
show green shifting -- presumably as the magenta started to fade faster than
the other pigments.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-27 by Jerry Olson

Can't Epson realize that photographers simply don't WANT to use Epson 
inks only?  Price is the main reason,
but other people actually like other inks (Generations 4) better than 
they like epson inks. They also want
very large ink cartridges like the 3000 has. or larger. Until they bring 
their prices down to match third
party inks, they will NEVER have the third party "game" solved.

Jerry





sdmey4@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Epson, as well as others believe that they have created the do it all 
> printer, b&w and color"the end to third party game" I would have to assume 
> there is something"smart" about the epson driver that takes the Yellow ink 
> out when doing black and white or neutral printing. I have not seen the 
> driver menus to explain whats going on, but one of the big improvements was 
> the elimination of the metamerism associated with color pigs printing 
> greyscal images. I think it was reported that the yellow ink gets held back 
> and that was the fix formost of the severe metamerism. The color inkset is 
> only as good as its weakest link, and traditionally its been the Yellow 
> position.
> Anyway the 7600-9600 has moved up a notch or two on my buy list. ;0)
> Steve M.
> In a message dated 11/26/2002 10:09:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
> mark@... writes:
> 
> 
>>Steve, 
>>
>>I agree with you that the general understanding is that Gorman 
>>uses ImagePrint5, but Wilhelm does not mention in the notes 
>>that the B/W numbers were calculated using ImagePrint5. 
>>
>>Isn't it odd that the same inkset would rate out at over 100 years 
>>for B/W imagery, versus only 72 years for color imagery? (This 
>>with ESFA). Could the yellow ink be that radical?
>>
>>All in all, it sure makes the 96/76/22 seem pretty sweet, huh? 
>>Wonder how a Gursky C-Print would compare? Wonder how a 
>>BW silver fiber print would compare?
>>
>>Don't you know the guy who just took delivery on a 9600 Dye 
>>machine is having second thoughts right now?... (I was almost 
>>that guy).
>>
>>Mark
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>

RE: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-27 by Paul Roark

Jerry,

MIS will have UC clones soon.  The chipped carts and re-setters are close.

Paul
__________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 9:32 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings


  Can't Epson realize that photographers simply don't WANT to use Epson
  inks only?  Price is the main reason,
  but other people actually like other inks (Generations 4) better than
  they like epson inks. They also want
  very large ink cartridges like the 3000 has. or larger. Until they bring
  their prices down to match third
  party inks, they will NEVER have the third party "game" solved.

  Jerry





  sdmey4@... wrote:
  > Epson, as well as others believe that they have created the do it all
  > printer, b&w and color"the end to third party game" I would have to
assume
  > there is something"smart" about the epson driver that takes the Yellow
ink
  > out when doing black and white or neutral printing. I have not seen the
  > driver menus to explain whats going on, but one of the big improvements
was
  > the elimination of the metamerism associated with color pigs printing
  > greyscal images. I think it was reported that the yellow ink gets held
back
  > and that was the fix formost of the severe metamerism. The color inkset
is
  > only as good as its weakest link, and traditionally its been the Yellow
  > position.
  > Anyway the 7600-9600 has moved up a notch or two on my buy list. ;0)
  > Steve M.
  > In a message dated 11/26/2002 10:09:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
  > mark@... writes:
  >
  >
  >>Steve,
  >>
  >>I agree with you that the general understanding is that Gorman
  >>uses ImagePrint5, but Wilhelm does not mention in the notes
  >>that the B/W numbers were calculated using ImagePrint5.
  >>
  >>Isn't it odd that the same inkset would rate out at over 100 years
  >>for B/W imagery, versus only 72 years for color imagery? (This
  >>with ESFA). Could the yellow ink be that radical?
  >>
  >>All in all, it sure makes the 96/76/22 seem pretty sweet, huh?
  >>Wonder how a Gursky C-Print would compare? Wonder how a
  >>BW silver fiber print would compare?
  >>
  >>Don't you know the guy who just took delivery on a 9600 Dye
  >>machine is having second thoughts right now?... (I was almost
  >>that guy).
  >>
  >>Mark
  >>
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
  >
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > - Include your full name with your message.
  > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
  > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
  > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  >
  >
  >



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-27 by Jerry Olson

Hi Paul, 

I don't want to mess with a chip resetter. And I see no reason to use
ultrachrome inks.  I've heard nothing about them that seems desirable
except they are longer lasting.  But are they longer lasting than the
100 + years Kodak rated the MIS VM archival Hex inks at? They don't
appear to have a black as deep as the enhanced Generations 4 black. I'm
used to this black now, and nothing less will be acceptable. I would
always welcome a deeper black than Gen 4, though. Let me know if you
ever come across one.

Also, my 1280 wouldn't take 7 color inksets....

Jerry


> Paul
>

Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-27 by Andrew Rodney

on 11/27/02 10:31 AM, Jerry Olson at jerryolson@... wrote:

> Can't Epson realize that photographers simply don't WANT to use Epson
> inks only?  
> 
You  must be under the impression that Epson is in the business of selling
printers. In actuality, the printers make virtually no money and they are a
company that sells ink and paper (that¹s where the real money is anyway).
Why would Epson want anyone to put anything in their printer but Epson inks?

Andrew Rodney 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Wilhelm Ultrachrome Ratings

2002-11-28 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Andrew Rodney wrote:

>on 11/27/02 10:31 AM, Jerry Olson at jerryolson@rrv.net wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Can't Epson realize that photographers simply don't WANT to use Epson
>>inks only?  
>>
>>    
>>
>You  must be under the impression that Epson is in the business of selling
>printers. In actuality, the printers make virtually no money and they are a
>company that sells ink and paper (that¹s where the real money is anyway).
>Why would Epson want anyone to put anything in their printer but Epson inks?
>
>Andrew Rodney 
>
>
>  
>
Agreed Andrew...

But, at their price points (and with their sales model of cost shifting) 
they aren't likely to EVER kill off third party inks.. (unless they can 
introduce new product and inksets faster than 3rd parties can keep  up. )

As many of us know, there are really only about three major 
international firms developing/producing the colorants in these  inks. 
EPSON is NOT one of them.  In a sense, if you accept the model of them 
 really being an ink and media sales firm, then they are also simply 
rebadging the colorants made by others..

Look at the 2200.  Ultrachrome colorant based inksets are coming from a 
bunch of 3rd parties.. Several sources have working CIS/CFS systems 
already (in which one can use the 3rd party versions of the UC colorant 
based inks)...  The fact is, UNTIL EPSON can compete on a reasonable $$ 
for  $$ price footing, there will always be a significant 3rd  party 
consumable market in inks (in media, well they simply can't 
realistically carry/rebadge  every media people might want to utilize).  

In fact, quite to EPSON's consternation, the larger the inkjet market 
gets  and the more mainstream penetration it has, the GREATER the 
incentive (and potential profit) from 3rd party inks and media.  The 
razor/blade analogy may work in:

1)    Small markets

2)    Large markets in one of the following cases:

A)    small individual price differentials between OEM and 3rd party 
consumables (made up on high volume)

B)    instances where the OEM can use trademark or patent to  prohibit 
3rd party consumable use (unfortunately, for EPSON, the more developed a 
market becomes the LESS likely courts are to allow and OEM that leverage 
and inkjet is clearly near 100% mainstream now)

The reality is that EPSON's model was well-designed for a niche product. 
Now, they have moved into the mainstream, which means the rules are 
different, and scrutiny is much higher.  In fact, as the market expands 
the potential profits to 3rd party manufacturers increases exponentially 
and the knowledge base developed among those manufacturers increases in 
step with EPSON..  Is it any surprise then, that 2200/2100 CIS's have 
appeared faster than 1270 CIS/CFS did?  Or that MediaStreet has been 
able to introduce a universal desktop EPSON chip resetter?

Moreso, the more the market develops, the larger the niche markets will 
develop.  It's like aftermarket car parts: Some people will want value, 
come will want performance, some will want specialty products.  That's 
why we see dye sub inks, pigments, quads, etc. for inkjets.  The 
printers are simply tools and the market will develop unique media for 
the tools to use..  OEMs don't control the aftermarket auto parts market 
and they won't control the inkjet consumable market over the long term. 
 If anything, that should give EPSON pause when they review the sales 
model they rely upon. In any case, I don't much care anymore that EPSON 
uses this model of sales.. It is what actually allows SERIOUS 
professionals a wide range of ink and media choices..  It's not fair to 
the average consumer and that sucks, but, as an old saying goes  
"knowledge is power."  Consumers have other options for media and 
consumables, the law protects those options -- if consumers are too lazy 
or stupid to research those options, so be it (the job of neither the 
market nor gov't is to protect lazy or stupid consumers). The 
information is out there and quite readily available these days.
 
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"




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