Digital BW, The Print

A few people have asked me for the workflow that I developed with 
Paul to print on the 7000. One note of caution, I am using a PC with 
Photoshop 6.01, the Mac users may have unpredictable results as I 
understand there is a difference in the drivers.

--------------------------------------------------
PRELIMINARY
EPSON 7000 WORKFLOW SETTINGS
 
PHOTOSHOP COLOR SETTINGS
Under Settings select "Photoshop 5 Default Spaces
 
EPSON STYLUS PRO 7000 PRINTER SETTINGS
Print Space = Same as Source
Intent = Relative Colorimetric
 
SETUP SETTINGS
Name = Epson Stylus Pro 7000
Select Paper Size, Orientation and Source
 
PROPERTIES
Media Type = Photo Paper
Ink = Color
Mode = Custom
 
ADVANCED
Print Quality = Superfine - 1440dpi
Microweave = On (Should be default and grayed out)
Super = On (Should be default and grayed out)
Color Management = Color Controls
Gamma = 2.2
Mode = Vivid
All Slider initially set to 0
-------------------------------------------------
WORKFLOW
 
1. Load Grayscale Image
2. Covert to RGB
3. Apply Roark Curve
4. Print with above settings
 
Again, this is preliminary and subject to refinement.

Regards,
 
Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit" 
<kravit@b...> wrote:
> A few people have asked me for the workflow that I developed 
with 
> Paul to print on the 7000. One note of caution, I am using a PC 
with 
> Photoshop 6.01, the Mac users may have unpredictable 
results as I 
> understand there is a difference in the drivers.

Mike,

I'm making some very early test prints now with these same 
inks, with my Mac G4, and OS9.1. On Epson Smooth Fine Art, roll 
weight. I've gotten a couple of emails from Paul today, and we're 
trying to address the differences in your PC driver, and my Mac 
driver. I took your settings in that prior post, and altered them to 
show what I'm doing on my Mac. Like you say, this is in no way 
the final setting, but in the last halfhour, I've made some definite 
progress in refining the contrast and density levels.

--------------------------------------------------
PRELIMINARY EPSON 7000 SETTINGS
(Mark Tucker Version, 9/11/2001)

PAGE SETUP
No Transfer alterations (everything at default)

 
STYLUS 7000 PRINTER SETTINGS (Mac)
Print Space = Same as Source
Source Space = ColorMatch RGB
  
PROPERTIES
Media Type = Photo Paper
Ink = Color
Mode = VIVID 
Print Quality = Superfine - 1440dpi
Microweave = (Mine is grayed out)
Super = (Again, grayed out)
Color Management = Color Controls
Gamma = 2.2
All Slider initially set to 0 (Even Magenta)
-------------------------------------------------

WORKFLOW
1. Load Grayscale Image.
2. Convert to RGB.
3. Load Roark Curve (I like "vm7k-w6.acv").
4. Print with above settings.

-------------------------------------------------

I just wrote to Paul and commented that this same image, 
printed with the MIS hextones looks flatter/greyer/less punchy 
than the same image printed with the MIS 6color dyes. But it's 
very early yet, and probably way too soon to judge anything. But 
the neutrality of the color is sweet; obviously no crossover at all.

-Mark Tucker

Mark and Mike,

I have put your two messages under Files>Info on BW printing >Inks and 
related workflows >Epson 7000 MIS Variable Inks Workflow .

I realize it's all preliminary, but this makes it easier to go back and refer.

Antonis

Mark,

Why are you using ColorMatch RGB as your source space?  Everyone else 
is apparently using sRGB as the default colorspace when using the VM 
inks (Photoshop 5 defaults).  Also, ColorMatch RGB has a gamma of 
1.8, but you've set your gamma at 2.2.

Can you explain?  (I'm using the VM inks on a Mac G4, OS 9.1, Epson 
1200 and am interested if I'm missing something here.)

Also, when everyone says they convert from grayscale to RGB do you 
just do a mode change or do you do a profile to profile conversion?

Thanks, Howard.

> --------------------------------------------------
> PRELIMINARY EPSON 7000 SETTINGS
> (Mark Tucker Version, 9/11/2001)
> 
> PAGE SETUP
> No Transfer alterations (everything at default)
> 
>  
> STYLUS 7000 PRINTER SETTINGS (Mac)
> Print Space = Same as Source
> Source Space = ColorMatch RGB
>   
> PROPERTIES
> Media Type = Photo Paper
> Ink = Color
> Mode = VIVID 
> Print Quality = Superfine - 1440dpi
> Microweave = (Mine is grayed out)
> Super = (Again, grayed out)
> Color Management = Color Controls
> Gamma = 2.2
> All Slider initially set to 0 (Even Magenta)
> -------------------------------------------------
> 
> WORKFLOW
> 1. Load Grayscale Image.
> 2. Convert to RGB.
> 3. Load Roark Curve (I like "vm7k-w6.acv").
> 4. Print with above settings.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------
> 
> I just wrote to Paul and commented that this same image, 
> printed with the MIS hextones looks flatter/greyer/less punchy 
> than the same image printed with the MIS 6color dyes. But it's 
> very early yet, and probably way too soon to judge anything. But 
> the neutrality of the color is sweet; obviously no crossover at all.
> 
> -Mark Tucker

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., hslavitt@c... wrote:
> Mark,
> Why are you using ColorMatch RGB as your source space?  

Howard,

I'm using ColorMatchRGB as my source space because I haven't 
learned otherwise. It is my default working space because I use 
a PressView 21SR monitor, and that is Radius' preferred 
working space, due to their gamut. Again, I am now on Day Two 
of Variable Hex, so I'm open to any and all correction. I had 
several emails to Paul regarding the difference in Gamma. He 
said that the current curves were based on PC gamma, which is 
2.2. Last night, he implied that the curves would have to be 
reworked for the Mac, due to this. I just set my gamma to 2.2 in 
the Epson print driver to try to emulate his existing curve. 

(This difference in gamma between Mac and PC has always 
boggled my mind. In theory, I always wondered: "How could I 
prepare a file on a Mac, which has 1.8 default gamma, and then 
Fedex that same file to a client who happens to open it on a PC, 
and then not have the file look too dark/too light on their 
machine?" But this is another thread I'm sure).


> Also, when everyone says they convert from grayscale to RGB 
>do you 
> just do a mode change or do you do a profile to profile 
>conversion?

I simply to a Mode Conversion, from Grayscale to RGB. When 
you do that, and then you load Paul's curve, you can go into the 
three RGB channels and see his work. It is truly over my head, 
what he's done, because each curve has about ten or twelve 
points along the curve that he's added, and each one is VERY 
crooked. Imagine a sailboat tacking in a bay, and that's how they 
look. I have no idea how he did it, but it's pretty close for me, even 
at only Day Two. Maybe a tad flat and not very exciting overall, but 
I think that might be due to the PC/Mac difference. If FedEx is 
flying today, I am Fedexing Paul a bunch of prints, just to get his 
gut feeling. (Isn't it weird to think: IF fedex is flying...)

-http://marktucker.com

PS: Also, on Jim Davis' thing, I agree with him that that is just his 
default "signature". It is not truly Spam. It might be a bit bold for 
this group though; our tolerance is rather low, obviously! But I've 
read his posts for months on Epson9000 list, and he is a valued 
contributor. Just a thought...

Mark wrote:
> I'm using ColorMatchRGB as my source space because I haven't
> learned otherwise. It is my default working space because I use
> a PressView 21SR monitor, and that is Radius' preferred
> working space, due to their gamut. Again, I am now on Day Two
> of Variable Hex, so I'm open to any and all correction. I had
> several emails to Paul regarding the difference in Gamma. He
> said that the current curves were based on PC gamma, which is
> 2.2. Last night, he implied that the curves would have to be
> reworked for the Mac, due to this. I just set my gamma to 2.2 in
> the Epson print driver to try to emulate his existing curve.

The colormatchRGB is a print standard color space. Your PressView sets it as
default because that is the environment those monitors are typically used
in. The Monitor's actual gamut is in the sRGB space.  I'm curious as to why
anyone printing their images rather than just viewing them is using the sRGB
color space.  This must be something to do with Paul's curves which I have
not used yet.  I use Adobe (1998) RGB (or the Bruce profile as I like the
reds) to print to Epson or Offset Press, ColorMatch RGB' has a large gamut.

> (This difference in gamma between Mac and PC has always
> boggled my mind. In theory, I always wondered: "How could I
> prepare a file on a Mac, which has 1.8 default gamma, and then
> Fedex that same file to a client who happens to open it on a PC,
> and then not have the file look too dark/too light on their
> machine?" But this is another thread I'm sure).

The gamma difference between Macs and PC's is strictly monitor based. It is
difficult sometimes to get a good web image balanced for an average gamma
between the two but you can view the difference in your file from the soft
proof feature set to either Mac or PC gamma's. The file may look different
on the different systems monitors but it will not print differently because
the actual value info of the image does not change.

>> Also, when everyone says they convert from grayscale to RGB
>> do you 
>> just do a mode change or do you do a profile to profile
>> conversion?
> 
> I simply to a Mode Conversion, from Grayscale to RGB. When
> you do that, and then you load Paul's curve, you can go into the
> three RGB channels and see his work. It is truly over my head,
> what he's done, because each curve has about ten or twelve
> points along the curve that he's added, and each one is VERY

A profile to profile conversion gives you more control over your conversion.
On the other hand if you always convert a file the same way, ie: using
"Perceptual with black point compensation" "or using a 2.2/2.0/1.8 gamma for
gray scale" then you can set that up in your conversion features in "color
settings" and be confident that your file is converted the way you like from
the mode conversion.  Otherwise it is converted from the default settings.

>I think that might be due to the PC/Mac difference. If FedEx is
>flying today, I am Fedexing Paul a bunch of prints, just to get his
>gut feeling. (Isn't it weird to think: IF fedex is flying...)

Yes, numbing and still not sinking in.

Best, Carolyn

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> wrote:

> I'm using ColorMatchRGB as my source space because I haven't 
> learned otherwise. It is my default working space because I use 
> a PressView 21SR monitor, and that is Radius' preferred 
> working space, due to their gamut. 

As Carolyn pointed out, you are not bound by anyone's defaults. Adobe 1998 
has gained popularity and has the added benefit of 2.2 gamma. I suggest 
reading Real World Photoshop for a far more lucid explanation.


> I simply to a Mode Conversion, from Grayscale to RGB.

Just beware (be aware) of the assumptions that photoshop uses to make that 
conversion. It is not an "objective" switch set in stone. Your gray set up plays a 
part and so does your RGB set up. All this before Paul's curves kick in. Maybe 
you knew that, but I know many who don't.

Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Antonis Ricos" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote: 
> Just beware (be aware) of the assumptions that photoshop 
uses to make that 
> conversion. It is not an "objective" switch set in stone. Your gray 
set up plays a 
> part and so does your RGB set up. All this before Paul's curves 
kick in. Maybe 
> you knew that, but I know many who don't.

Just shows you what you don't know. I deleted that part of Mike's 
rules because I didn't think ColorSettings had an effect on what I 
thought was a simple conversion from Grayscale to RGB. I 
guess it obviously converts it to your working space profile, which 
in my case is ColorMatchRGB. And my GreySpace is "Gray 
Gamma 1.8".

I know that most people use either Bruce or Adobe98 as their 
working space. I just always thought I'd do better with 
ColorMatch, since it seemed to be better suited to my monitor.

Wonder why Apple chose 1.8 instead of 2.2? (Maybe just 
because they COULD choose something to be different from 
Windows). Why can't we all just be the same....?

MT

Antonis, I'm just getting started with the MIS VM HEX on a PC system 
and I don't recall this caveat being mentioned previously on this 
list or elsewhere. Can you elaborate or direct me to further 
information that would help me understand what I need to be aware of?
Thanks...

Tom Keesling
Intelligent Design, Inc.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Antonis Ricos" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:

> Just beware (be aware) of the assumptions that photoshop uses to 
make that 
> conversion. It is not an "objective" switch set in stone. Your gray 
set up plays a 
> part and so does your RGB set up. All this before Paul's curves 
kick in. Maybe 

> you knew that, but I know many who don't.
> 
> Antonis

> I know that most people use either Bruce or Adobe98 as their 
> working space. I just always thought I'd do better with 
> ColorMatch, since it seemed to be better suited to my monitor.


Even if that was the case (it is not - as Carolyn pointed out), the monitor 
should not be the determining device for color calculations. Rather the input or 
output devices should.

Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., tom.keesling@a... wrote:
> Antonis, I'm just getting started with the MIS VM HEX on a PC system 
> and I don't recall this caveat being mentioned previously on this 
> list or elsewhere. Can you elaborate or direct me to further 
> information that would help me understand what I need to be aware of?
> Thanks...
> 
> Tom Keesling
> Intelligent Design, Inc.

Tom,
I highly recommend Real World Photoshop by Fraser and Blatner. 
Not to mention... the stinking Adobe manual <g>!


Antonis

> Not to mention... the stinking Adobe manual <g>!
> 
> 
> Antonis


I'm always shy to bring that one up! <g> <g>


Carolyn

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Antonis Ricos" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> Even if that was the case (it is not - as Carolyn pointed out), the 
> monitor 
> should not be the determining device for color calculations.

Antonis/Carolyn,
 
This has been a good thread. I will get that book. Thanks for all 
the information on this topic. I will probably go back to square 
one on all my color settings.

> Rather the input or 
> output devices should.

I rarely know how I'm gonna output a file when I'm retouching it. I 
tend to think that I'm working in some kind of "raw mode" when 
I'm doing the basic burning and dodging and contrast and "look" 
of the image. I always scan in Gray, and do all the work in that 
mode. Then I convert to RGB when I start the toning. I generally 
embed the ColorMatchRGB profile when I'm working in RGB; 
Gamma 1.8 when I'm still in Gray. Once I get it ready, THEN I 
think about how I'm gonna output it: either to the 7000, or to 
CMYK for a job, etc. Do you work/think like that? Or do you 
scan/burn/everything with an intended use in mind, from the very 
start?

> Antonis/Carolyn,
> 
> This has been a good thread. I will get that book. Thanks for all
> the information on this topic. I will probably go back to square
> one on all my color settings.

Mark,

I have done that more than once. Especially when PS6 came out and I had to
rethink everything!  That book Antonis mentioned is extremely good... I have
the PS5 version. Many dog-ears good!  I also like the PS Bibles, easy to
find info for what interests you.


> I rarely know how I'm gonna output a file when I'm retouching it. I
> tend to think that I'm working in some kind of "raw mode" when
> I'm doing the basic burning and dodging and contrast and "look"
> of the image. I always scan in Gray, and do all the work in that
> mode. Then I convert to RGB when I start the toning. I generally
> embed the ColorMatchRGB profile when I'm working in RGB;
> Gamma 1.8 when I'm still in Gray. Once I get it ready, THEN I
> think about how I'm gonna output it: either to the 7000, or to
> CMYK for a job, etc. Do you work/think like that? Or do you
> scan/burn/everything with an intended use in mind, from the very
> start?


I personally do both.

 If I "know" where the file will be output I edit in the output device's
profile. If I am unsure of the output devise or if the file will be output
to more than one devise then I save the file in it's original space (Adobe
(1998)RGB or Gamma 1.8) and work on copies in the color space/profile as
required.

Best,
Carolyn

Antonis,

Thanks for the reply. I guess I read more into your comments than I 
should have. I thought you were suggesting there was something unique 
about the MIS VM HEX inks that I should be taking into consideration--
something that I had missed altogether. Obviously, I was mistaken. <G>

I already have the newest edition of the Fraser & Blatner book and, 
of course, the manual. I've spent a lot more time with the F&B book 
than with the manual. <G>

Tom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Antonis Ricos" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., tom.keesling@a... wrote:
> > Antonis, I'm just getting started with the MIS VM HEX on a PC 
system 
> > and I don't recall this caveat being mentioned previously on this 
> > list or elsewhere. Can you elaborate or direct me to further 
> > information that would help me understand what I need to be aware 
of?

> > Thanks...
> > 
> > Tom Keesling
> > Intelligent Design, Inc.
> 
> Tom,
> I highly recommend Real World Photoshop by Fraser and Blatner. 
> Not to mention... the stinking Adobe manual <g>!
> 
> 
> Antonis

For a black and white group, you guys sure are talking a lot about 
color spaces...    : )

The colormatch space is a perfectly good, wide gamut space to use. I 
believe the radius monitors are "optimized" for it. Of course, they 
probably do just as fine with any of the other ones...  : )

What I hate is having to drop to a lower gamut space when I want to 
export a jpeg for the web (with color images).  Is there a preference 
in Photoshop that I am missing where I specify a space to use with the 
"save for web" option? What exactly is going on there?

-mikeH


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn <carolyn@u...> 
wrote:

> 
> > Antonis/Carolyn,
> > 
> > This has been a good thread. I will get that book. Thanks for all
> > the information on this topic. I will probably go back to square
> > one on all my color settings.
> 
> Mark,
> 
> I have done that more than once. Especially when PS6 came out and I had to
> rethink everything!  That book Antonis mentioned is extremely good... I have
> the PS5 version. Many dog-ears good!  I also like the PS Bibles, easy to
> find info for what interests you.
> 
> 
> > I rarely know how I'm gonna output a file when I'm retouching it. I
> > tend to think that I'm working in some kind of "raw mode" when
> > I'm doing the basic burning and dodging and contrast and "look"
> > of the image. I always scan in Gray, and do all the work in that
> > mode. Then I convert to RGB when I start the toning. I generally
> > embed the ColorMatchRGB profile when I'm working in RGB;
> > Gamma 1.8 when I'm still in Gray. Once I get it ready, THEN I
> > think about how I'm gonna output it: either to the 7000, or to
> > CMYK for a job, etc. Do you work/think like that? Or do you
> > scan/burn/everything with an intended use in mind, from the very
> > start?
> 
> 
> I personally do both.
> 
>  If I "know" where the file will be output I edit in the output device's
> profile. If I am unsure of the output devise or if the file will be output
> to more than one devise then I save the file in it's original space (Adobe
> (1998)RGB or Gamma 1.8) and work on copies in the color space/profile as
> required.
> 
> Best,
> Carolyn

Mark,

as I have written here before, I find it far more convenient to do all the work in 
RGB, then drop to grayscale and print. This works for piezo and for all halftone 
bw output . I have not used MIS inks and Paul's curves, but if I did, this 
workflow would fit right in. Depending on the device you may drop to CMYK or 
other spaces instead of gs.

The benefit of this workflow is that you have a master file in RGB and then 
depending on what paper/ink/printer or other device (LVT, LightJet etc) you 
use, you just load a gray custom dot gain, convert a copy of the RGB to gs and 
you are done. This can be a PS action, too.

I realize there are other choices people make along the way, so I am not 
presenting this as the bible of workflows. Just one choice. Keep in mind, that 
my "day job" is running my retouching/prepress studio, in which several 
workflows have to be set up and maintained over time for all sorts of different 
jobs. Best advice: keep a log as detailed as your patience allows!

Antonis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> wrote:

 I always scan in Gray, and do all the work in that 

> mode. Then I convert to RGB when I start the toning. I generally 
> embed the ColorMatchRGB profile when I'm working in RGB; 
> Gamma 1.8 when I'm still in Gray. Once I get it ready, THEN I 
> think about how I'm gonna output it: either to the 7000, or to 
> CMYK for a job, etc. Do you work/think like that? Or do you 
> scan/burn/everything with an intended use in mind, from the very 
> start?

Carolyn,

glad to see we agree on our reading as well as our workflows!!


Antonis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn <carolyn@u...> 
wrote:
 That book Antonis mentioned is extremely good... I have

> the PS5 version. Many dog-ears good!  I also like the PS Bibles, easy to
> find info for what interests you.

> I personally do both.
> 
>  If I "know" where the file will be output I edit in the output device's
> profile. If I am unsure of the output devise or if the file will be output
> to more than one devise then I save the file in it's original space (Adobe
> (1998)RGB or Gamma 1.8) and work on copies in the color space/profile as
> required.
> 
> Best,
> Carolyn

Mike, 

> For a black and white group, you guys sure are talking a lot about
> color spaces...    : )


> The colormatch space is a perfectly good, wide gamut space to use. I
> believe the radius monitors are "optimized" for it. Of course, they
> probably do just as fine with any of the other ones...  : )

From what I understand they are indeed optimized for that space because the
press world has in the past used that space exclusively. This is not the
case anymore.  As Antonis mentioned, the Adobe (1998) RGB space is gaining
popularity.  

I mistakingly said that Colormatch RGB was larger, I was thinking of Wide
Gamut RGB... in actuality Adobe (1998) RGB is the larger space, it
incorporates more of the cyan/green/yellow in the CIE XYZ model... sorry.


> What I hate is having to drop to a lower gamut space when I want to
> export a jpeg for the web (with color images).  Is there a preference
> in Photoshop that I am missing where I specify a space to use with the
> "save for web" option? What exactly is going on there?

Now we are off topic... <g>   I haven't seen one... I convert my images
destined for web or email with the sRGB IE...2.1 profile.

I hesitate getting into any discussion with you after following your bit
depth talk on the PiezoBW list!.. you scare me. ;-)

Carolyn

Antonis,

Agreeing with you makes me think I'm doing something right!  I just wish I
had your gift for the written word!!  :-)

Carolyn

> 
> Carolyn,
> 
> glad to see we agree on our reading as well as our workflows!!
> 
> 
> Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn <carolyn@u...> 
wrote:
> Antonis,
> 
> Agreeing with you makes me think I'm doing something right!  I just wish I
> had your gift for the written word!!  :-)
> 
> Carolyn


Well, now, we are not allowed to exaggerate on this list...

; - )

Antonis

Mark,

Have you been noticing a broad, repeating wavy mottle pattern in the deep
blacks. It looks
almost as if the paper is suffering from paper curl but it seems that the
print head is 
not spraying evenly slightly missing areas every 1/2" or so.

I checked with another new 7000/VM user and in addition to the lack of black
problem he's also 
experienced the black mottle problem and swtiched to the FS black and both
problems 
disappaeared.

Have you heard of this fix and/or are you experiencing the mottle?

Are you considering switching to the FS black?

I really don't want to dump the entire set just to switch the black cart and
then have the same problem
continue.  I'm about ready to can the 7000.

Thanks,

Rick Murai

--------------------------------------------------
PRELIMINARY EPSON 7000 SETTINGS
(Mark Tucker Version, 9/11/2001)

PAGE SETUP
No Transfer alterations (everything at default)


STYLUS 7000 PRINTER SETTINGS (Mac)
Print Space = Same as Source
Source Space = ColorMatch RGB

PROPERTIES
Media Type = Photo Paper
Ink = Color
Mode = VIVID 
Print Quality = Superfine - 1440dpi
Microweave = (Mine is grayed out)
Super = (Again, grayed out)
Color Management = Color Controls
Gamma = 2.2
All Slider initially set to 0 (Even Magenta)
-------------------------------------------------

WORKFLOW
1. Load Grayscale Image.
2. Convert to RGB.
3. Load Roark Curve (I like "vm7k-w6.acv").
4. Print with above settings.

-------------------------------------------------

I just wrote to Paul and commented that this same image,
printed with the MIS hextones looks flatter/greyer/less punchy
than the same image printed with the MIS 6color dyes. But it's
very early yet, and probably way too soon to judge anything. But
the neutrality of the color is sweet; obviously no crossover at all.

-Mark Tucker












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]