Digital BW, The Print

have you had a profile made for the 2200??

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: <dtilson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:23 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Trying Black Only printing


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver
> <daniel@p...>" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> > If my Gray Balancer software is switched on when I do BO printing I
> > get really ugly transitions in the highlights just like you
> describe.
> > Check if there is any type of color management software runnning in
> > the background that interferes with your printing. I'm not familiar
> > with the Canon, so I'm afraid I can't be more specific.
> >
> > BO prints can look extremely good, I have one of Clayton's prints
> and
> > you couldn't possibly ask for anything better. Smooth tones,
> excellent
> > shadows and highlights, and a certain sharpness in small details
> that
> > look different from full-color BW prints. Yes, the dots are there,
> but
> > they're not obvious unless you're looking really close at the
> picture,
> > and even then I don't think they detract from the overall impression
> > in any way. There are many ways do make a great print, and I think
> BO
> > is definitely one of them. I would do more of them myself if I could
> > get some neutral black inks for my 2100.
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jeades947
> > <jeades1@s...>" <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > > I have tried to get the hang of black only printing as described
> by
> > > Clayton Jones so well.But, when I try this with my Canon S750
> > > printer; I fail to get any values above Zone 7 to have any body
> in
> > > them. They are all blank white. I have tried increasing the
> > > intensity of the black ink from within the printer properties
> > > without success at all. I even went to transfer setting and
> adjusted
> > > the curve in the direction I thought would give me the desired
> > > results, without any avail. I indicated to the printer it was to
> > > print in grayscale mode and had assigned Dot Gain 30% with
> > > Photoshop.I was using Quadtone printing very well till I read
> about
> > > this which would seem to save a bundle of cash from not having to
> > > buy color cartridges every two weeks. That will break a rich man
> > > soon. What am I obviously doing wrong????? Back to Best Buy
> tomorrow
> > > for more ink to experiment with. I must have made 30 prints today
> > > trying to get it right.
>
> I just acquired an Epson 2200 and tried black only printing using the
> Photo black ink and Epson Premium glossy paper. Although the
> sharpness and tonal gradations are excellent, the color of the print
> is very warm -- objectionably so for my taste. I am about to try the
> matte black and a matte paper such as EAM. I am a long time user of
> Piezo inks and get very satisfactory results from my Epson 1160 with
> piezotone inks. Is there some way of getting neutral B&W prints from
> the 2200 without investing in something like Imageprint 5?
>
> David Tilson
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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>
>
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>
>

No. Will good custom profiles solve the problem?

Dave


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> have you had a profile made for the 2200??
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <dtilson@m...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:23 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Trying Black Only printing
> 
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver
> > <daniel@p...>" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> > > If my Gray Balancer software is switched on when I do BO 
printing I
> > > get really ugly transitions in the highlights just like you
> > describe.
> > > Check if there is any type of color management software 
runnning in
> > > the background that interferes with your printing. I'm not 
familiar
> > > with the Canon, so I'm afraid I can't be more specific.
> > >
> > > BO prints can look extremely good, I have one of Clayton's 
prints
> > and
> > > you couldn't possibly ask for anything better. Smooth tones,
> > excellent
> > > shadows and highlights, and a certain sharpness in small details
> > that
> > > look different from full-color BW prints. Yes, the dots are 
there,
> > but
> > > they're not obvious unless you're looking really close at the
> > picture,
> > > and even then I don't think they detract from the overall 
impression
> > > in any way. There are many ways do make a great print, and I 
think
> > BO
> > > is definitely one of them. I would do more of them myself if I 
could
> > > get some neutral black inks for my 2100.
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jeades947
> > > <jeades1@s...>" <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > > > I have tried to get the hang of black only printing as 
described
> > by
> > > > Clayton Jones so well.But, when I try this with my Canon S750
> > > > printer; I fail to get any values above Zone 7 to have any 
body
> > in
> > > > them. They are all blank white. I have tried increasing the
> > > > intensity of the black ink from within the printer properties
> > > > without success at all. I even went to transfer setting and
> > adjusted
> > > > the curve in the direction I thought would give me the desired
> > > > results, without any avail. I indicated to the printer it was 
to
> > > > print in grayscale mode and had assigned Dot Gain 30% with
> > > > Photoshop.I was using Quadtone printing very well till I read
> > about
> > > > this which would seem to save a bundle of cash from not 
having to
> > > > buy color cartridges every two weeks. That will break a rich 
man
> > > > soon. What am I obviously doing wrong????? Back to Best Buy
> > tomorrow
> > > > for more ink to experiment with. I must have made 30 prints 
today
> > > > trying to get it right.
> >
> > I just acquired an Epson 2200 and tried black only printing using 
the
> > Photo black ink and Epson Premium glossy paper. Although the
> > sharpness and tonal gradations are excellent, the color of the 
print
> > is very warm -- objectionably so for my taste. I am about to try 
the
> > matte black and a matte paper such as EAM. I am a long time user 
of
> > Piezo inks and get very satisfactory results from my Epson 1160 
with
> > piezotone inks. Is there some way of getting neutral B&W prints 
from
> > the 2200 without investing in something like Imageprint 5?
> >
> > David Tilson
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

it is a good place to start. Unlike piezo - if you try and use coloured ink
to print greyscale the inks have to be firing together so that a 50% grey is
a 50% grey without a colour cast. A RIP would allow you to linearise the
inks, AND do custom profiles. IP5 will NOT allow you to either linearise the
inks for your printer OR do custom profiles - you need them to do it for
you. But even they cannot linearise the inks. Also IP5 is not a CMYK RIP,
only RGB so it doesn't have the control over the blacks that a true CMYK RIP
would have. But without a custom profile for your printer/ink/paper combo
you really don't stand a chance of BW. You'll also need to profile your
monitor too to make sure that the casts you see on screen are 'true'.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: <dtilson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:52 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Trying Black Only printing


> No. Will good custom profiles solve the problem?
>
> Dave
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas"
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > have you had a profile made for the 2200??
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <dtilson@m...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:23 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Trying Black Only printing
> >
> >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver
> > > <daniel@p...>" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> > > > If my Gray Balancer software is switched on when I do BO
> printing I
> > > > get really ugly transitions in the highlights just like you
> > > describe.
> > > > Check if there is any type of color management software
> runnning in
> > > > the background that interferes with your printing. I'm not
> familiar
> > > > with the Canon, so I'm afraid I can't be more specific.
> > > >
> > > > BO prints can look extremely good, I have one of Clayton's
> prints
> > > and
> > > > you couldn't possibly ask for anything better. Smooth tones,
> > > excellent
> > > > shadows and highlights, and a certain sharpness in small details
> > > that
> > > > look different from full-color BW prints. Yes, the dots are
> there,
> > > but
> > > > they're not obvious unless you're looking really close at the
> > > picture,
> > > > and even then I don't think they detract from the overall
> impression
> > > > in any way. There are many ways do make a great print, and I
> think
> > > BO
> > > > is definitely one of them. I would do more of them myself if I
> could
> > > > get some neutral black inks for my 2100.
> > > >
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jeades947
> > > > <jeades1@s...>" <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > > > > I have tried to get the hang of black only printing as
> described
> > > by
> > > > > Clayton Jones so well.But, when I try this with my Canon S750
> > > > > printer; I fail to get any values above Zone 7 to have any
> body
> > > in
> > > > > them. They are all blank white. I have tried increasing the
> > > > > intensity of the black ink from within the printer properties
> > > > > without success at all. I even went to transfer setting and
> > > adjusted
> > > > > the curve in the direction I thought would give me the desired
> > > > > results, without any avail. I indicated to the printer it was
> to
> > > > > print in grayscale mode and had assigned Dot Gain 30% with
> > > > > Photoshop.I was using Quadtone printing very well till I read
> > > about
> > > > > this which would seem to save a bundle of cash from not
> having to
> > > > > buy color cartridges every two weeks. That will break a rich
> man
> > > > > soon. What am I obviously doing wrong????? Back to Best Buy
> > > tomorrow
> > > > > for more ink to experiment with. I must have made 30 prints
> today
> > > > > trying to get it right.
> > >
> > > I just acquired an Epson 2200 and tried black only printing using
> the
> > > Photo black ink and Epson Premium glossy paper. Although the
> > > sharpness and tonal gradations are excellent, the color of the
> print
> > > is very warm -- objectionably so for my taste. I am about to try
> the
> > > matte black and a matte paper such as EAM. I am a long time user
> of
> > > Piezo inks and get very satisfactory results from my Epson 1160
> with
> > > piezotone inks. Is there some way of getting neutral B&W prints
> from
> > > the 2200 without investing in something like Imageprint 5?
> > >
> > > David Tilson
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same
> > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I haven't been following this thread closely but for those with magenta 
problems perhaps this link will be usefull.

http://www.rgbnet.co.uk/ilyons/epson2100/2100_2.htm

if it's been put forth I apologize.

Also, black only printing (is there a reason you can't come up with a 
better acronym? <g>)... Black only on my 2200 using matte black 
produces a lovely warm warm print only much to dotty for my tastes, 
however I love the tone and find it similar to piezo carbon sepia.  I 
agree that the black only prints from this printer are far superior to 
those from older models, EX, 1160, 1200, and 2000P that I use. But, 
still not smooth enough for most of my images.

I can achieve a fairly nuetral print without RIP, and so far without 
profiles (which are to come) by using Carl's method, throwing all that 
I know about color management and all that I've used for years out the 
window, I print using Printer management and Photo realistic. The BW 
prints are very nice.  Yes, metamerism, Yes, a bit of a color crossover 
in effect, but nice.

As far as comparisons of my 2200 to my 2000P... well, if you want to 
see what unacceptable metamerism is, stick the output of those beasts 
side by side...

Still, I'll stick with Piezo for most BW output.
Carolyn
---
http://www.carolynfrayn.com

Hi Steven,

Thank you very much for the kind words regarding my BO prints. Sorry...haven't been too active on the list, lately; as a matter of fact
I'm about 400 messages behind as I type this reply.

To any list member contemplating BO printing:

Clayton has stated many times, and I fully agree, that BO printing is a way to get started with quadtone printing and learn quite a bit at the same
time. Generally, frustration with the process will be minimal and, in most cases, the results obtained will be very nice indeed. If done correctly,
and the BO process is working well for you, the results can be stunning! Have you seen one of Clayton's prints?

I personally have made a few BO prints that I believe would lose nothing when compared to my standard MIS VM quads. On the other hand, I've
made many more VM quadtones that just look more "full" than a BO version. I think it really comes down to the image in question...some seem to
work better as BO and some work better printed via the full inkset.

Thank you,
Alan Huntley

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steven Karafyllakis <stevek@...> 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:19 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Trying Black Only printing


  Hi Charles;
  Don't be discouraged by claims that it isn't good enough- I've seen 
  great prints by Clayton and (I think) a list member named Huntley? 
  he shoots 8x10 and his stuff was georgeous. And for some reason his 
  1160 did a far better job of it than my 1280, as does Claytons 870. 
  I think a lot depends on the individual printer and model, and we 
  never had anything except our Epsons to test this out on.

  Just the same, let me offer a suggestion. Clayton recomends setting 
  the printer profile (under color management in the print dialogue) 
  to 'same as source'. That's fine if the base setting of 'Dot-gain 
  20' or Gray gamma 2.2 works for you. However,the source profile and 
  printer profile in effect cancel each other out if you have to move 
  off-center and you leave it on 'same as source'. You need to keep 
  the printer profile on DG-20 (or move it downwards if you need 
  darker) while you move the source profile upwards. In other words, 
  they have to move in opposite directions to have an effect on your 
  tonal values. 

  Bear in mind that these are just simple curves. A DG-20 means you 
  take a linear curve graph, grab it at the 50% point and move it up 
  to the 70% percent point. If your particular image needs a more 
  complex adjustment, you'll still have to apply that as a curve 
  yourself. All you can do is find a 'center' that gets you close,then 
  you fine-tune as always.

  Best luck,

  Steve Karafyllakis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]