Digital BW, The Print

Steve,

>>...  The new UC clone inkset as a base for a new VM
>>(modified with some even better inks) is a winner.

>... is this under development do you know?  Is this the basis
>for the new 'RC compatible' set that is due in the next few weeks?

I designed the inkset and gave the formula to MIS.  It's ready to go as far
as I'm concerned.  MIS does it's own tests of inks to be sure there are not
going to be any surprises down the road (although any new product may have
characteristics that did not show up in tests), and I assume that is what
they are doing now before they produce the inkset.

The inkset is based mostly on MIS 7600 (UC clone) inks.  The MIS 7600 light
black did very well in my fade tests, is slightly warmer than the original
MIS quads, and is close to the right density.  It is a pure carbon ink, I'm
told -- and it looks and tests like it.  I fortified it with Epson Archival
K.  So, I think in the real world of moisture and oxidizing gasses, it'll
have a life that is longer than a pure carbon ink but shorter than the
coated carbon Epson Archival quads.

The midtones are all RC compatible.  You'll have to switch blacks to switch
paper types and get the dmax you're used to.

On my 1160 the standard vm curves all work fine.

The inkset is shifted slightly to the warm side.  This means that the nc
curve is more neutral.  The original vm "nc" curve was cool to account for
the expected warming.  The new inkset warms only slightly and at about
1/10th the rate of the old one, so no offsetting coolness is needed.

With a cool or cold curve, you can still go very cold.  However, the warm
curve is closer to the pure carbon -- probably just like the PiezoTone
sepia -- but not a true sepia such as the vm-s inkset can achieve.

The neutral tone is closer to the PiezoTone selenium.  Some have objected to
what they see as a greenish bias in the current vm inkset.  This is gone
now.

What is needed now is an easy way for people to switch between black inks.
I think Robert (correct?) is using a continuous inking system with no black
line/tube so that he can just pop in RC K or Matte K individual carts as
needed.  There will be a variety of black inks for either paper.  The
workflows are fairly tolerant of different density blacks.  The deep shadow
contrast is mostly what is affected.

I hope this new vm responds to a number of suggestions that people have had.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

----- Original Message -----

From: <stephen.bate@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 5:58 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Paul: Black ink Question


> .  The new UC clone inkset as a base for a new VM
> > (modified with some even better inks) is a winner.
> >
> > Paul
> > http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
> Hi Paul, is this under development do you know?  Is this the basis
> for the new 'RC compatible' set that is due in the next few weeks?
>
> My lines are running dry and I am loathe to buy more bottles until
> the new formulation is out.
>
> Steve.

MIS replied yesterday that the ink will soon be ready.
I had ordered Epson Ultrachrome carts to do my own mixing but this is far
more convenient and cheaper.

Ernst

Thanks Paul, amazing that occaisonally the right thing comes along 
just when you need it ;-)

I am in total agreement with Julian - over here the Ilford smooth is 
extremely cheap and although coating and peel off have been royal 
pains, I do love the look.

Can't wait to try the new stuff, I will start pestering MIS.
Steve.


> 
> I hope this new vm responds to a number of suggestions that people 
have had.

> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, Clayton - thanks.

I've tried adjusting the curves near max density, and although it helps, it 
still lacks the snap of the old paper.  I think it has something to do with 
the color, it affects the apparent depth of the image.  I have been using 
Generations black, and have used Epson and MIS dye blacks.  But the new paper 
affects all of them. Heavyweight Mat still give the good blacks, so I may 
return to it, except the color of the inks are noticeably cooler.

Paul, if I switch to the VM sepia inkset, can I cool the color down to the MW 
curve of the standard VM set (which I am using now)?  In other words, do the 
color of the 2 sets overlap?  Would I only need to change the M and PM inks 
in the hextone set?

I'm with Jerry on the mat vs RC paper, but acknowledge that under glass 
things even out.  A while back, I tried the MIS original quads, with Epson 
dye black on Epson photo paper, as well as on premium luster, glossy and 
semigloss.  I like the surface of the photo paper better than the RC papers - 
not so shiny.  Blacks were great with the dye black, but the prints turned 
warm quickly. (They also had an interesting surface, I called it an Epson 
Daguerreotype!  Though this was not noticable under glass.)  I have some 
samples of the pigment Ilford pearl, and will try them when I get a chance.  
One thing I found with the photopaper is that when the print gets wavy under 
the glass due to humidity at outdoor shows, you really see it.  The mat paper 
doesn't show it at all.  Perhaps the RC papers stay flatter than the photo 
paper?

Tom Wells
toliwel@...
towells@...
twellsphoto.com

Tom,

>...[EEM] lacks the snap of the old [EAM] paper.  ...
>I have been using Generations black, and have used
>Epson and MIS dye blacks.  But the new paper
>affects all of them. ...

>Paul, if I switch to the VM sepia inkset, can I cool the color
>down to the MW curve of the standard VM set (which I am using now)?
>In other words, do the color of the 2 sets overlap?

Yes, the vm-s ranges from neutral to sepia -- just by coincidence, the tones
I use.

> Would I only need to change the M and PM inks in the hextone set?

No, the vm-s is a totally different inkset except for the black.  The gray
inks in the vm-s are the FS-N inks.  They are a hair cool and do not warm up
on EEM/EAM the way the standard vm inks do.

>...[RC prints] had an interesting surface, I called it an Epson
>Daguerreotype!

There can be some weird effects with RC papers.  It turns out that some of
these are due to the base the pigments are suspended in.  The new base MIS
uses solves much of the bronzing and other problems I was running into with
some of the older materials.

>... when the print gets wavy under
>the glass due to humidity at outdoor shows, you really see it.
>The mat paper doesn't show it at all. ...

Yes, the glossier the surface, the more waviness is going to show up.  I
don't like glass, but matte under glass is the standard, and it has numerous
advantages.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

>Tom wrote,
>
>  
>
>>...[EEM] lacks the snap of the old [EAM] paper.  ...
>>I have been using Generations black, and have used
>>Epson and MIS dye blacks.  But the new paper
>>affects all of them. ...
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
My advice is to hold off on using EEM for now..

There are shortages of it being reported which would seem to indicate 
Japan has put a hold on shipping new stock. One way to interpret that 
would be that they are finally acknowledging they have a problem and 
trying to fix it..

Conjecture offlist is currently focusing on:

1)    The possibility that Mitsubishi was using a new coating machine / 
workflow.

2)    They bought uncoated substrate from:

a)    A new source

b)     A source who somehow changed their own workflow / production..

I CAN say that EPSON USA is WELL aware of the problem and actively 
investigating..

Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Coating and peel off?  Good Lord, I thought Flaking was bad!

Jerry






"scrber " wrote:

> 
> Thanks Paul, amazing that occaisonally the right thing comes along
> just when you need it ;-)
> 
> I am in total agreement with Julian - over here the Ilford smooth is
> extremely cheap and although coating and peel off have been royal
> pains, I do love the look.
> 
> Can't wait to try the new stuff, I will start pestering MIS.
> Steve.
> 
> >
> > I hope this new vm responds to a number of suggestions that people
> have had.
> >
> > Paul
> > http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> 
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I remember what usually happened with Ilford RC papers when I worked at
the University. Bronzing, and genral print failure within a year or two. 

Jerry



"sceptre12345 " wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> > Ilford Smooth Pearl is about the nicest RC paper I've yet used.
> 
> Would you venture a guess as to its lightfastness with the UC inkset
> (either Epson's or the upcoming MIS inkset )
> 
> Andre
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
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I've seen prints with UC inks with and it seemed fine, but I've not used it
myself - no idea about the US though, one of those rare occasions when the
Europeans have an advantage!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bobbo" <bobbo924@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:01 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Paul: Black ink Question


> All this talk about Ilford Pearl paper has me curious. Who sells it in the
> US? I'd love to try a sample. Anyone know if it's happy with the 2200
> Ultrachrome (w/photo black) inkset?
>
> Thanks,
> Bobbo
>
> New Photopaintings at http://www.bobbogoldberg.com
>
> Voice Over website: http://www.bob-vo.com
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I'm not Paul, but I started using this paper after discussions with the guy
who runs Lincoln inks. He makes some great colour dyes. He was very
concerned with longevity and recommended the Ilford paper. Make sure you get
the right version - 'classic' - as the others are instant dry papers with
less archivability. Looking at the data on his site the basic archivability
of the paper is better that Epson with his dyes - so I've no UC specific
data but the indications are that it will be in the same ballpark as the
Epson i.e. 40 years, which is enough for me.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: <am1000@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 8:00 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Paul: Black ink Question


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> > Ilford Smooth Pearl is about the nicest RC paper I've yet used.
>
> Would you venture a guess as to its lightfastness with the UC inkset
> (either Epson's or the upcoming MIS inkset )
>
> Andre
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Paul: Black ink Question


> I'm not Paul, but I started using this paper after discussions with the
guy
> who runs Lincoln inks. He makes some great colour dyes. He was very
> concerned with longevity and recommended the Ilford paper. Make sure you
get
> the right version - 'classic' - as the others are instant dry papers with
> less archivability. Looking at the data on his site the basic
archivability
> of the paper is better that Epson with his dyes - so I've no UC specific
> data but the indications are that it will be in the same ballpark as the
> Epson i.e. 40 years, which is enough for me.
>
> Julian

For dyes it is important to use a paper with a gelatine or PVA coating so
the dye is more or less enclosed.
John Nollendorfs uses the Ilford Archiva dyes inks for his Lincoln inks so
the Ilford classic paper (gelatine coated) is very compatible with the dye
ink. For pigment inks this gelatine coating isn't necessary for fade
resistance but may not harm.

Ernst

Thanks for the insight.  It occured to me that they may have done a slight 
change to better accomodate their new ink sets.  I hope you are right!

Tom Wells

In a message dated 2/4/03 5:42:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
editor@... writes:

<< My advice is to hold off on using EEM for now..
 
 There are shortages of it being reported which would seem to indicate 
 Japan has put a hold on shipping new stock. One way to interpret that 
 would be that they are finally acknowledging they have a problem and 
 trying to fix it.. >>