Digital BW, The Print

----- Original Message -----

From: <dan_honemann@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 9:36 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Epson RIP vs ImagePrint 5


> From the latest reports, it would seem the Epson RIP may cure the
> metamerism problem of the standard driver and produce neutral grays,
> but without IP's ability to tone (though this can be done in PS--if,
> that is, the Epson RIP can be made to work without converting to
> grayscale).  I don't know if the Epson RIP affords any advantage when
> printing in color, as IP is purported to do.

After following Sandy Cornelius' workflow, I now believe that the Epson RIP
may also eliminate metamerism with the proper settings (It looks to me like
it prints using Black and Light Black inks only for grayscale images)
although the prints did not look neutral at all to me.  Rather, they were
very warm.

I suspect trying to tone the image in Photoshop before printing it would
require printing in color mode which would most likely reintroduce the
metamerism.  I just tried to print a slightly cool toned image using Sandy's
Epson RIP settings and it went horribly wrong.  It gave me a very obnoxious
green-blue print in which the shadows are blocked up from 80%-100% in the
step wedge.

> Both RIPs sound somewhat problematic to install and use.  At less
> than half the price of IP5, the Epson RIP addresses half of Jerry's
> complaint, even if it's just as (or more) difficult to get up and
> running properly.  But I'd like to know if the Epson RIP can produce
> image quality on par with that described above using IP.
>

I've tried both and in my opinion, the Epson RIP is actually more difficult
to use and control than ImagePrint!

If in fact the Epson RIP is printing with only Light Black and Black ink the
print will look like the Sepia Piezotones, not at all like the Selenium
Piezotones as stated in one of the previous posts. The print will also be
much warmer than the warmest print possible using the tint picker in
Imageprint.  Imageprint get's its smoother dither by adding photo magenta
and photo cyan to the light black in the hilights...it avoids metamerism by
not using yellow.  As a result a Warm (100,100) print in the tint picker is
much cooler than pure light black and black.  I know because I'm running the
2200 with single channel control with an experimental driver and can fire
channels independently...so I know exactly what a print made with only light
black looks like.  If the Epson RIP is getting a dither as good or better
than Imageprint's with only light black and black then they are definitely
using a new dither not previously available...because running the standard
Epson dither with just light black results in very course hilights.

Robert

On 2/24/03 8:16 PM, "Thomas Fors" <tom@...> wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <dan_honemann@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 9:36 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Epson RIP vs ImagePrint 5
> 
> 
>> From the latest reports, it would seem the Epson RIP may cure the
>> metamerism problem of the standard driver and produce neutral grays,
>> but without IP's ability to tone (though this can be done in PS--if,
>> that is, the Epson RIP can be made to work without converting to
>> grayscale).  I don't know if the Epson RIP affords any advantage when
>> printing in color, as IP is purported to do.
> 
> After following Sandy Cornelius' workflow, I now believe that the Epson RIP
> may also eliminate metamerism with the proper settings (It looks to me like
> it prints using Black and Light Black inks only for grayscale images)
> although the prints did not look neutral at all to me.  Rather, they were
> very warm.
> 
> I suspect trying to tone the image in Photoshop before printing it would
> require printing in color mode which would most likely reintroduce the
> metamerism.  I just tried to print a slightly cool toned image using Sandy's
> Epson RIP settings and it went horribly wrong.  It gave me a very obnoxious
> green-blue print in which the shadows are blocked up from 80%-100% in the
> step wedge.
> 
>> Both RIPs sound somewhat problematic to install and use.  At less
>> than half the price of IP5, the Epson RIP addresses half of Jerry's
>> complaint, even if it's just as (or more) difficult to get up and
>> running properly.  But I'd like to know if the Epson RIP can produce
>> image quality on par with that described above using IP.
>> 
> 
> I've tried both and in my opinion, the Epson RIP is actually more difficult
> to use and control than ImagePrint!
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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> 
>

A while back I tricked ImagePrint into only using Black and Light Black inks
and remembered the result was very warm.  I just dug that print out and
compared it to the Epson RIP prints I just made.

While the Epson RIP print is warm, slightly sepia looking, it's not quite as
sepia as the Matte Black + Light Black only print. There may be some other
inks being mixed in there.  Tomorrow, I'll look at it under the microscope
at work and see what's going on.

--Tom


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson RIP vs ImagePrint 5


> If in fact the Epson RIP is printing with only Light Black and Black ink
the
> print will look like the Sepia Piezotones, not at all like the Selenium
> Piezotones as stated in one of the previous posts. The print will also be
> much warmer than the warmest print possible using the tint picker in
> Imageprint.  Imageprint get's its smoother dither by adding photo magenta
> and photo cyan to the light black in the hilights...it avoids metamerism
by
> not using yellow.  As a result a Warm (100,100) print in the tint picker
is
> much cooler than pure light black and black.  I know because I'm running
the
> 2200 with single channel control with an experimental driver and can fire
> channels independently...so I know exactly what a print made with only
light

> black looks like.  If the Epson RIP is getting a dither as good or better
> than Imageprint's with only light black and black then they are definitely
> using a new dither not previously available...because running the standard
> Epson dither with just light black results in very course hilights.
>
> Robert
>
>

>If in fact the Epson RIP is printing with only Light Black and 
>Black ink the print will look like the Sepia Piezotones, not at all 
>like the Selenium Piezotones as stated in one of the previous posts.

Looking at a print made with the RIP thru a loupe reveals some photo 
(dark) cyan being used. This is corroborated by ink level movement --
 black the most, light black to a lesser extent and then photo cyan 
much less, but being used nontheless. If other colors are being used 
I can't pick it out. I accidently laid down a print made with the RIP 
next to an identical print made with Piezotone Selenium. When I came 
back into the room it took a little while to determine which print 
was which.

Then there must also be magenta involvement...and not just a little ink...it
takes a lot of magenta and cyan to get to the selenium tone shade. The
selenium tones have an eggplant undertone that would definitely require
magenta as well as cyan...in fact more magenta...but you may not be able to
see the dots in the shadows.  Other users seem to be describing the epson
RIP prints as quite warm, however...so I'm not sure what's going on here.
What I am absolutely sure of however, is that the light black and black inks
by themselves are well on their way sepia.  I have a light black and black
ink only 2200 print sitting next to a Selenium piezotone print as well...and
they are nothing alike.

Robert


On 2/24/03 10:24 PM, "sanfo2003 <SandyCornelius@...>"
<SandyCornelius@...> wrote:

>> If in fact the Epson RIP is printing with only Light Black and
>> Black ink the print will look like the Sepia Piezotones, not at all
>> like the Selenium Piezotones as stated in one of the previous posts.
> 
> Looking at a print made with the RIP thru a loupe reveals some photo
> (dark) cyan being used. This is corroborated by ink level movement --
> black the most, light black to a lesser extent and then photo cyan
> much less, but being used nontheless. If other colors are being used
> I can't pick it out. I accidently laid down a print made with the RIP
> next to an identical print made with Piezotone Selenium. When I came
> back into the room it took a little while to determine which print
> was which. 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

Let mw wiegh in here.  I finally opened and installed the Epson RIP.  
I also have IP5.  Using a Mac G4 and Epson 2200.  Here are my 
preliminary impressions.

(1) Both are unnecessarily hard to use and not intuitive.  IP 5's a 
little more intuitive to print with (once you have it set up 
correctly) -- all you do is open the image, select the correct 
ink/paper profile and hit print (oh, and remember to check the little 
box that says "sheet" for the paper feed, otherwise it won't print).  
With the Epson RIP, you have at least 3 or 4 different places in 
different programs or parts of programs where you have to input 
settings.

(2) I would NOT call the prints from the RIP neutral.  As others have 
mentioned, they appear "warm-neutral."  Holding an Epson RIP print 
next to an IP 5 print of the same image, the Epson RIP print clearly 
is warm.  Not quite sepia, but definitely tending toward brown.  In 
fact, it looks almost the same what I recall when printing with the 
standard Epson driver and choosing black ink only (the prints with 
the RIP are slightly less brown than black ink only, but not much.  
I'll have to run a black ink only print tonight of the same image to 
compare directly).  Now, the fact that prints with the Epson RIP are 
not neutral gray is not necessarily a bad thing -- probably a matter 
of preference and I haven't decided yet.  I'm going to look at the 
prints again tonight.  I have to say at this point hat in terms of 
neutrality, I prefer the IP 5 prints.  Perhaps my idea of 
what "neutral" is supposed to look like is different from others', 
however.  The Epson RIP prints do seem to be MUCH more free of 
metamerism than using the standard Epson driver, and probably equal 
to the IP 5 prints in this regard. (Again, though, if I want slightly 
warm greyscale prints with little to no metamerism, however, I could 
use the standard Epson driver and "black ink only.")

For me, the question will come down to whether I prefer the IP 5 
prints so much over the Epson RIP prints in terms of neutrality 
("neutral" warm/brown v. "neutral" cold/gray) that I'm willing to pay 
$300 more for IP 5.  (lack of metamerism is a wash between the two 
for me, but I admit that I don't have the best eye for subtle tonal 
shifts in different lighting conditions -- e.g., my "black" socks 
today are actually blue because I picked them out in poor lighting).

BTW, for the Epson RIP, I'm using the workflow posted and amended by 
Sandy (I think).

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc 
<chipcarterdc@h...>" <chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
[...]
> (2) I would NOT call the prints from the RIP neutral.  As others
> have mentioned, they appear "warm-neutral."
[...]
> In fact, it looks almost the same what I recall when printing with
> the  standard Epson driver and choosing black ink only [...]

Have you (or anyone) tried replacing the light black cartridge with 
another black (matte or photo) in either case (RIP or BO)? 

This might just alleviate the brown/sepia cast.

Dan

> 
> Have you (or anyone) tried replacing the light black cartridge with 
> another black (matte or photo) in either case (RIP or BO)? 
> 
> This might just alleviate the brown/sepia cast.
> 
> Dan

Nope.  My understanding is that it's the black ink, not the light 
black, that has a color cast.  This would make sense because when you 
print with "black ink only" mode, it only uses the single black ink 
(matte or photo), not the light black.  And you get a brownish cast 
using black only, so the color cast has to be in that single black 
ink (matte or photo), not the light black.

on 2/25/03 8:44 AM, chipcarterdc <chipcarterdc@...> at
chipcarterdc@... wrote:
> 
> Let mw wiegh in here.  I finally opened and installed the Epson RIP.
> I also have IP5.  Using a Mac G4 and Epson 2200.



Chip, great comparison.

Are you using OSX for IP5?

Would you be willing to mail me a side by side test print from each? I'd be
happy to pay expenses or.... I believe someone suggested a print exchange
which I would be very up for.

Sue

Sue Tallon Photography
suetallon@...






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 
> Chip, great comparison.
> 
> Are you using OSX for IP5?
> 
> Would you be willing to mail me a side by side test print from 
each? I'd be
> happy to pay expenses or.... I believe someone suggested a print 
exchange
> which I would be very up for.
> 
> Sue
> 
> Sue Tallon Photography
> suetallon@b...
> 


Yep, I'm using oS X for IP5, and OS 9 for the Epson 2200 RIP (because 
it only runs on OS 9)

And yeah, I'd be interested if someone wants to organize a print 
exchange.  I'd like to see others' results with the Epson RIP, to 
make sure the warmish cast I'm seeing with that isn't just my poor 
color vision and/or because I've got something set wrong.

> Nope.  My understanding is that it's the black ink, not the light 
> black, that has a color cast.

Ah, okay, makes sense.

I was basing my suggestion on the following tip:

"Using dual Matte Black cartridges (replacing the Light Black ink as 
well), can produce even better results on uncoated papers."

... taken from an inkjetart.com newsletter, found here:

http://www.inkjetart.com/news/archive/IJN_02-19-03.html

But of course this says nothing about solving the brown tone.  Still, 
it might be interesting to give it a try for matte prints.

Dan

> I have a light black and black ink only 2200 print sitting next to 
> a Selenium piezotone print as well...and they are nothing alike.


Robert,
A print made with "black only" using the Epson driver yields a print 
with a tone that is what I will call "tan". You're right, very very 
warm and nothing like Piezotone Selenium. But print the same image 
with the RIP and it looks like Piezotone Selenium. I would be happy 
to send you (no charge, of course) a couple prints from the same 
image, one from the RIP and one from Pieziography using Selenium 
Piezotones and you can check it out yourself. Some folks seem to be 
skeptical of this RIP comparison to Pieziography/Selenium and I need 
a credible witness. As far as what's going on to accomplish this, 
well, I'm afraid I would be getting in over my head to make a 
conjecture -- I'll leave that up to people who understand these 
things better than I.

-Sandy

Sandy and Robert,

If you would like, I can forward to Robert what you (Sandy) already 
sent to me. That might save you some hassle in printing these all 
over again.

I can vouch for the similarity. The piezotone selenium is slightly 
cooler, closer to neutral, and printed details in a patch of grass 
better (not sure why; there's no loss of detail anywhere else in this 
particular Epson RIP print), but I still like the Epson RIP print 
better overall. With the naked eye, the Epson RIP print seems much 
smoother to me in the monotone sky. The piezotone print looks a 
little more coarse in that area. No doubt if you looked through an 8x 
loupe, the tables would be turned on smoothness, but I'm more 
concerned about the naked eye.

I have the Epson RIP myself now and am getting similarly great 
results using Sandy's workflow. (See my previous post on this for 
details.) Yes it is warm -- warmer than selenium piezotone, but not 
quite as warm as Black Only. It is warm in a way that I find quite 
attractive. Personally I would not trade this for piezotone.

Steven Gray
photopilgrim.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sanfo2003 
<SandyCornelius@c...>" <SandyCornelius@c...> wrote:
> > I have a light black and black ink only 2200 print sitting next 
to 
> > a Selenium piezotone print as well...and they are nothing alike.
> 
> 
> Robert,
> A print made with "black only" using the Epson driver yields a 
print 
> with a tone that is what I will call "tan". You're right, very very 
> warm and nothing like Piezotone Selenium. But print the same image 
> with the RIP and it looks like Piezotone Selenium. I would be happy 
> to send you (no charge, of course) a couple prints from the same 
> image, one from the RIP and one from Pieziography using Selenium 
> Piezotones and you can check it out yourself. Some folks seem to be 
> skeptical of this RIP comparison to Pieziography/Selenium and I 
need 

> a credible witness. As far as what's going on to accomplish this, 
> well, I'm afraid I would be getting in over my head to make a 
> conjecture -- I'll leave that up to people who understand these 
> things better than I.
> 
> -Sandy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc <chipcarterdc@h...>" <chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:

> Yep, I'm using oS X for IP5, and OS 9 for the Epson 2200 RIP (because 
> it only runs on OS 9)

Will the Epson 2200 RIP run in Classic mode?

> 
> Will the Epson 2200 RIP run in Classic mode?

I'm not sure; the box says Mac OS 8.6/9.x (and Windows).  Is Classic 
mode something different?