Digital BW, The Print

rolfe


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unsubscribe.  I seem to be having trouble via YahooGroups moving from this 
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----- Original Message -----
From: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:41 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Digest Number 786


>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are 19 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Re: WTB: Piezography Software
>            From: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...>
>       2. Re: Re: pshop 6->7 VM (converts file differently?)
>            From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
>       3. Re: WTB: Piezography Software
>            From: "jrandall1149" <jrandall@...>
>       4. Re: WTB: Piezography Software
>            From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
>       5. SC3000 cartridge fill/refill
>            From: "bearlick_2000" <rmullins@...>
>       6. Re: pshop 6->7 VM (converts file differently?)
>            From: "jimhayes361" <jimhayes@...>
>       7. Re: WTB: Piezography Software & Inks
>            From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
>       8. PiezoTone color
>            From: Todd Flashner <tflash@...>
>       9. Re: Re: pshop 6->7 VM (converts file differently?)
>            From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
>      10. Re: WTB: Piezography Software
>            From: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...>
>      11. Re: WTB: Piezography Software & Inks
>            From: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...>
>      12. Re: PiezoTone color
>            From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
>      13. Re: Print side Re: Royal Renaissance tips?
>            From: shashinka@...
>      14. Re: WTB: Piezography Software
>            From: Robert Morrison <rmorrison@...>
>      15. Re: WTB: Piezography Software & Inks
>            From: Robert Morrison <rmorrison@...>
>      16. Re: Print side Re: Royal Renaissance tips?
>            From: Robert Morrison <rmorrison@...>
>      17. Re: Re: pshop 6->7 VM (converts file differently?)
>            From: Todd Flashner <tflash@...>
>      18. You want deep black? (Jerry - was  Piezography Software & Inks)
>            From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
>      19. Re: PiezoTone color
>            From: Todd Flashner <tflash@...>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:01:04 -0500
>    From: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...>
> Subject: Re: WTB: Piezography Software
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> I've been through everything Piezo, and I much prefer the VM inks. For a
> beginner, it would be much less money to go with the MIS VM inks. I bet
> I've thrown away $600 in paper and inks setting up the Piezo system. But
> I was among the first to use it and the software was very buggy, and my
> 3000 printer was nothing but hassles. Today, I wouldn't expect it to
> cost much in testing, as the printers are much better, but the cone inks
> did display a LOT of problems with clogging and inks turning green etc.
>
> I am very anxious to see someone using these new piezotone inks in an
> upcoming print exchange. Then I'll know for myself if they deliver
> better results than the VM MIS inkset. I still MUCH prefer the VM MIS
> inkset to the original Piezo inks.
>
> Jerry
>
> Robert Morrison wrote:
> >
> > I've been at quad printing for about a year and a half (digital printing
> > since dot matrix printers in the 80's) and have tried nearly every major
> > system to date.  I think there is no better money spent than an initial
> > piezo software purchase.  You will get great prints across many
different
> > image files...with very little tweaking and will be able to experiment
with
> > papers...which in my opinion is one of the most interesting alternatives
> > that inkjet printing provides over the darkroom.  RGB work flows are
really
> > tricky from image to image and are very difficult when you switch from
paper
> > to paper in my opinion.  The MIS VM ink set provides some interesting
> > possibilities, but I would strongly encourage a beginner to get the
piezo
> > software with a set of Cone's new piezotones...I've used all the major
ink
> > sets out there and I think the piezotones blow the others away.  They
are a
> > little more expensive...but certainly not 80%...and besides, ink is a
small
> > part of the final cost of a print, particularly with good paper.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> > On 6/24/02 7:12 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
> >
> > > You'd get just as good results using the VM inkset and Paul Roark's
> > > curves, and your ink cost would be cut by about 80 percent. Also you
> > > don't need any software.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:03:30 -0700
>    From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: pshop 6->7 VM (converts file differently?)
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jimhayes361" <jimhayes@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:58 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: pshop 6->7 VM (converts file differently?)
>
>
>
> (snip earlier)
>
> > The steps I did after making sure that color settings ("pshop 5
> > defaults" settings), etc were identical:
> > 1) Open file up, disgarding mismatched profile. Image is labelled
> > "untagged grey". I could assign profile of gamma 2.2 to it, but it
> > just gives me the same  histogram results.
> >
> > 2) convert to rgb mode. Dialog asks if I wantt to merge layers. I
> > choose "yes". sRGB appears as the new color space for file.
> >
> > 3) Add adjust curves layer- in curves dialog I load Paul's mw 2880
> > curve for PC. I also checked the normal 1440 (mw for PC 1280) curve
> > that most people use  and also get a change from 6 to 7.
> >
> > 4) select background layer and view histogram. Note down mean, SD and
> > median.
> >
> > 5) close down pshop and open up the other version and repeat steps.
> > There is a slight discrepancy in all three values, but most notable in
> > the median.
> > Jim H.
> >
> Jim,
>
> I went through the steps above (except that I am working in Adobe RGB) and
I
> am not seeing any significant difference between 6 and 7
>
> For the PS7 version of my file I got Mean = 124.58, Std. Dev. = 95.52,
> Median = 143
> For the PS6 version of my file I got Mean = 124.41, Std. Dev. = 95.48,
> Median = 143
>
> So there is some difference but much smaller than you are getting. I am
> running Windows 2000. I wonder if it is image dependent.
>
> The only thing I can suggest was a recommendation from Dan Culbertson way
> back on converting from grayscale to RGB. The workflow would go: flatten
> image, mode change to Channels, delete any remaining alpha channels,
> duplicate the black channel twice so that there are three black channels,
> convert to RGB. The theory is that this will reduce the chance of any
gamma
> mismatch between the grayscale space and RGB space. Something to try.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:07:43 -0000
>    From: "jrandall1149" <jrandall@...>
> Subject: Re: WTB: Piezography Software
>
>
> All of the MIS B/W inksets (MIS-FS, MIS-VM, & MIS-N) are excellent
> choices as alternatives to the PiezoBW inkset.  The only real
> difference is in the warmth and personal preference.
>
> Jeff Randall
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > Hi Robert,
> >
> > I've been through everything Piezo, and I much prefer the VM inks.
> For a
> > beginner, it would be much less money to go with the MIS VM inks. I
> bet
> > I've thrown away $600 in paper and inks setting up the Piezo
> system. But
> > I was among the first to use it and the software was very buggy,
> and my
> > 3000 printer was nothing but hassles. Today, I wouldn't expect it to
> > cost much in testing, as the printers are much better, but the cone
> inks
> > did display a LOT of problems with clogging and inks turning green
> etc.
> >
> > I am very anxious to see someone using these new piezotone inks in
> an
> > upcoming print exchange. Then I'll know for myself if they deliver
> > better results than the VM MIS inkset. I still MUCH prefer the VM
> MIS
> > inkset to the original Piezo inks.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > Robert Morrison wrote:
> > >
> > > I've been at quad printing for about a year and a half (digital
> printing
> > > since dot matrix printers in the 80's) and have tried nearly
> every major
> > > system to date.  I think there is no better money spent than an
> initial
> > > piezo software purchase.  You will get great prints across many
> different
> > > image files...with very little tweaking and will be able to
> experiment with
> > > papers...which in my opinion is one of the most interesting
> alternatives
> > > that inkjet printing provides over the darkroom.  RGB work flows
> are really
> > > tricky from image to image and are very difficult when you switch
> from paper
> > > to paper in my opinion.  The MIS VM ink set provides some
> interesting
> > > possibilities, but I would strongly encourage a beginner to get
> the piezo
> > > software with a set of Cone's new piezotones...I've used all the
> major ink
> > > sets out there and I think the piezotones blow the others away.
> They are a
> > > little more expensive...but certainly not 80%...and besides, ink
> is a small
> > > part of the final cost of a print, particularly with good paper.
> > >
> > > Robert
> > >
> > > On 6/24/02 7:12 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > You'd get just as good results using the VM inkset and Paul
> Roark's
> > > > curves, and your ink cost would be cut by about 80 percent.
> Also you
> > > > don't need any software.
> > > >
> > > > Jerry
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page
> is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:55:23 -0700
>    From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> Subject: Re: WTB: Piezography Software
>
> True, but the piezotones just stepped up the standard.  We'll see if MIS
is
> ready to match them...but my guess is that they are not...at least not
with
> an archival pigment based alternative.  The new inks aren't green, don't
> clog (any more than FS does) and don't warm like FS.  Jerry--you won't be
> able to judge the piezotones from a print exchange you will need to see
side
> by side identical prints to make an adequate comparison.  Doing this the
> Piezotone images leap off the page in comparison because of the extra
black
> punch.  The gray ramp is also much better with the piezotones using the
> piezo software.
>
> The VM is a nice alternative for people with just one printer.  Personally
> it isn't a problem for me to have several printers set up for different
ink
> sets...but this is probably not the case for a beginner.  The selenium and
> color neutral piezotones will be shipping soon.
>
> I have had little success adapting the standard epson driver workflows for
> anything other than EAM and photorag.  I don't particularly like these
> papers...so that's a real problem.  The piezo driver has been great in
this
> respect.  Imageprint will be even better (details soon)...but more
expensive
> for a beginner.  I haven't done a lot of testing with VM, but I find the
RGB
> workflows to be very image dependent...working on some and requiring
> proofing and adjustment on others...once again not ideal for someone just
> starting out.  Once again I think imageprint will make the VM inkset a
much
> more practical alternative...with a grey balancer like the new epson
> printers...but the problem is once again dmax...I'm not willing to give up
> 0.1 to 0.15 dmax in exchange for a little flexibility.
>
> Just my 2-cents,
>
> Robert
>
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@...
>
> 310-397-2704
>
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>
>
> On 6/25/02 2:07 PM, "jrandall1149" <jrandall@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > All of the MIS B/W inksets (MIS-FS, MIS-VM, & MIS-N) are excellent
> > choices as alternatives to the PiezoBW inkset.  The only real
> > difference is in the warmth and personal preference.
> >
> > Jeff Randall
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> > <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> >> Hi Robert,
> >>
> >> I've been through everything Piezo, and I much prefer the VM inks.
> > For a
> >> beginner, it would be much less money to go with the MIS VM inks. I
> > bet
> >> I've thrown away $600 in paper and inks setting up the Piezo
> > system. But
> >> I was among the first to use it and the software was very buggy,
> > and my
> >> 3000 printer was nothing but hassles. Today, I wouldn't expect it to
> >> cost much in testing, as the printers are much better, but the cone
> > inks
> >> did display a LOT of problems with clogging and inks turning green
> > etc.
> >>
> >> I am very anxious to see someone using these new piezotone inks in
> > an
> >> upcoming print exchange. Then I'll know for myself if they deliver
> >> better results than the VM MIS inkset. I still MUCH prefer the VM
> > MIS
> >> inkset to the original Piezo inks.
> >>
> >> Jerry
> >>
> >> Robert Morrison wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I've been at quad printing for about a year and a half (digital
> > printing
> >>> since dot matrix printers in the 80's) and have tried nearly
> > every major
> >>> system to date.  I think there is no better money spent than an
> > initial
> >>> piezo software purchase.  You will get great prints across many
> > different
> >>> image files...with very little tweaking and will be able to
> > experiment with
> >>> papers...which in my opinion is one of the most interesting
> > alternatives
> >>> that inkjet printing provides over the darkroom.  RGB work flows
> > are really
> >>> tricky from image to image and are very difficult when you switch
> > from paper
> >>> to paper in my opinion.  The MIS VM ink set provides some
> > interesting
> >>> possibilities, but I would strongly encourage a beginner to get
> > the piezo
> >>> software with a set of Cone's new piezotones...I've used all the
> > major ink
> >>> sets out there and I think the piezotones blow the others away.
> > They are a
> >>> little more expensive...but certainly not 80%...and besides, ink
> > is a small
> >>> part of the final cost of a print, particularly with good paper.
> >>>
> >>> Robert
> >>>
> >>> On 6/24/02 7:12 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> You'd get just as good results using the VM inkset and Paul
> > Roark's
> >>>> curves, and your ink cost would be cut by about 80 percent.
> > Also you
> >>>> don't need any software.
> >>>>
> >>>> Jerry
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> > Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page
> > is at:
> >>>
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>>
> >>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >>> - Include your full name with your message.
> >>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> > messages to keep them short.
> >>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> > header.
> >>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> >>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> > various resources on the homepage.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:37:40 -0000
>    From: "bearlick_2000" <rmullins@...>
> Subject: SC3000 cartridge fill/refill
>
> Martin,
>
> Thanks for heading me in the right direction. The
> info at the MIS site is just what I was looking for. I
> don't know how I managed to miss it when
> browsing around their site. MIS certainly is a
> wealth of useful information for inkjet users.
>
> Again, I appreciate the help.
>
> Ross
>
> Martin wrote:
> There is a good description for filling the 3000
> carts on the MIS website
> at:
>
> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/
> 3000.html
>
> >
> > Finally, is it necessary to run the Epson color inks
> > in this printer before starting to use the FS-N ink.
>
> While it is not necessary to run the Epson inks, it
> is generally recommended
> to set up a new or refurb printer with the original
> cartridges first simply
> to confirm that everything is in working order.
> That way if there is
> something wrong you will have less trouble or
> issues returning it.
> >
> > I have been reading this list for sometime now and
> > really appreciate the enlightened level of
> > discussion and the depth of knowledge of the
> > many active participants.
>
> Welcome aboard and don't hesitate to keep on
> asking questions as they come
> to you.
> >
> > I use the Mac platform (9500 and Pismo PB) 1160,
> > Cone Software, Photoshop, Genuine Fractals,
> > SS4000 scanner and almost exclusively 35mm
> > format. I am #576 on a backorder list to receive a
> > Canon D60 when they are finally available.
>
> When you get your D60 let us know how you like
> it as a front end to a B&W
> print workflow.
> >
> > These are truly exciting times for B&W
> > photographers.
>
> Indeed!
>
> Martin Wesley
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:39:56 -0000
>    From: "jimhayes361" <jimhayes@...>
> Subject: Re: pshop 6->7 VM (converts file differently?)
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >
>
> > Jim,
> >
> > I went through the steps above (except that I am working in Adobe
> RGB) and I
> > am not seeing any significant difference between 6 and 7
> >
> > For the PS7 version of my file I got Mean = 124.58, Std. Dev. =
> 95.52,
> > Median = 143
> > For the PS6 version of my file I got Mean = 124.41, Std. Dev. =
> 95.48,
> > Median = 143
> >
> > So there is some difference but much smaller than you are getting. I
> am
> > running Windows 2000. I wonder if it is image dependent.
>
> Martin I think this is the case exactly. I did a few images since I
> switched to PS7 and most were normal range prints- that is a more or
> less full tonal spectrum. It's really hard to see and I didn't think I
> had a problem at all, except the  small areas of shadow values looked
> a little posterized which I figured was just bad file manipulation on
> my part.
>
> But I just went back and reprinted a print which is just about all
> shadows. For example your mean is about 124, about midrange, or, a
> fully balanced tonal image. My mean is 46.83 (ps6) or 45.57 (ps7). I
> also find it interesting that your histogram discrepancy is less than
> mine- is it due to darkness of print or do I have a setting wrong?
>
> Now this dark print I originally printed in Febuary. More than about
> 80% of it's surface is shadow detail, and it is one of my best prints
> as far as smooth shadow values/ transistions go. There is absolutely
> no posterization in the 3/4 tones which take up a lot of the print
> surface.
>
> When I compare it to the print I just reprinted yesterday in PS7- the
> new print is really bad. I have a close up of a hand with skin texture
> but it is very dark skin (varies Zone  III-IV) . in this new print
> instead of a textured hand I get something that is so posterized it
> almost looks like a cartoon.
>
> In addition I have a silklike drape that covers much of the
> background. Smooth in tonal transistion in the Febuary print,  in the
> print yesterday the tone breaks lighter suddenly on a fold of the
> cloth where it looks like it's broken out with measles.
>
> Anyway, my supposition (not even a theory yet) is that if you don't
> get exactly the same numbers in PS7 vs 6, even if they are off less
> than 1%, the file is still different than the one you fed to the
> printer under PS6. Perhaps the higher values around 70%k say are not
> as sensitive to small changes in the file data. But how can anyone say
> how much of a difference in the histogram values will affect what
> Paul's curves do to image?
>
> The only way to solve this is to first, make sure I am not overlooking
> something in my settings/workflow, and then when I get the VM ink back
> in, simply print out my dark "problem" print in both PS 6 and in PS 7
> and see if it does print shadows differently. This is the only final
> way to rule it out or in.
>
> However, I am gratefull for your giving me Culbertsons workflow
> notion, and I think I will go back to the puter and try it out.
>
> Sorry for the length. If you get a chance and have some time, try
> printing out one of your lowest key images and check for posterization
> in 3/4 tones. I don't know if it would show up in a step wedge, I
> suspect if one compared it side by side, 6 vs 7 it might.
> Thanks for the help,
> Jim H.
>
>
> >
> > The only thing I can suggest was a recommendation from Dan
> Culbertson way
> > back on converting from grayscale to RGB. The workflow would go:
> flatten
> > image, mode change to Channels, delete any remaining alpha channels,
> > duplicate the black channel twice so that there are three black
> channels,
> > convert to RGB. The theory is that this will reduce the chance of
> any gamma
> > mismatch between the grayscale space and RGB space. Something to
> try.
> >
> > Martin
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:55:49 -0700
>    From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> Subject: Re: WTB: Piezography Software & Inks
>
> I hope to have some very initial fade test results of the full PiezoTone
> inkset (compared to FS and FS-N on EAM) Sunday morning.  They will not be
> perfect, but should tell us if the midtones show the same unfortunate fade
&
> warming characteristics of the black ink.
>
> (See the scanned image of the BLACK INK ONLY 100 hour fade test comparing
> the new PiezoTone black to FS black.  The image is called,
> "PzoTone-VM-FS-K-100 hr fade test.jpg," and is found in the Files section
of
> this forum, which is at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> and then following the links to > Ink Sets > PiezoTones > PiezoTone vs
> MIS-FS.)
>
> On some specific issues:
>
> On 6/25/02 Robert Morrison wrote:
>
> >... the piezotones just stepped up the standard.
>
> It is too early, in my view, to say the standard was raised.  We'll have
to
> see what the full fade tests show.
>
> The only visual difference between the PT and (standard) FS ink is the
black
> ink density.  The FS is also about 0.01 units of density warmer, but that
is
> not very significant.  (Of course, FS-N is noticeably cooler.)
>
> >... The new inks aren't green, don't clog (any more than FS does)
>
> So, in this respect Piezo may have caught up to MIS.
>
> > and don't warm like FS.
>
> FS inks do warm -- as did all the quads I've ever used, except the FS-N,
> which was the first of the non-warming formulas.
>
> The FS-N grays are also in the MIS VM-sepia inkset, and a new, non-warming

> toner for that inkset is in final testing.  So, the MIS VM-S inkset is now
> mostly non-warming and will be more so very soon.  (The neutral end of the
> VM-S may already be as non-warming as the new PiezoTone inkset, but I have
> not done a comparison fade test.)
>
> >...Piezotone images leap off the page in comparison
> >because of the extra black punch.
>
> Visually, this is really the bottom line.  The problem is the trade-off
> between depth of black and stability --  both resistance-to-fade and
> warm-shift.  Pure black dye would even make the new PT K look weak, but I
> doubt many would want to use a pure dye black due to the stability
problems.
> (With the newest printers, those that are satisfied with dye ink stability
> [or lack thereof] might just try black-ink-only printing with the Epson
> dyes.)
>
> It is relatively easy to add black dye to a pigmented black ink and get it
> darker, but the fading and warming always increases.  For those who are
> willing to make the trade-off of more black and less stability, the
> Generations Enhanced K (25% dye) seems to be a fair compromise.  I wish
> someone with PT inks in carts would put in a Generations Enhanced K cart
and
> see what happens.  My fade tests suggest that the Gen K stability is
better
> than the PT K.
>
> I have tried the Gen K with the VM inksets, and frankly, I'm not willing
to
> make the sacrifices in stability and other characteristics that are
> required.  Many, however, are willing to make that trade.
>
> >...Imageprint will be even better (details soon)...
>
> A RIP-controlled VM-Sepia inkset would be the best current inks allow, for
> my personal preferences.  I do hope Imageprint fully supports the vm
> inksets.  (I'll probably get an Adobe PressReady copy for the 3000 if that
> printer is not supported.)
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
> _____________
>
> On 6/25/02 2:07 PM, "jrandall1149" <jrandall@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > All of the MIS B/W inksets (MIS-FS, MIS-VM, & MIS-N) are excellent
> > choices as alternatives to the PiezoBW inkset.  The only real
> > difference is in the warmth and personal preference.
> >
> > Jeff Randall
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> > <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> >> Hi Robert,
> >>
> >> I've been through everything Piezo, and I much prefer the VM inks.
> > For a
> >> beginner, it would be much less money to go with the MIS VM inks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:44:17 -0400
>    From: Todd Flashner <tflash@...>
> Subject: PiezoTone color
>
> Just curious, how linear is the hue of the inks across the scale? IOW, if
> you print a step wedge do you get the sense that the color is the same
> across the scale, just the density differs, or do you get the sense that
> some of the ink positions have a different hue than others?
>
> Todd
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 9
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 19:31:01 -0700
>    From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: pshop 6->7 VM (converts file differently?)
>
>
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jimhayes361" <jimhayes@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 4:39 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: pshop 6->7 VM (converts file differently?)
>
>
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > Jim,
> > >
> > > I went through the steps above (except that I am working in Adobe
> > RGB) and I
> > > am not seeing any significant difference between 6 and 7
> > >
> > > For the PS7 version of my file I got Mean = 124.58, Std. Dev. =
> > 95.52,
> > > Median = 143
> > > For the PS6 version of my file I got Mean = 124.41, Std. Dev. =
> > 95.48,
> > > Median = 143
> > >
> > > So there is some difference but much smaller than you are getting. I
> > am
> > > running Windows 2000. I wonder if it is image dependent.
> >
> > Martin I think this is the case exactly. I did a few images since I
> > switched to PS7 and most were normal range prints- that is a more or
> > less full tonal spectrum. It's really hard to see and I didn't think I
> > had a problem at all, except the  small areas of shadow values looked
> > a little posterized which I figured was just bad file manipulation on
> > my part.
>
> Jim,
>
> I went back an dug out a grayscale that was shadow predominate and went
> through the same workflow and got similar results:
>
> For the PS7 version of my shadow file I got Mean = 82.30, Std. Dev. =
80.02,
> Median = 44
> For the PS6 version of my file I got Mean = 82.32, Std. Dev. = 80.07,
Median
> = 44
>
> So it seems to be pretty consistent on my system at least.
>
> >
> > But I just went back and reprinted a print which is just about all
> > shadows. For example your mean is about 124, about midrange, or, a
> > fully balanced tonal image. My mean is 46.83 (ps6) or 45.57 (ps7). I
> > also find it interesting that your histogram discrepancy is less than
> > mine- is it due to darkness of print or do I have a setting wrong?
> >
> > Now this dark print I originally printed in Febuary. More than about
> > 80% of it's surface is shadow detail, and it is one of my best prints
> > as far as smooth shadow values/ transistions go. There is absolutely
> > no posterization in the 3/4 tones which take up a lot of the print
> > surface.
> >
> > When I compare it to the print I just reprinted yesterday in PS7- the
> > new print is really bad. I have a close up of a hand with skin texture
> > but it is very dark skin (varies Zone  III-IV) . in this new print
> > instead of a textured hand I get something that is so posterized it
> > almost looks like a cartoon.
>
> This has always been a tricky area and is the weakness of the RGB
separation
> and Epson driver workflow. The application of the curves themselves in
8-bit
> mode can totally trash your data. How do the PS6 and PS7 histograms
compare
> prior to applying a separation curve? Is the problem occurring when the
mode
> change is made or when the curves are applied?
> >
> > In addition I have a silklike drape that covers much of the
> > background. Smooth in tonal transistion in the Febuary print,  in the
> > print yesterday the tone breaks lighter suddenly on a fold of the
> > cloth where it looks like it's broken out with measles.
> >
> > Anyway, my supposition (not even a theory yet) is that if you don't
> > get exactly the same numbers in PS7 vs 6, even if they are off less
> > than 1%, the file is still different than the one you fed to the
> > printer under PS6. Perhaps the higher values around 70%k say are not
> > as sensitive to small changes in the file data. But how can anyone say
> > how much of a difference in the histogram values will affect what
> > Paul's curves do to image?
> >
> > The only way to solve this is to first, make sure I am not overlooking
> > something in my settings/workflow, and then when I get the VM ink back
> > in, simply print out my dark "problem" print in both PS 6 and in PS 7
> > and see if it does print shadows differently. This is the only final
> > way to rule it out or in.
> >
> > However, I am gratefull for your giving me Culbertsons workflow
> > notion, and I think I will go back to the puter and try it out.
> >
> > Sorry for the length. If you get a chance and have some time, try
> > printing out one of your lowest key images and check for posterization
> > in 3/4 tones. I don't know if it would show up in a step wedge, I
> > suspect if one compared it side by side, 6 vs 7 it might.
>
> I would think that anything like this would show up in a step wedge. So
you
> might want to start there.
>
> As I recall you are on a 1280 and I wanted to point out that Adobe
> PressReady works with the 1280 (it thinks it is a 1270) giving you full
CMYK
> control. Peter Lindman sent me some really great prints he did with the
> MIS-VM set and I have seen Tyler's work with Piezo inks and Press Ready on
a
> 3000. Of course you are then off on your own doing curves but you have
more
> control than trying to trick the Epson driver with the RGB curves.
>
> I'm wandering. If you resolve the issue, which my trials would suggest you
> can, please let us know what you find.
>
> Martin
>
> (snip)
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:27:18 -0500
>    From: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...>
> Subject: Re: WTB: Piezography Software
>
> Robert, I've not had any significant problems with VM inks on different
> papers. I find that when I get a perfect print on EAM, I simply do a
> levels adjustment layer for other papers. For instance, if its just
> right on Epson Archival Matte, I lower the gamma by 15 percent for
> Eclipse Satine. It's 10% for Legion Photo Matte. Works like a charm.
>
> You may be right about the black, I've not yet seen a print from
> piezotone inks.
>
> Which VM ink isn't archival? They sell them as permanent pigment
> archival inks. I suppose the black has a little dye in it to make it
> blacker. 20 years with no fading or changes is good enough for me.  None
> of my vm inks have shown any sign of fading, and I've been using them
> since they came out. They don't turn brown in a south window after
> several months, either. (I use the cold and cool curves).
>
> How much ARE the piezotone inks?
>
> The new Epson 2200 printer looks great until you realize how small its'
> cartridges are, and how expensive the epson inks are.  We'll see what
> Atlex sells the individual carts for.  It WOULD be nice to have a single
> printer that could do both color and black and white, I must admit.
>
> I sort of had bad luck with the original piezo, and am not eager to try
> it again.  I still don't want to use the piezo driver, as I have many
> other things to do on my computer while the print is printing, and I
> don't want it to be tied up while printing a Piezo print.
>
> Jerry
>
> "Robert G. Morrison" wrote:
> >
> > True, but the piezotones just stepped up the standard.  We'll see if MIS
is
> > ready to match them...but my guess is that they are not...at least not
with
> > an archival pigment based alternative.  T
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:30:57 -0500
>    From: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...>
> Subject: Re: WTB: Piezography Software & Inks
>
> Paul, how does one measure the density of black on a print?
>
> Jerry
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:23:12 -0700
>    From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Subject: Re: PiezoTone color
>
> Todd,
>
> Unfortunately the hue seems pretty much the same across the tonal range.
Not
> that this is bad, it just isn't to my personal taste. For other people
> consistency of hue is a much sought after quality in B&W prints. I like
the
> variation in hue you can see in some of the MIS-VM prints. Peter Lindman's
> on Eclipse Satine in the A3 exchange being a good example of this. Very
cool
> blue highlights with blue and magenta midtones and warm shadows.
>
> Paper has a lot to do with this of course. The wedges I have in front of
me
> are on Photo Rag where the base color is warm and blends into the
PiezoTone
> ink set. Taking a look at some on EAM there is more variation since the
base
> is cooler with a touch of green (to my eye). On something really cool like
> Legion Photo Matte you would get even more variation.
>
> I have hopes that the upcoming Selenium Piezotones will offer more
variation
> in hue. Down the road with the cool neutral set added in there will be
> opportunities to mix and match.
>
> Martin
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Todd Flashner" <tflash@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 6:44 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] PiezoTone color
>
>
> > Just curious, how linear is the hue of the inks across the scale? IOW,
if
> > you print a step wedge do you get the sense that the color is the same
> > across the scale, just the density differs, or do you get the sense that
> > some of the ink positions have a different hue than others?
> >
> > Todd
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 13
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:39:00 EDT
>    From: shashinka@...
> Subject: Re: Print side Re: Royal Renaissance tips?
>
>
> In a message dated 6/25/02 12:14:07 PM, jimp@... writes:
>
> <<
>     Wow, thanks Martin, I am definitely going to try the tongue trick
> tonight!  If this paper is as good as everyone says I must have printed on
> the wrong side then, oh well, live and learn right...I have a lot of
> learning to do. :)  Well, thanks again, happy printing!
>
> Jim P
>   >>
>
> Hello:
>
> Here's a less tasty option.  The coated side when lightly scratched with a
> name has more of a sandpaper feel.  The non-coated side will be more
slippery.
>
> best of luck!
>
> -Andrew Darlow
>
> Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
> Andrew Darlow Images International, NYC - www.andrewdarlow.com
> Author: Inkjet Tip of the Month Club (newsletter)
> To subscribe, send e-mail to: Inkjettips-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:03:36 -0700
>    From: Robert Morrison <rmorrison@...>
> Subject: Re: WTB: Piezography Software
>
> On 6/25/02 8:27 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
>
> > Which VM ink isn't archival? They sell them as permanent pigment
> > archival inks. I suppose the black has a little dye in it to make it
> > blacker. 20 years with no fading or changes is good enough for me.  None
> > of my vm inks have shown any sign of fading, and I've been using them
> > since they came out. They don't turn brown in a south window after
> > several months, either. (I use the cold and cool curves).
>
> The VM's are archival in my book...but in my opinion they are not a match
> for the Piezotones.  I don't believe that MIS is planning to try to match
> the piezotone performance...my understanding is that they believe they
> already have to many inks on the market...but of course I could be wrong.
>
>
> > How much ARE the piezotone inks?
>
> $44/4oz.  He brought his price down by 30%...of course still significantly
> more than the MIS inks...its hard to compete against a free R&D department
> (wink, wink, Paul).  But as I said in my earlier post...ink is a trival
part
> of the cost of doing this...unless of course its epson ink!
>
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 15
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:05:08 -0700
>    From: Robert Morrison <rmorrison@...>
> Subject: Re: WTB: Piezography Software & Inks
>
> With a densitometer or spectrophotometer.  Properly done you print a step
> wedge using all of the inks and measure a black patch.
>
> Robert
>
> On 6/25/02 8:30 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
>
> > Paul, how does one measure the density of black on a print?
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 16
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:06:51 -0700
>    From: Robert Morrison <rmorrison@...>
> Subject: Re: Print side Re: Royal Renaissance tips?
>
> Funny, I remember years back when we asked Jon Cone this and he painted a
> rather colorful picture of everyone in NH walking about licking paper
> samples...
>
> :-)
>
> Robert
>
> On 6/25/02 8:39 PM, "shashinka@..." <shashinka@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > In a message dated 6/25/02 12:14:07 PM, jimp@... writes:
> >
> > <<
> >   Wow, thanks Martin, I am definitely going to try the tongue trick
> > tonight!  If this paper is as good as everyone says I must have printed
on
> > the wrong side then, oh well, live and learn right...I have a lot of
> > learning to do. :)  Well, thanks again, happy printing!
> >
> > Jim P
> >>>
> >
> > Hello:
> >
> > Here's a less tasty option.  The coated side when lightly scratched with
a
> > name has more of a sandpaper feel.  The non-coated side will be more
slippery.
> >
> > best of luck!
> >
> > -Andrew Darlow
> >
> > Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
> > Andrew Darlow Images International, NYC - www.andrewdarlow.com
> > Author: Inkjet Tip of the Month Club (newsletter)
> > To subscribe, send e-mail to: Inkjettips-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 17
>    Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 01:09:05 -0400
>    From: Todd Flashner <tflash@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: pshop 6->7 VM (converts file differently?)
>
> on 6/25/02 10:31 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:
>
> > This has always been a tricky area and is the weakness of the RGB
separation
> > and Epson driver workflow. The application of the curves themselves in
8-bit
> > mode can totally trash your data. How do the PS6 and PS7 histograms
compare
> > prior to applying a separation curve? Is the problem occurring when the
mode
> > change is made or when the curves are applied?
>
> Hi Martin,
>
> Well, I'd like to see this explored a bit. As I don't have the Piezo
driver
> I can't compare, but you may remember a few weeks ago I posted regarding a
> print I received from a friend which had the same problem (right down to
> dark skin - or at least light skin in shadow) but, A) the print was from a
> file that had no manipulation done in 8-bit mode, i.e., had a "pure"
> histogram, and B) was printed through the Piezo driver. Still,
posterization
> (or something close enough to it to be called that) was present.
>
> Now, please don't misinterpret my interest. I don't know that I'm trying
to
> prove anything per se - if the Piezo driver/workflow were to consistently
> prove itself better I'd just go and buy it, and I may just do that in
time,
> (but that's not what I've seen so far). Anyway, I am interested in
> understanding this. Sooo, when you say it's a weakness of the RGB
workflow,
> do you in fact mean: as opposed to the Piezo workflow; or do you mean it's
> the weakness of any partitioned workflow. Have you (anyone) tried the same
> image side by side through the two different workflows and compared?
>
> What I'd consider a side by side test would be to work the file fully in
> grayscale, then dupe it. Send the original to the Piezo driver to print on
> say EAM with that profile, convert the dupe to RGB and apply a good EAM
> curve to it and print through the Epson driver.
>
> Similarly, I take your point, which was that the posterization may be
caused
> by working a file in 8-bit mode such that it wont appear to be damaged
UNTIL
> you apply the separation curves. This too needs be side by side tested by
> also working the same file in the same way in 16-bit mode and printing
from
> that, and comparing. Consider also that the Epson driver includes
Microweave
> and/or Error Diffusion, which may (throw salt over my shoulder) help with
> broken files.
>
> Anyway, sorry to be so intense, but this topic has bedeviled me. While
> struggling with my own occasional posterization I believed all the
> conventional wisdoms about the sources: bad curves, overworked files,
> misapplied driver settings...all very properly the first things to rule
out.
> But then what? When we've ruled out the first suspects, when a person uses
a
> good scanner, does no 8-bit editing, uses the Piezo driver with the right
> profile, etc, and they still get posterization, what does it tell us?
>
> And it always seems to be in the 3/4 tones, no?
>
> I just wonder what it is in this process. I'd love for someone who has the
> piezo driver to make the comparison sometime. Take a file that posterizes
> through one workflow - any workflow - and then do the same file through
the
> alternative workflow and see if it helps. If it does I'd say stick with
the
> workflow that helps, until you get posterization with it. Then try the
> alternate workflow and see if it helps. My suspicion is that no one
workflow
> will out work the other in all cases. I'd bet it's good to have two
> workflows available precisely in case you hit the wall with one, you'll
have
> somewhere else to go.
>
> Someone mentioned it's probably the way tones in some images fall relative
> to the transition between ink densities. That sounds very plausible to me,
> and it would explain why it is common to Piezo and Epson prints, and 8-bit
> and 16-bit files, and some of our prints get it while others don't. The
> irony is (while it's certainly a blessing in other ways), all the carbon
> pigment inksets seem to be increasingly built around the Piezo densities,
> which means switching inks/workflows becomes less likely to change
anything.
>
> Todd
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 18
>    Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:22:45 -0700
>    From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> Subject: You want deep black? (Jerry - was  Piezography Software & Inks)
>
> Jerry,
>
> I measure density of the black ink on paper in the 100% patch of a 21-step
> test strip, using an X-Rite "Color Digital Swatchbook."  It's a
> spectrophotometer, also known as a densitometer.
>
> OK, so here is my new champ for blacks:  MIS dye black, 1160, Epson Photo
> Paper, Epson driver, 100% K patch visual density = 2.30.  (The Piezo
driver
> results in 2.17.)
>
> I'll be mixing a dye-based "FS" inkset soon.  It might be interesting.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
>   Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:31 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] WTB: Piezography Software & Inks
>
>
>   Paul, how does one measure the density of black on a print?
>
>   Jerry
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 19
>    Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 01:18:54 -0400
>    From: Todd Flashner <tflash@...>
> Subject: Re: PiezoTone color
>
> on 6/25/02 11:23 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:
>
> > Todd,
> >
> > Unfortunately the hue seems pretty much the same across the tonal range.
Not
> > that this is bad, it just isn't to my personal taste. For other people
> > consistency of hue is a much sought after quality in B&W prints. I like
the
> > variation in hue you can see in some of the MIS-VM prints. Peter
Lindman's
> > on Eclipse Satine in the A3 exchange being a good example of this. Very
cool
> > blue highlights with blue and magenta midtones and warm shadows.
>
> Interesting. That's actually one of the things that originally attracted
me
> to the VM sets, the ability to split tone. I spent a lot of time working
out
> how to do it, then decided I didn't like it. I think the problem was I
> wasn't crazy about the original cool hues. I should try it again with the
> Sepia set (or god forbid, mix my own).
>
> > Paper has a lot to do with this of course. The wedges I have in front of
me
> > are on Photo Rag where the base color is warm and blends into the
PiezoTone
> > ink set. Taking a look at some on EAM there is more variation since the
base
> > is cooler with a touch of green (to my eye). On something really cool
like
> > Legion Photo Matte you would get even more variation.
>
> Makes sense, thanks.
>
> > I have hopes that the upcoming Selenium Piezotones will offer more
variation

> > in hue. Down the road with the cool neutral set added in there will be
> > opportunities to mix and match.
>
> Good point, all these new inksets add a lot of possibilities!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Todd
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

I would like to unsubscribe to the email portion of Digital BW. Thank you

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My "unsbubscribe" was aimed at the e-mail service message that hit this
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Sorry - 
Stephen Petegorsky

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Cassandra,

You need to address the unsubscribe message to:

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Martin Wesley
http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

 



* -----Original Message-----
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* Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 9:54 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Lee 
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Richard go into your Yahoo groups and do it yourself no one here save 
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Go to the home page and in the upper right corner is a tab that says 
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