Digital BW, The Print

Antonis and Roy,

 Perhaps this should go to Roy but I thought both of you might 
comment..

I've been using PiezoBW and Roark curves on my 3000 to make
prints. 
I've been unhappy with the PiezoBW software for the simple reason 
that it is so Profile dependant and if you don't have the
ink/paper 
combination profile it does not work very well. I have an 1160 and am 
in the process of purchasing a 7500. The 3000 is good when it works 
but…

 At any rate I'd like your takes on Roy's system, which he so
kindly 
made available, and the Bowhaus system. At this point what are the 
Pros and cons of each. I still have 9.2 loaded on my G3 as well as 
OSX10.2.4. So I will be able to work with either system.  I've
been 
alternately happy and unhappy with my results. I really would like a 
system, which would allow me to be a bit more in control of the 
results. I suppose a side comment might be made about Jon Cone's
new 
system as well. If anyone else would like to chime in I'd
appreciate 
it.

					John H

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"mr_misty_44" <jharvey@i...> wrote:
> Antonis and Roy,
> 
>  Perhaps this should go to Roy but I thought both of you might 
> comment..
> 
> I've been using PiezoBW and Roark curves on my 3000 to 
make
> prints. 
> I've been unhappy with the PiezoBW software for the simple 
reason 
> that it is so Profile dependant and if you don't have the
> ink/paper 
> combination profile it does not work very well. I have an 1160 
and am 
> in the process of purchasing a 7500. The 3000 is good when it 
works 
> but…
> 
>  At any rate I'd like your takes on Roy's system, which he so
> kindly 
> made available, and the Bowhaus system. At this point what 
are the 
> Pros and cons of each. I still have 9.2 loaded on my G3 as well 
as 
> OSX10.2.4. So I will be able to work with either system.  I've
> been 
> alternately happy and unhappy with my results. I really would 
like a 
> system, which would allow me to be a bit more in control of the 
> results. I suppose a side comment might be made about Jon 
Cone's
> new 
> system as well. If anyone else would like to chime in I'd
> appreciate 
> it.
> 
> 					John H

John,

As I see it, Bowhaus and QuadTone RIP have quite a few
similarities but we've started at different ends of the problem.

My stuff started with OS X a given and a grayscale workflow
built into the normal printing system.  I have full control over
4 inks but not 6 inks because the regular gimp-print code
only provides that currently.   I've done a few aids to making
curves using a couple of spreadsheets but it's not a
productized, automated process. 

Bowhaus on the other hand seems to have put a lot of
effort into curve design software -- this is what they are selling.
Their printing workflow is based on a separate program that
prints TIFF files and initially runs on Mac OS 8 and 9 and
I guess under Classic.  Seeing how they are a money making
company, no doubt they will make it run on the other platforms.

So what should you do?  I'd say download both and try them
out.  It doesn't look like there are any Bowhaus curves for
the printers you have but at least you can see what its like.
I would think someone would have an 1160 curve soon.
As it turns out I have an 1160 and recently a 7500 both with
VM-Sepia inks so my 1160 curves are fine and I'll be working
on the 7500 for QuadToneRIP.  I expect the 3000 curves 
wouldn't be too difficult.

Roy

John,

the IJC/OPM combo supports the 1160 and 7500 but not the 3000. Please go 
back to my messages of the last two days to see if that solution works for you.  
The big difference from any other bw printing solution is the ability to make 
your own profiles and update them as needed.  

Be aware that at present there is a 36" limit to the length of the prints it allows 
(and won't run the 7500 in roll mode either). 

If you haven't already, check out their site: 
http://www.bowhaus.com/inkjetcontrol/

I can't quite give you the comparison you are asking about since my only 
reference is the old piezo plug-in and ImagePrint both of which rely on 
company-supplied profiles (as does the current solution that Jon Cone offers).

 To me that era is behind us and the thought of using canned profiles for bw is 
only a necessary compromise if there is nothing else around (such as for an 
old unsupported printer or prints longer than 36"). 

Your mileage may vary, of course!

Antonis




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mr_misty_44" 
<jharvey@i...> wrote:

......

>  At any rate I'd like your takes on Roy's system, which he so
> kindly 
> made available, and the Bowhaus system. At this point what are the 
> Pros and cons of each. I still have 9.2 loaded on my G3 as well as 
> OSX10.2.4. So I will be able to work with either system.  I've
> been 
> alternately happy and unhappy with my results. I really would like a 
> system, which would allow me to be a bit more in control of the 
> results. I suppose a side comment might be made about Jon Cone's
> new 
> system as well. If anyone else would like to chime in I'd
> appreciate 
> it.
> 
> 					John H

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" 
<roy@h...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
> "mr_misty_44" <jharvey@i...> wrote:
> > Antonis and Roy,
> > 
> >  Perhaps this should go to Roy but I thought both of you might 
> > comment..
> > 
> > I've been using PiezoBW and Roark curves on my 3000 to 
> make
> > prints. 
> > I've been unhappy with the PiezoBW software for the simple 
> reason 
> > that it is so Profile dependant and if you don't have the
> > ink/paper 
> > combination profile it does not work very well. I have an 1160 
> and am 
> > in the process of purchasing a 7500. The 3000 is good when it 
> works 
> > but…
> > 
> >  At any rate I'd like your takes on Roy's system, which he so
> > kindly 
> > made available, and the Bowhaus system. At this point what 
> are the 
> > Pros and cons of each. I still have 9.2 loaded on my G3 as well 
> as 
> > OSX10.2.4. So I will be able to work with either system.  I've
> > been 
> > alternately happy and unhappy with my results. I really would 
> like a 
> > system, which would allow me to be a bit more in control of the 
> > results. I suppose a side comment might be made about Jon 
> Cone's
> > new 
> > system as well. If anyone else would like to chime in I'd
> > appreciate 
> > it.
> > 
> > 					John H
> 
> John,
> 
> As I see it, Bowhaus and QuadTone RIP have quite a few
> similarities but we've started at different ends of the problem.
> 
> My stuff started with OS X a given and a grayscale workflow
> built into the normal printing system.  I have full control over
> 4 inks but not 6 inks because the regular gimp-print code
> only provides that currently.   I've done a few aids to making
> curves using a couple of spreadsheets but it's not a
> productized, automated process. 
> 
> Bowhaus on the other hand seems to have put a lot of
> effort into curve design software -- this is what they are selling.
> Their printing workflow is based on a separate program that
> prints TIFF files and initially runs on Mac OS 8 and 9 and
> I guess under Classic.  Seeing how they are a money making
> company, no doubt they will make it run on the other platforms.
> 
> So what should you do?  I'd say download both and try them
> out.  It doesn't look like there are any Bowhaus curves for
> the printers you have but at least you can see what its like.
> I would think someone would have an 1160 curve soon.
> As it turns out I have an 1160 and recently a 7500 both with
> VM-Sepia inks so my 1160 curves are fine and I'll be working
> on the 7500 for QuadToneRIP.  I expect the 3000 curves 
> wouldn't be too difficult.
> 
> Roy

Roy,

    So, as I read it OpenPrintMaker which comes with  
IJC supports 6 ink printers where as Gimp Print does Not. Or is it 
that the part you've added does not, as yet, support 6-ink printers? 
I'm confused a bit over this since Gimp Print lists a great number of 
6 ink printers as supported printers.

Just as a bit of further confusion, could you use Gimp print with the 
IJC software or not. What is the advantage of the OpenPrintMaker over 
Gimp Print when used with IJC.Would there be any advantage in using 
the IJC software with Gimp Print.

                            John H

John,

IJC and OPM support up to 7-ink printers. The IJC profiles are only good on 
OPM. For a list of supported printers and the free OPM see the bowhaus  site.

Antonis

> Just as a bit of further confusion, could you use Gimp print with the 
> IJC software or not. What is the advantage of the OpenPrintMaker over 
> Gimp Print when used with IJC.Would there be any advantage in using 
> the IJC software with Gimp Print.

QuadToneRip and Gimp-print do support 6-ink printers, and do a fine job with them. The problem Roy mentioned is that the _current_ version of Gimp-print does not support _direct_ control of the photo-cyan and photo-magenta inks. Those inks are used, but are controlled by the driver to print different densities of cyan or magenta. 

To the end user (me) this subtlety doesn't really seem to matter, though I suspect that when Roy gets his hands on a newer Gimprint that allows direct control of those inks that his quality will improve beyond the already very good quality he is getting :)

> Roy,
> 
>     So, as I read it OpenPrintMaker which comes with  
> IJC supports 6 ink printers where as Gimp Print does Not. Or is it 
> that the part you've added does not, as yet, support 6-ink printers? 
> I'm confused a bit over this since Gimp Print lists a great number of 
> 6 ink printers as supported printers.
> 
> Just as a bit of further confusion, could you use Gimp print with the 
> IJC software or not. What is the advantage of the OpenPrintMaker over 
> Gimp Print when used with IJC.Would there be any advantage in using 
> the IJC software with Gimp Print.
> 
>                             John H

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"mr_misty_44" <jharvey@i...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy 
Harrington" 
> <roy@h...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
> > "mr_misty_44" <jharvey@i...> wrote:
> > > Antonis and Roy,
> > > 
> > >  Perhaps this should go to Roy but I thought both of you 
might 
> > > comment..
> > > 
> > > I've been using PiezoBW and Roark curves on my 3000 to 
> > make
> > > prints. 
> > > I've been unhappy with the PiezoBW software for the simple 
> > reason 
> > > that it is so Profile dependant and if you don't have the
> > > ink/paper 
> > > combination profile it does not work very well. I have an 
1160 
> > and am 
> > > in the process of purchasing a 7500. The 3000 is good 
when it 
> > works 
> > > but…
> > > 
> > >  At any rate I'd like your takes on Roy's system, which he so
> > > kindly 
> > > made available, and the Bowhaus system. At this point 
what 
> > are the 
> > > Pros and cons of each. I still have 9.2 loaded on my G3 as 
well 
> > as 
> > > OSX10.2.4. So I will be able to work with either system.  I've
> > > been 
> > > alternately happy and unhappy with my results. I really 
would 
> > like a 
> > > system, which would allow me to be a bit more in control of 
the 
> > > results. I suppose a side comment might be made about 
Jon 
> > Cone's
> > > new 
> > > system as well. If anyone else would like to chime in I'd
> > > appreciate 
> > > it.
> > > 
> > > 					John H
> > 
> > John,
> > 
> > As I see it, Bowhaus and QuadTone RIP have quite a few
> > similarities but we've started at different ends of the problem.
> > 
> > My stuff started with OS X a given and a grayscale workflow
> > built into the normal printing system.  I have full control over
> > 4 inks but not 6 inks because the regular gimp-print code
> > only provides that currently.   I've done a few aids to making
> > curves using a couple of spreadsheets but it's not a
> > productized, automated process. 
> > 
> > Bowhaus on the other hand seems to have put a lot of
> > effort into curve design software -- this is what they are 
selling.
> > Their printing workflow is based on a separate program that
> > prints TIFF files and initially runs on Mac OS 8 and 9 and
> > I guess under Classic.  Seeing how they are a money 
making
> > company, no doubt they will make it run on the other 
platforms.
> > 
> > So what should you do?  I'd say download both and try them
> > out.  It doesn't look like there are any Bowhaus curves for
> > the printers you have but at least you can see what its like.
> > I would think someone would have an 1160 curve soon.
> > As it turns out I have an 1160 and recently a 7500 both with
> > VM-Sepia inks so my 1160 curves are fine and I'll be working
> > on the 7500 for QuadToneRIP.  I expect the 3000 curves 
> > wouldn't be too difficult.
> > 
> > Roy
> 
> Roy,
> 
>     So, as I read it OpenPrintMaker which comes with  
> IJC supports 6 ink printers where as Gimp Print does Not. Or 
is it 
> that the part you've added does not, as yet, support 6-ink 
printers? 
> I'm confused a bit over this since Gimp Print lists a great 
number of 
> 6 ink printers as supported printers.
> 
> Just as a bit of further confusion, could you use Gimp print with 
the 
> IJC software or not. What is the advantage of the 
OpenPrintMaker over 
> Gimp Print when used with IJC.Would there be any advantage 
in using 
> the IJC software with Gimp Print.
> 
>                             John H

John,

As Charles said, gimp-print handles 6 and 7 ink printers
just fine INTERNALLY.  What it doesn't allow is separate ink
controls EXTERNALLY i.e. from where QuadToneRIP stands.
There is an effort by the gimp-print people to allow this
control sometime in the future.   The gimp-print source code
is all available under the GNU license so I imagine that
Bowhaus just started with the basic package and added the
external control of 6 and 7 inks.

If you want to use IJC curve software you'll have to use a
program that understands their curve files -- so you must
use their OPM.  The fact that OPM contains some gimp-print
code is invisible and impossible to separate.

Roy