Digital BW, The Print

I have been having huge problems with Lyson small gamut inks shifting 
from sepia to greenish hue in a matter of months. These are prints 
that are both framed and sealed under glass in low-humidity,
primarily 
incandescent light settings, and also prints simply stored in a 
drawer. They are printed on Hahnemule Cotton Rag paper, and sprayed 
with coats of Lyson Print Guard. In other words, you couldn't do 
everything more right if you tried. 

I have called Lyson in the US and the UK and both technical 
departments say that they have never had anyone call about this 
problem before. And yet in limited reearch, I have already
encountered 
a few other people with the same problem. Lyson have all along 
adamantly maintained that their inks have an archival value of 70 
years. To me, this is clearly irresponsible, inaccurate marketing, to 
say the least. 

So my question is...is there anyone out there having the same 
problems............

Have been a listener to the group for months and found much helpful 
information.  I use Lyson small gamut in a 1160 and have had no problems 
in colour shift after a 24hours settling period  The tonal range beats 
my untoned  B & W prints. Some are on display and others scattered about 
the room or in drawers not all have been sprayed with print guard.  Have 
you tried Marrutt's the UK distributor? They give about the best service 
of any firm I have used and always go out of their way to help with any 
problems or questions.

In message <b7ldrd+bpq5@...>, nick90290 <NickBrandt@...> 
writes
>I have been having huge problems with Lyson small gamut inks shifting
>from sepia to greenish hue in a matter of months. These are prints
>that are both framed and sealed under glass in low-humidity,
>primarily
>incandescent light settings, and also prints simply stored in a
>drawer. They are printed on Hahnemule Cotton Rag paper, and sprayed
>with coats of Lyson Print Guard. In other words, you couldn't do
>everything more right if you tried.
>
>I have called Lyson in the US and the UK and both technical
>departments say that they have never had anyone call about this
>problem before. And yet in limited reearch, I have already
>encountered
>a few other people with the same problem. Lyson have all along
>adamantly maintained that their inks have an archival value of 70
>years. To me, this is clearly irresponsible, inaccurate marketing, to
>say the least.
>
>So my question is...is there anyone out there having the same
>problems............
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-- 
Cyril H. Walker

Nick-

I've been using Lyson small gamut for about 2 years and have never 
had that problem...though I don't think I've ever printed on HPR...I 
generally use LSG for glossy and semi glossy prints that are 
impossible to print with pig inks.

I've never used the can of print guard that I ordered with my first 
set of LSG carts...just can't deal with the spray <<g>.

Do you have the same problem with other papers? 

I often see slightly different results over a 1-3 day dry period when 
I use different papers...some not so nice at all, but generally the 
worst I see is a little shift to the selenium shades that many people 
like a lot (I'm not really a fan of it, and try really hard to keep 
the tones dead neutral or shift to warm sepia shades).

If you don't have the problem with other papers, I'd just write it 
off as an incompatibility between the ink and paper...I like both, 
but they may not be a good combo.


Tom O'Connell



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "nick90290" 
<NickBrandt@a...> wrote:
> I have been having huge problems with Lyson small gamut inks 
shifting 
> from sepia to greenish hue in a matter of months. These are prints 
> that are both framed and sealed under glass in low-humidity,
> primarily 
> incandescent light settings, and also prints simply stored in a 
> drawer. They are printed on Hahnemule Cotton Rag paper, and sprayed 
> with coats of Lyson Print Guard. In other words, you couldn't do 
> everything more right if you tried. 
> 
> I have called Lyson in the US and the UK and both technical 
> departments say that they have never had anyone call about this 
> problem before. And yet in limited reearch, I have already
> encountered 
> a few other people with the same problem. Lyson have all along 
> adamantly maintained that their inks have an archival value of 70 
> years. To me, this is clearly irresponsible, inaccurate marketing, 
to 

> say the least. 
> 
> So my question is...is there anyone out there having the same 
> problems............

Hi Tom

Thanks for your response. 

In reference to your question of incompatabilty between the Lyson 
Small Gamut inks and the Hahnemule German Etching paper, there would 
not be an incompatability problem, as the Hahnemule is more or less 
identical to the Lysonic Standard Fine Art, which Lyson obviously 
recommend, and Lumijet Classic Velour, all of which I use. I have
also 
used Concorde Rag,  Lumijet Woven Fibre and plain old Epson Archival 
Matte, and in ALL instances, the prints have eventually shifted, no 
matter whether they were in my house, someone else's house. 

The techs at Lyson have no idea what has caused this, but there are 
enough people on digital print forums expressing zero surprise that 
this happens...........

Hi Nick-

I'm not doubting that you have the problem at all...nor surprised to 
hear of some shift with dye inks (at least during drying period of a 
few days), but I am surprised to hear of GREEN shift.

Almost sounds like the old Piezo "Greenies" which were a real curse 
to those who had it. Just to be safe you might try some of the things 
that worked for them...the same as for monster clogs...paper towel 
under print head cleaning, some purges with good cleaning carts and a 
purge image, etc.

You don't mention if this happens with other papers than HPR? how 
about if you DON'T coat it? same problem? same timeframe? Just to 
check everything (don't feel insulted)...did you use a cleaning cart 
when you switched inksets? (never a bad idea even if the inks 
are "compatible" since you have to flush anyhow).

I guess the other possibility is that you have some carts from a bad 
batch? You might try some from a different source...and if they work, 
then return all the ones you have from your current source. This is 
actually a decent possibility...the dye inksets from whatever source 
just have many fewer problems than the pigment inks for a variety of 
reasons that relate to the size of the particles in the suspended 
liquid (not to mention that the printers were designed for dye ink).

I guess the only thing I can think of I haven't mentioned that you 
might want to check...what do your nozzle check patterns look like? 
have you done a purge sheet to see if all the nozzles are printing 
full force? have you done a step chart to see how the ink is being 
laid down across the 0-255 range?

maybe some of the others who have had LSG go green on them can chime 
in so we can have more data on what the problem really is...

Tom O'Connell