Digital BW, The Print

I use the Piezography BW plugin (version 6 which prints 16-bit files) 
and always scan my b&w negs in the 16-bit mode.

Before, in order to sharpen my picture (just before printing), I used 
the UltraSharpen Pro actions set which does not work with 16-bit 
files (because of the layers I suppose).

Question : how to sharpen the finalized version of my pics in PS7 
without going down to the 8-bit mode and then back to the 16-bit for 
the print process?

May be the sharpener pro software of Nik deals now with 16-bit files 
(I do not think so, but please confirm).

Thanks

Jean-Marc Humbert
Paris, France

> Question : how to sharpen the finalized version of my pics in PS7 
> without going down to the 8-bit mode and then back to the 16-bit for 
> the print process?

Use RKD Smartesharpen X.

You can buy a copy and read a review here:
http://www.outbackphoto.com/filters/01_smartersharpenX/smshx.html

Neatimage Pro can also do 16bit files and will sharpen without
enhancing grain:
www.neatimage.com

>>... in PS7 without going down to the 8-bit mode and then back to the
16-bit for the print process?<<

In a situation where you have been forced to downsample to 8 bit, is there
any reason to go back to 16 bit?  Once that data has been "thrown away," you
can't get it back except by interpolation which is just making up data,
right?

Thanks,
Doug

Once you're done with all curves/tone adjustments and ready to print
there's no need to stay in 16bit anymore...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jean-Marc Humbert [mailto:humbertjm@...] 
> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 4:02 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files
> 
> ...
> 
> Question : how to sharpen the finalized version of my pics in PS7 
> without going down to the 8-bit mode and then back to the 16-bit for 
> the print process?
> 
> May be the sharpener pro software of Nik deals now with 16-bit files 
> (I do not think so, but please confirm).
>
> ...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Loris Medici" 
<lorism@t...> wrote:
> 
> Once you're done with all curves/tone adjustments and ready to print
> there's no need to stay in 16bit anymore...
> 

I don't think so.

If you use Piezography BW plugin (which is a driver replacing the 
Epson one), it is strongly recommanded to keep as much information as 
possible (the highest dpi and the highest bit rate). 

That's probably the reason why Jon Cone upgraded its Piezography BW  
plugin (to a version 6 which works with 16-bit files) and why its Pro 
version of Piezography handles also 16-bit files: I do not know the 
technical reasons and if there is really a difference between 8-bit 
and 16-bit files for printing (may be its a pure commercial argument).

I had tried in the last months to initiate a thread dealing with the 
esthetic differences between 8-bit files and 16-bit files printed via 
the PiezographyBW plugin (see the piezo3000 newsgroup) with no clear 
answers.

Jean-Marc Humbert
Paris, France

Jean-Marc

I think the point is that if you want to do curve/tone/etc. adjustments in PS you need to be in 8-bit mode.  Once you are in that mode, there is no point in converting back to 16-bit mode to print as you gain nothing.  The additional 16-bit data is already lost and your prints will look no better converting to 16-bit to print than if you left them in 8-bit.

Of course, if your scanned images need no adjustment then print in 16-bit.

Simon

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jean-Marc Humbert 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 4:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Loris Medici" 
  <lorism@t...> wrote:
  > 
  > Once you're done with all curves/tone adjustments and ready to print
  > there's no need to stay in 16bit anymore...
  > 

  I don't think so.

  If you use Piezography BW plugin (which is a driver replacing the 
  Epson one), it is strongly recommanded to keep as much information as 
  possible (the highest dpi and the highest bit rate). 

  That's probably the reason why Jon Cone upgraded its Piezography BW  
  plugin (to a version 6 which works with 16-bit files) and why its Pro 
  version of Piezography handles also 16-bit files: I do not know the 
  technical reasons and if there is really a difference between 8-bit 
  and 16-bit files for printing (may be its a pure commercial argument).

  I had tried in the last months to initiate a thread dealing with the 
  esthetic differences between 8-bit files and 16-bit files printed via 
  the PiezographyBW plugin (see the piezo3000 newsgroup) with no clear 
  answers.

  Jean-Marc Humbert
  Paris, France




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't think that is true Simon. A lot of us spend a lot of time finding
workarounds for layers-type moves in 16 bit. All curves and levels moves
should ideally be in 16bit.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon Lamb" <simon@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files


> Jean-Marc
>
> I think the point is that if you want to do curve/tone/etc. adjustments in
PS you need to be in 8-bit mode.  Once you are in that mode, there is no
point in converting back to 16-bit mode to print as you gain nothing.  The
additional 16-bit data is already lost and your prints will look no better
converting to 16-bit to print than if you left them in 8-bit.
>
> Of course, if your scanned images need no adjustment then print in 16-bit.
>
> Simon
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jean-Marc Humbert
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 4:02 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files
>
>
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Loris Medici"
>   <lorism@t...> wrote:
>   >
>   > Once you're done with all curves/tone adjustments and ready to print
>   > there's no need to stay in 16bit anymore...
>   >
>
>   I don't think so.
>
>   If you use Piezography BW plugin (which is a driver replacing the
>   Epson one), it is strongly recommanded to keep as much information as
>   possible (the highest dpi and the highest bit rate).
>
>   That's probably the reason why Jon Cone upgraded its Piezography BW
>   plugin (to a version 6 which works with 16-bit files) and why its Pro
>   version of Piezography handles also 16-bit files: I do not know the
>   technical reasons and if there is really a difference between 8-bit
>   and 16-bit files for printing (may be its a pure commercial argument).
>
>   I had tried in the last months to initiate a thread dealing with the
>   esthetic differences between 8-bit files and 16-bit files printed via
>   the PiezographyBW plugin (see the piezo3000 newsgroup) with no clear
>   answers.
>
>   Jean-Marc Humbert
>   Paris, France
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Simon Lamb"
<simon@s...> wrote:
> Jean-Marc
> 
> I think the point is that if you want to do curve/tone/etc.
adjustments in PS you need to be in 8-bit mode.

Simon, actually any tonal adjustment that might be necessary for B&W
print work is available in 16 bit mode. If you prefer to use
adjustment layers, work on an 8 bit dupe, and transfer over your
adjustments to the hi bit file when ready.
Of course, you won't be be to paste a cute little ducky into a
mountain lake, but that's an entirely different subject.
By the way, the recomendations for special software seem moot, PS7's
sharpen filter works in 16 bit.
Tyler

Oh absolutely.  If you have found image adjustment functions that work in
16-bit then I agree, leave it in 16-bit for the workflow.  Can you share the
names of any that you have used that you feel work well, or have you devised
your own methods for working around the PS limitations.  I have tried a few
that work moderately well.

Simon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files


> I don't think that is true Simon. A lot of us spend a lot of time finding
> workarounds for layers-type moves in 16 bit. All curves and levels moves
> should ideally be in 16bit.
>
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Simon Lamb" <simon@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 5:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files
>
>
> > Jean-Marc
> >
> > I think the point is that if you want to do curve/tone/etc. adjustments
in
> PS you need to be in 8-bit mode.  Once you are in that mode, there is no
> point in converting back to 16-bit mode to print as you gain nothing.  The
> additional 16-bit data is already lost and your prints will look no better
> converting to 16-bit to print than if you left them in 8-bit.
> >
> > Of course, if your scanned images need no adjustment then print in
16-bit.

> >
> > Simon
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: Jean-Marc Humbert
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> >   Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 4:02 PM
> >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files
> >
> >
> >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Loris Medici"
> >   <lorism@t...> wrote:
> >   >
> >   > Once you're done with all curves/tone adjustments and ready to print
> >   > there's no need to stay in 16bit anymore...
> >   >
> >
> >   I don't think so.
> >
> >   If you use Piezography BW plugin (which is a driver replacing the
> >   Epson one), it is strongly recommanded to keep as much information as
> >   possible (the highest dpi and the highest bit rate).
> >
> >   That's probably the reason why Jon Cone upgraded its Piezography BW
> >   plugin (to a version 6 which works with 16-bit files) and why its Pro
> >   version of Piezography handles also 16-bit files: I do not know the
> >   technical reasons and if there is really a difference between 8-bit
> >   and 16-bit files for printing (may be its a pure commercial argument).
> >
> >   I had tried in the last months to initiate a thread dealing with the
> >   esthetic differences between 8-bit files and 16-bit files printed via
> >   the PiezographyBW plugin (see the piezo3000 newsgroup) with no clear
> >   answers.
> >
> >   Jean-Marc Humbert
> >   Paris, France
> >

Well, sort of.

The only failing with a photo in 16-bit with Curves is the inability to
do a Fade>Luminosity or Fade>Color; likewise a Fade of Gaussian Blur or
USM is not possible.

Seth

=From: Julian Thomas [mailto:julianthomas@...] 
=
=I don't think that is true Simon. A lot of us spend a lot of 
=time finding workarounds for layers-type moves in 16 bit. All 
=curves and levels moves should ideally be in 16bit.
=
=Julian

All I do is work on an 8 bit dupe and then 'load selection' until everything
is in the  16bit original.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon Lamb" <simon@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files


> Oh absolutely.  If you have found image adjustment functions that work in
> 16-bit then I agree, leave it in 16-bit for the workflow.  Can you share
the
> names of any that you have used that you feel work well, or have you
devised
> your own methods for working around the PS limitations.  I have tried a
few
> that work moderately well.
>
> Simon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 4:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files
>
>
> > I don't think that is true Simon. A lot of us spend a lot of time
finding
> > workarounds for layers-type moves in 16 bit. All curves and levels moves
> > should ideally be in 16bit.
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Simon Lamb" <simon@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 5:11 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files
> >
> >
> > > Jean-Marc
> > >
> > > I think the point is that if you want to do curve/tone/etc.
adjustments
> in
> > PS you need to be in 8-bit mode.  Once you are in that mode, there is no
> > point in converting back to 16-bit mode to print as you gain nothing.
The
> > additional 16-bit data is already lost and your prints will look no
better
> > converting to 16-bit to print than if you left them in 8-bit.
> > >
> > > Of course, if your scanned images need no adjustment then print in
> 16-bit.
> > >
> > > Simon
> > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > >   From: Jean-Marc Humbert
> > >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > >   Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 4:02 PM
> > >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files
> > >
> > >
> > >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Loris Medici"
> > >   <lorism@t...> wrote:
> > >   >
> > >   > Once you're done with all curves/tone adjustments and ready to
print
> > >   > there's no need to stay in 16bit anymore...
> > >   >
> > >
> > >   I don't think so.
> > >
> > >   If you use Piezography BW plugin (which is a driver replacing the
> > >   Epson one), it is strongly recommanded to keep as much information
as
> > >   possible (the highest dpi and the highest bit rate).
> > >
> > >   That's probably the reason why Jon Cone upgraded its Piezography BW
> > >   plugin (to a version 6 which works with 16-bit files) and why its
Pro
> > >   version of Piezography handles also 16-bit files: I do not know the
> > >   technical reasons and if there is really a difference between 8-bit
> > >   and 16-bit files for printing (may be its a pure commercial
argument).
> > >
> > >   I had tried in the last months to initiate a thread dealing with the
> > >   esthetic differences between 8-bit files and 16-bit files printed
via
> > >   the PiezographyBW plugin (see the piezo3000 newsgroup) with no clear
> > >   answers.
> > >
> > >   Jean-Marc Humbert
> > >   Paris, France
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Salut Jean-Marc,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean-Marc Humbert" <humbertjm@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Loris Medici"
> <lorism@t...> wrote:
> >
> > Once you're done with all curves/tone adjustments and ready to print
> > there's no need to stay in 16bit anymore...
> >
>
> I don't think so.

My point was that "sharpening is usually done as the last step before
printing" and - although I'm not completely sure - inkjet printer hardware
is probably 8bit not 16 so I don't think that any software (OEM driver or
piezo plug-in and such) is actually sending 16bit data to the printer. I'm
sure that there's people present in the list with much more printer hardware
knowledge than I have, so if I'm wrong please correct me.

I did some tests months ago outputting 16bit and 8bit versions of the same
16bit original file thru both the OEM driver and the plug-in. Result: I
couldn't see any quality difference YMMV.

Regards,
Loris.

I use the 16-bit edge sharpener from Fred Miranda and it seems to work fine.
http://www.fredmiranda.com/actions

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean-Marc Humbert" <humbertjm@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 8:02 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files


> I use the Piezography BW plugin (version 6 which prints 16-bit files)
> and always scan my b&w negs in the 16-bit mode.
>
> Before, in order to sharpen my picture (just before printing), I used
> the UltraSharpen Pro actions set which does not work with 16-bit
> files (because of the layers I suppose).
>
> Question : how to sharpen the finalized version of my pics in PS7
> without going down to the 8-bit mode and then back to the 16-bit for
> the print process?
>
> May be the sharpener pro software of Nik deals now with 16-bit files
> (I do not think so, but please confirm).
>
> Thanks
>
> Jean-Marc Humbert
> Paris, France
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

The review link on your site seems to be nonoperational.

Brian P.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> > Question : how to sharpen the finalized version of my pics in PS7 
> > without going down to the 8-bit mode and then back to the 16-bit 
for 

> > the print process?
> 
> Use RKD Smartesharpen X.
> 
> You can buy a copy and read a review here:
> http://www.outbackphoto.com/filters/01_smartersharpenX/smshx.html
> 
> Neatimage Pro can also do 16bit files and will sharpen without
> enhancing grain:
> www.neatimage.com

Was able to get to the review using a link from a different page.

Brian P.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian P" 
<bdplikaytis@y...> wrote:
> The review link on your site seems to be nonoperational.
> 
> Brian P.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver" 
> <daniel@p...> wrote:
> > > Question : how to sharpen the finalized version of my pics in 
PS7 
> > > without going down to the 8-bit mode and then back to the 16-
bit 

> for 
> > > the print process?
> > 
> > Use RKD Smartesharpen X.
> > 
> > You can buy a copy and read a review here:
> > http://www.outbackphoto.com/filters/01_smartersharpenX/smshx.html
> > 
> > Neatimage Pro can also do 16bit files and will sharpen without
> > enhancing grain:
> > www.neatimage.com

> The review link on your site seems to be nonoperational.

Try this one:
http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_07/essay.html

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> > The review link on your site seems to be nonoperational.
> 
> Try this one:
> http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_07/essay.html


Be carefull with the Smarter Sharpen X V2.0 plugin : I have asked 
them if it works with grayscale files : the answer is NO (you must 
convert your file in RGB).

Jean-Marc Humbert
Paris, France

> Be carefull with the Smarter Sharpen X V2.0 plugin : I have asked 
> them if it works with grayscale files : the answer is NO (you must 
> convert your file in RGB).

True. I find that annoying sometimes. However, I usually end up with
my files in RGB anyway, so personally it's not a big deal. If you want
to stay in grayscale you should avoid this plugin.

You can also try this one:
http://www.powerretouche.com/SharpnessUserguide.htm

It should do 16bit grayscale. I haven't used it personally so I don't
know if it's any good.

Thanks - I'm going to give it a try this weekend.

Brian P.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:

> > The review link on your site seems to be nonoperational.
> 
> Try this one:
> http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_07/essay.html

From: "Jean-Marc Humbert" <humbertjm@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: 22 April, 2003 15:02
Subject: [Digital BW] sharpening and 16-bit files

Jean-Marc

I've started using Picture Window Pro (PC only) (www.dl-c.com) a few
years ago together with PS5.5. Since then I've never upgraded PS
because PWPro gives me all I need to manipulate my photographs. The
main thing is that *all* manipulations can be done in 16-bit mode.
Different sharpening methods available. You can try a trial version
for a limited period. The support from DL-C on their own message board
is excellent and you get answers direct from the designer. A new
upgrade is expected in a few months time incorporating, among other
things, user recomendations.

Reinier van der Ryst