Digital BW, The Print

I developed two rolls of FP4+ last night in HD-11 and do not recall 
doing anything I had not done 50 or 100 times before.  However, when 
I scanned the negatives they were "filthy."  A very large number of 
small white spots all over the frame.  Looking at the negs with a 
loupe I can see black spots all over.  I am not sure that they are 
dust as they are black.  I used brand new fixer, and I think the stop 
bath and clearer are ok.  Any ideas as to what might be causing 
this??  I air dried the film in the same bathroom I always do and 
neither the hear nor the air came on.  

Most of the negatives on both rolls are beyond spotting with the 
clone tool.  The only thing I can think of is that it was a humid 
night and perhaps the film was not quite dry when I put it in the 
sleeves.  But, not really likely.

While I always assume that there is a fixed ratio of dumb mistakes to 
rolls developed, I would like to know what happened.

Any help appreciated. 

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Kobrin" 
<skobrin@h...> wrote:
> I developed two rolls of FP4+ last night in HD-11 and do not recall 
> doing anything I had not done 50 or 100 times before.  However, 
when 
> I scanned the negatives they were "filthy."  A very large number of 
> small white spots all over the frame.  Looking at the negs with a 
> loupe I can see black spots all over.  I am not sure that they are 
> dust as they are black.  I used brand new fixer, and I think the 
stop 
> bath and clearer are ok.  Any ideas as to what might be causing 
> this??  I air dried the film in the same bathroom I always do and 
> neither the hear nor the air came on.  
> 
> Most of the negatives on both rolls are beyond spotting with the 
> clone tool.  The only thing I can think of is that it was a humid 
> night and perhaps the film was not quite dry when I put it in the 
> sleeves.  But, not really likely.
> 
> While I always assume that there is a fixed ratio of dumb mistakes 
to 
> rolls developed, I would like to know what happened.
> 
> Any help appreciated. 
> 
> Steve


 I had the same problem on an occasional basis and decided the 
problem may be caused by impurities appearing at random times in the 
water and contaminating the surface at the last stage of the process. 
I eliminated this by pouring ordinary bottled water - bought at any 
store, over the film from top to bottom instead of the usual soak in 
a photoflo type solution. If this does not work try wearing well 
washed surgical gloves when hanging the film up to dry.  Just a 
couple of thoughts which may help.  best of luck  .  .  .  .  John

Stephen - do you mean that the spots on the negatives were clear or black?
Do they appear to be in the image or on top of the emulsion or backing??

The spots are black, but are virtually impossible to see with a five 
power loupe.  In fact,they were not obvious in the prescan and only 
apparent in the 5x7 PS image -- very obvious when I zoomed in once.  
However, they are apparent in a 5X7 print.  I really cannot tell 
which side of the negative they are on.  Very hard to see most of 
them.  It is also of interest that they are discrete spots.

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stephen 
Petegorsky <petegorsky@e...> wrote:
> Stephen - do you mean that the spots on the negatives were clear or 
black?
> Do they appear to be in the image or on top of the emulsion or 
backing??

How old is the film? Was it gray market? Was it refrigerated? If so did 
it have plenty of time to warm up or is it possible it had moisture 
condense on it? Could be a fungus. Do you have more unexposed rolls you 
could have processed elsewhere (lab, friend, etc.)? Did you call Ilford 
yet? They are VERY good about troubleshooting.
Mark

Stephen Kobrin wrote:

> The spots are black, but are virtually impossible to see with a five
> power loupe.  In fact,they were not obvious in the prescan and only
> apparent in the 5x7 PS image -- very obvious when I zoomed in once. 
> However, they are apparent in a 5X7 print.  I really cannot tell
> which side of the negative they are on.  Very hard to see most of
> them.  It is also of interest that they are discrete spots.
>
> Steve
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stephen
> Petegorsky <petegorsky@e...> wrote:
> > Stephen - do you mean that the spots on the negatives were clear or
> black?
> > Do they appear to be in the image or on top of the emulsion or
> backing??
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It is relatively new and not gray market.  It was refrigerated, but 
there were two rolls and one was out of the refrigerator for two days 
before I shot it.  I just checked with an 8 power loupe and can 
barely see the specs...but they are there when I look at a 5X7 (print 
size) scan, especially when I zoom in at the "fit on screen" level.

I will clean everything thoroughly and process the next roll with 
bottled water.  The specs are much to small be be dust from the 
drying process.

Thanks for the suggestions.,

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia 
<mark@c...> wrote:
> How old is the film? Was it gray market? Was it refrigerated? If so 
did 
> it have plenty of time to warm up or is it possible it had moisture 
> condense on it? Could be a fungus. Do you have more unexposed rolls 
you 
> could have processed elsewhere (lab, friend, etc.)? Did you call 
Ilford 
> yet? They are VERY good about troubleshooting.
> Mark
> 
> Stephen Kobrin wrote:
> 
> > The spots are black, but are virtually impossible to see with a 
five
> > power loupe.  In fact,they were not obvious in the prescan and 
only
> > apparent in the 5x7 PS image -- very obvious when I zoomed in 
once. 
> > However, they are apparent in a 5X7 print.  I really cannot tell
> > which side of the negative they are on.  Very hard to see most of
> > them.  It is also of interest that they are discrete spots.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stephen
> > Petegorsky <petegorsky@e...> wrote:
> > > Stephen - do you mean that the spots on the negatives were 
clear or
> > black?
> > > Do they appear to be in the image or on top of the emulsion or
> > backing??
> >
> >
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> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls 
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I had a similar problem with FP4 and Pan F a few years back. Both 
films were purchased from B&H, and I took them on a trip to Greece 
with out realizing I had a problem. My take is that it was a fungus, 
but I suppose it could also have been a manufacturing problem. I 
don't think it could be a development problem unless there is some 
particulate matter in the developer or your first water bath 
(assuming you use one)that inhibits development. In my case It was 
many years before I bought B&W film from B&H again. Best luck 
figuring it out, it's a tough one!

Steve Karafyllakis.
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen 
Kobrin" <skobrin@h...> wrote:
> It is relatively new and not gray market.  It was refrigerated, 
but 
> there were two rolls and one was out of the refrigerator for two 
days 
> before I shot it.  I just checked with an 8 power loupe and can 
> barely see the specs...but they are there when I look at a 5X7 
(print 
> size) scan, especially when I zoom in at the "fit on screen" level.
> 
> I will clean everything thoroughly and process the next roll with 
> bottled water.  The specs are much to small be be dust from the 
> drying process.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions.,
> 
> Steve
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia 
> <mark@c...> wrote:
> > How old is the film? Was it gray market? Was it refrigerated? If 
so 
> did 
> > it have plenty of time to warm up or is it possible it had 
moisture 
> > condense on it? Could be a fungus. Do you have more unexposed 
rolls 
> you 
> > could have processed elsewhere (lab, friend, etc.)? Did you call 
> Ilford 
> > yet? They are VERY good about troubleshooting.
> > Mark
> > 
> > Stephen Kobrin wrote:
> > 
> > > The spots are black, but are virtually impossible to see with 
a 
> five
> > > power loupe.  In fact,they were not obvious in the prescan and 
> only
> > > apparent in the 5x7 PS image -- very obvious when I zoomed in 
> once. 
> > > However, they are apparent in a 5X7 print.  I really cannot 
tell
> > > which side of the negative they are on.  Very hard to see most 
of
> > > them.  It is also of interest that they are discrete spots.
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stephen
> > > Petegorsky <petegorsky@e...> wrote:
> > > > Stephen - do you mean that the spots on the negatives were 
> clear or
> > > black?
> > > > Do they appear to be in the image or on top of the emulsion 
or
> > > backing??
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > ADVERTISEMENT
> > > Click Here! 
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> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
> Polls 
> > > and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is 
> at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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you 
> wish 
> > > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
> visiting 
> > > this same page.
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> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> messages to 
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> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject 
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or 
> flames
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> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
the 

> > > various resources on the homepage.
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> Service 
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> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stephen Kobrin" <skobrin@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:02 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] help with developing problem


> I developed two rolls of FP4+ last night in HD-11 and do not recall
> doing anything I had not done 50 or 100 times before.  However, when
> I scanned the negatives they were "filthy."  A very large number of
> small white spots all over the frame.  Looking at the negs with a
> loupe I can see black spots all over.  I am not sure that they are
> dust as they are black.  I used brand new fixer, and I think the stop
> bath and clearer are ok.  Any ideas as to what might be causing
> this??  I air dried the film in the same bathroom I always do and
> neither the hear nor the air came on.
>
> Most of the negatives on both rolls are beyond spotting with the
> clone tool.  The only thing I can think of is that it was a humid
> night and perhaps the film was not quite dry when I put it in the
> sleeves.  But, not really likely.
>
> While I always assume that there is a fixed ratio of dumb mistakes to
> rolls developed, I would like to know what happened.
>
> Any help appreciated.
>
Steve,

I have shot and developed a lot of FP4 and I have seen this happen but
always assumed it was a result of using pyro developers. What it appears to
be is a crystal growth that occurs during the wash cycle. My cure is to run
the film gently through my fingers while under flowing water to dislodge and
wash away the particles. Once they have dried in place I have not been able
to removed them and have found that they can grow with time on the negative.
I have no explanation for the phenomenon. There is one nice shot that I
spent many hours spotting all of the garbage out. If you have a real keeper
of a shot it can be done in PS. One of the reasons I pursued digital
printing.

Martin Wesley

Hello Stephen,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Kobrin [mailto:skobrin@...] 
> Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 4:12 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] help with developing problem
> 
> 
> It is relatively new and not gray market.  It was refrigerated, but 
> there were two rolls and one was out of the refrigerator for two days 
> before I shot it.  I just checked with an 8 power loupe and can 
> barely see the specs...but they are there when I look at a 5X7 (print 
> size) scan, especially when I zoom in at the "fit on screen" level.

I just don't get it:

You barely see it on the negative with a 8x loupe but you can clearly
see it on a 5x7" print. It doesn't make sense to me. 5x7" is rougly 5x
(5.3x exactly) magnification. Logically, the scan - which is only 5x
magnification - should show much less specs than the 8x loupe
inspection. Maybe the problem is more related to the scanning (dirt on
bed or optics) and/or printing workflow/software.

BTW not directly related to your problem but... it is not a good
practice to inspect the print in "fit on screen" zoom. The quick
interpolation algorithm used by PS often shows (actually non-present)
specs and artifacts. It is better to examine it in 100% or "print size"
zoom.

Regards,
Loris.

Thanks Martin,

In fact, I did spot one last night and got to the point in about a 
half hour where the damage was not obvious in the print.  Will try 
again, using more care at the end of the wash cycle.  I did switch 
from Kodak to Ilford Rapid Fix and I wonder if it was either a bad 
batch or the Ilford requires a longer wash than the Kodak.  I usually 
wash for seven to eight minutes after using a hypo clearing agent.

Steve

> Steve,
> 
> I have shot and developed a lot of FP4 and I have seen this happen 
but
> always assumed it was a result of using pyro developers. What it 
appears to
> be is a crystal growth that occurs during the wash cycle. My cure 
is to run
> the film gently through my fingers while under flowing water to 
dislodge and
> wash away the particles. Once they have dried in place I have not 
been able
> to removed them and have found that they can grow with time on the 
negative.
> I have no explanation for the phenomenon. There is one nice shot 
that I
> spent many hours spotting all of the garbage out. If you have a 
real keeper

> of a shot it can be done in PS. One of the reasons I pursued digital
> printing.
> 
> Martin Wesley

Hello,
 
This is just a thought from my "far past" processing of film.  It would occur when using a strong stopbath between the developer and the fixer. At the time it was determined to be explosions within the emulsion. Of course the emulsions were thicker back then. To overcome this phenom we used a plain water bath instead of the acid.  Just a thought and I don't know if this would be the cause of your black spot problem.
 
T

Stephen Kobrin <skobrin@...> wrote:
Thanks Martin,

In fact, I did spot one last night and got to the point in about a 
half hour where the damage was not obvious in the print.  Will try 
again, using more care at the end of the wash cycle.  I did switch 
from Kodak to Ilford Rapid Fix and I wonder if it was either a bad 
batch or the Ilford requires a longer wash than the Kodak.  I usually 
wash for seven to eight minutes after using a hypo clearing agent.

Steve

> Steve,
> 
> I have shot and developed a lot of FP4 and I have seen this happen 
but
> always assumed it was a result of using pyro developers. What it 
appears to
> be is a crystal growth that occurs during the wash cycle. My cure 
is to run
> the film gently through my fingers while under flowing water to 
dislodge and
> wash away the particles. Once they have dried in place I have not 
been able
> to removed them and have found that they can grow with time on the 
negative.
> I have no explanation for the phenomenon. There is one nice shot 
that I
> spent many hours spotting all of the garbage out. If you have a 
real keeper
> of a shot it can be done in PS. One of the reasons I pursued digital
> printing.
> 
> Martin Wesley


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- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stephen Kobrin" <skobrin@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 5:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] help with developing problem


> Thanks Martin,
>
> In fact, I did spot one last night and got to the point in about a
> half hour where the damage was not obvious in the print.  Will try
> again, using more care at the end of the wash cycle.  I did switch
> from Kodak to Ilford Rapid Fix and I wonder if it was either a bad
> batch or the Ilford requires a longer wash than the Kodak.  I usually
> wash for seven to eight minutes after using a hypo clearing agent.
>
Steve,

I've used Ilford Rapid Fix for years and the problem comes and goes. As
someone else mentioned it is very likely the hardness of the wash water
which would not be constant. Our water here is well water with a high
mineral content.

Martin

Martin, it is a mystery.  One of my favorite photos is a portrait of my wife
(she said she'd kill me for the insurance if I ever showed it, and it showed
up on the cover of a catalog....), on 8x10 TMY processed in PMK.  Makes a
nice pt print, but scanning it was a nightmare - I hadn't thought of it as a
crystal growth but that is sure what it looks like.  With Rollo pyro and
Bergger 200, there is what looks like digital camera noise when scanning.  I
also have no idea.

  --Ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] help with developing problem


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Kobrin" <skobrin@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:02 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] help with developing problem
>
>
> > I developed two rolls of FP4+ last night in HD-11 and do not recall
> > doing anything I had not done 50 or 100 times before.  However, when
> > I scanned the negatives they were "filthy."  A very large number of
> > small white spots all over the frame.  Looking at the negs with a
> > loupe I can see black spots all over.  I am not sure that they are
> > dust as they are black.  I used brand new fixer, and I think the stop
> > bath and clearer are ok.  Any ideas as to what might be causing
> > this??  I air dried the film in the same bathroom I always do and
> > neither the hear nor the air came on.
> >
> > Most of the negatives on both rolls are beyond spotting with the
> > clone tool.  The only thing I can think of is that it was a humid
> > night and perhaps the film was not quite dry when I put it in the
> > sleeves.  But, not really likely.
> >
> > While I always assume that there is a fixed ratio of dumb mistakes to
> > rolls developed, I would like to know what happened.
> >
> > Any help appreciated.
> >
> Steve,
>
> I have shot and developed a lot of FP4 and I have seen this happen but
> always assumed it was a result of using pyro developers. What it appears
to
> be is a crystal growth that occurs during the wash cycle. My cure is to
run
> the film gently through my fingers while under flowing water to dislodge
and
> wash away the particles. Once they have dried in place I have not been
able
> to removed them and have found that they can grow with time on the
negative.
> I have no explanation for the phenomenon. There is one nice shot that I
> spent many hours spotting all of the garbage out. If you have a real
keeper
> of a shot it can be done in PS. One of the reasons I pursued digital
> printing.
>
> Martin Wesley
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Sorry I didn't get to this earlier.  Clear spots in the film mean too much
acid in the stop bath, because it causes gassing in the subbing.  Dark spots
mean either not enough acid in the stop, or exhausted stop, or contamination
caused by trace amounts of developer still present on the film when it
arrives in the fixer.  If there is a brown ring around the stain, that would
be proof enough for me.  The best book on the subject is STAINS ON NEGATIVES
AND PRINTS published by Kodak (now out of print).  In twenty years, neither
EK or Ilford rapid fix have caused this problem in my darkroom, because I
use separate tanks for each chemical.  One thing more to lookout for if you
use Tmax developer is be sure you get all the photoflo off your reel and
tank perfectly first or you may experience splotchy development.

Tom Robinson

>> Thanks Martin,
>> 
>> In fact, I did spot one last night and got to the point in about a
>> half hour where the damage was not obvious in the print.  Will try
>> again, using more care at the end of the wash cycle.  I did switch
>> from Kodak to Ilford Rapid Fix and I wonder if it was either a bad
>> batch or the Ilford requires a longer wash than the Kodak.  I usually
>> wash for seven to eight minutes after using a hypo clearing agent.
>> 
> Steve,
> 
> I've used Ilford Rapid Fix for years and the problem comes and goes. As
> someone else mentioned it is very likely the hardness of the wash water
> which would not be constant. Our water here is well water with a high
> mineral content.
> 
> Martin