From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Getting started -- Cone or MIS?
Martin,
I think a lot of the problems with piezo are down to the printer. I have had
one 'bad' 1160. Which clogged, needed loads of care and was eventually
replaced under warranty. I now have two 1160s that work flawlessly. One
printer has just printed 25 exhibition prints (A3+), 35 portfolio prints
(A3), 25 sheets A3+ of business cards, 25 A4 press prints (glossy), plus
work prints. Without a single clog. However, especially for those of us in
Europe, piezo inks are very expensive. Could you talk more about the
difference between Piezo and FIS with the piezo driver? I'm getting a number
of people in Spain (hi Jose!) looking at my prints and wondering which way
to jump. I'm advising to go with Piezo first as an out of the box solution,
and then to try FIS with the piezo driver. The profiles and software of
piezo are important for beginners IMO. Also I believe that people thinking
of buying a system need to see the prints and should be wary of making
decisions based on 'list-talk'. When I show prints ot people, I always try
and show more than one paper (yesterday I showed WT and Photorag - the
difference between the two is large IMO).
Like Jerry, I think that the piezo demo print is a bad one, and Som. En is a
bad paper to use for a demo - it must be the 'warmest' paper around for
piezo.
Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 7:38 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Getting started -- Cone or MIS?
> Jim,
>
> I'm glad to hear you are getting some good results. I also salute
> your persistence through all the problems you have had over the past
> few months. This list is new and a lot of the MIS users are new to
> the inks as well, but so far I don't think there has been any mention
> of a clogging problem with MIS inks.
>
> I am running the MIS VM in a 1280 and three times I have had visible
> white banding that was quickly traced to one or two non-firing
> nozzles. So far only on the black cartridge. A single nozzle clean
> cycle cleared up the problem twice and once I had to run the cycle 3
> times. So at this point clogging appears to be on a level with the
> Epson inks. Time may prove differently but so far it is a great
> relief over the many over night waits I had to do with Piezo on my
> 1200. In fact when I fired up the CIS with the MIS on the 1280 I was
> able to print immediately.
>
> I have three prints by Bernd Langmack of the same image from an 8x10
> negative. One with Piezo inks, one with MIS FS inks with the Piezo
> driver and one with MIS FS inks with the Epson drivers. All were done
> on an 1160 and all three are excellent. The Piezo print is perhaps
> the best Piezo print I have ever seen with no detectable pattern
> under magnification at all (unlike my 1200). The same is true for the
> MIS with the Piezo driver. The contrast and tone are different from
> the Piezo but I would not say one is better. On the print using the
> MIS with the Epson driver I can see the dot pattern in the high
> lights but only with magnification. At a normal viewing distance the
> pattern is invisible. No banding of any kind on the three prins.
>
> With the Piezo driver I see little or no advantage to using a 6-ink
> printer. With the Epson driver I do see an advantage. The dots are
> not smaller but with more nozzles the dot pattern gets harder to
> detect.
>
> I can see some microscopic banding with the MIS on the 1280 with the
> Epson driver. It is not light banding but more of a vague linear
> pattern in the darker tones. This only shows up in very smooth areas
> of the print and is completely invisible if there is any pattern or
> texture in the image. Not an issue for normal viewing in any case and
> much less noticeable then the microscopic light banding and window
> screen with Piezo on the 1200.
>
> I will probably give Piezo another try when both the "selenium" inks
> and the 1280 driver are available. Hopefully ConeTech will have
> resolved the clogging issues with the new ink.
>
> For new comers I have a hard time telling them which way to go. With
> the Piezo the software end is really nice and I think you can get to
> a tonally good print more quickly. On the other hand Piezo has all
> these clogging problems that get to be a major source of frustration
> plus the "Hayes syndrome" and the yellow or olive-green cast
> metamerism that some people see under artificial light.
>
> With the MIS there appear to be none of the mechanical issues but the
> current workflows are not as well developed and you may have to spend
> more time working with your images and/or the curves to refine your
> final prints. This is an evolving situation and the gap will narrow
> with time. Actual use of the workflows is not as user friendly as
> Piezo but what you have to do is rather trivial. I see some
> metamerism with the MIS VM but it is in reverse with a blue-green
> cast in daylight and neutral under artificial light.
>
> Please keep us posted on your progress. I sincerely hope you can get
> back to printing and can stop all the testing and cleaning!
>
> Martin
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Jim Hayes" <jimhayes@j...>
> wrote:
> > A caution: I had a problem with Piezo inks. I no longer think they
> are
> > viable for longterm use in 1160. Hate to say that, that's just my
> > experience. My experience with MIS inks is new, so they are to be
> > taken as my initial impressions only.
> >
> > After a year with Piezo inks, I'm discontinuing them. I can't clear
> my
> > printer fully of what is now called "Hayes Syndrome" on the Piezo
> > list. When I compare MIS Full Spectrum inks set up on a spare 1160
> > with the Piezo prints from my old clogging up with Piezo printer,
> the
> > Piezo inks definetly have a green tinge, and remnants of the other
> > symptoms.
> >
> > I very much like the tone of these FS MIS inks, a bit warm but
> nice,
> > not sickly.
> >
> > Until this problem is solved (and Cone says he IS working on it)
> I'm
> > not going back. I really don't mean to badmouth his setup<sigh>.
> >
> > OTOH I find that even using John Woolf's workflow, when I examine
> > prints done with Epson driver ("error diffusion" setting") vs Piezo
> > driver with MIS FS inks, I can see dots in highlights and I get
> very
> > tiny tiny microbanding with Epson driver/Woolf workflow....but the
> > Piezo driver is smooth. This is counter-intuitive for microbanding,
> > but there it is. Please note that I only see the highlight dots and
> > microbanding when using my CRI 98 Ott-lite and viewing from 1 foot
> > away. I don't know why, but viewed under typical tungsten lighting
> of
> > varying intensity, I can't see the dots/banding at all.
> >
> > The piezo driver seems (still some uncertainy)to print a bit
> > contratier than the Epson. In this case for some photos, I wonder
> if
> > the Epson driver still might be better, if a textured paper was
> used.
> > S. E. photo textured paper seems to "almost" hide the microbanding
> > even when I put the Ott-lite up real close.
> >
> > I am curious if I have the settings wrong for the Woolf workflow.
> His
> > screen shot of settings did not match my driver dialogue choices,
> so I
> > e-mailed him as to the discrepancies (i.e. "Halftone" setting not
> > availabe, J.W.---->use "error diffusion" instead).
> >
> > So, if I can swing it, I'll be using the Piezo driver with MIS FS
> > inkset. I am going to conduct my usual fade testing of some papers
> > profiled by Cone in this manner, as some on the Piezo list are
> aware I
> > already do.
> > Jim H.
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 19
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:34:20 -0500
From: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Getting started -- Cone or MIS?
Jim Do try the VM inks and Paul Roark's curves. Absolutely no dots and
no banding.
Jerry
Jim Hayes wrote:
>
> A caution: I had a problem with Piezo inks. I no longer think they are
> viable for longterm use in 1160. Hate to say that, that's just my
> experience. My experience with MIS inks is new, so they are to be
> taken as my initial impressions only.
>
> After a year with Piezo inks, I'm discontinuing them. I can't clear my
> printer fully of what is now called "Hayes Syndrome" on the Piezo
> list. When I compare MIS Full Spectrum inks set up on a spare 1160
> with the Piezo prints from my old clogging up with Piezo printer, the
> Piezo inks definetly have a green tinge, and remnants of the other
> symptoms.
>
> I very much like the tone of these FS MIS inks, a bit warm but nice,
> not sickly.
>
> Until this problem is solved (and Cone says he IS working on it) I'm
> not going back. I really don't mean to badmouth his setup<sigh>.
>
> OTOH I find that even using John Woolf's workflow, when I examine
> prints done with Epson driver ("error diffusion" setting") vs Piezo
> driver with MIS FS inks, I can see dots in highlights and I get very
> tiny tiny microbanding with Epson driver/Woolf workflow....but the
> Piezo driver is smooth. This is counter-intuitive for microbanding,
> but there it is. Please note that I only see the highlight dots and
> microbanding when using my CRI 98 Ott-lite and viewing from 1 foot
> away. I don't know why, but viewed under typical tungsten lighting of
> varying intensity, I can't see the dots/banding at all.
>
> The piezo driver seems (still some uncertainy)to print a bit
> contratier than the Epson. In this case for some photos, I wonder if
> the Epson driver still might be better, if a textured paper was used.
> S. E. photo textured paper seems to "almost" hide the microbanding
> even when I put the Ott-lite up real close.
>
> I am curious if I have the settings wrong for the Woolf workflow. His
> screen shot of settings did not match my driver dialogue choices, so I
> e-mailed him as to the discrepancies (i.e. "Halftone" setting not
> availabe, J.W.---->use "error diffusion" instead).
>
> So, if I can swing it, I'll be using the Piezo driver with MIS FS
> inkset. I am going to conduct my usual fade testing of some papers
> profiled by Cone in this manner, as some on the Piezo list are aware I
> already do.
> Jim H.
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 20
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:55:04 -0700
From: "Chuck Ferris" <chuckferris@...>
Subject: Epson 3000 available
I have an Epson that I wish to sell.
I recently purchased a 7000 and no longer
have use for the 3000.
The unit is in excellent condition and
has had light use.
Call for details.
Chuck Ferris
415.453.3577
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 21
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:57:27 -0000
From: ramestic@...
Subject: Re: Getting started -- Cone or MIS?
Hello, after reading this list it really looks like an 8bit workflow
is "enough" for a desktop printer (like the 860/1160). Are you using a
printer like this ones?
I still do not quite understand why the Piezo people put some effort
in delivering a 16 bit driver for printers like the ones obove.
Comments are pretty much appreciated,
Rodrigo
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Jim Do try the VM inks and Paul Roark's curves. Absolutely no dots
and
> no banding.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
> Jim Hayes wrote:
> >
> > A caution: I had a problem with Piezo inks. I no longer think they
are
> > viable for longterm use in 1160. Hate to say that, that's just my
> > experience. My experience with MIS inks is new, so they are to be
> > taken as my initial impressions only.
> >
> > After a year with Piezo inks, I'm discontinuing them. I can't
clear my
> > printer fully of what is now called "Hayes Syndrome" on the Piezo
> > list. When I compare MIS Full Spectrum inks set up on a spare 1160
> > with the Piezo prints from my old clogging up with Piezo printer,
the
> > Piezo inks definetly have a green tinge, and remnants of the other
> > symptoms.
> >
> > I very much like the tone of these FS MIS inks, a bit warm but
nice,
> > not sickly.
> >
> > Until this problem is solved (and Cone says he IS working on it)
I'm
> > not going back. I really don't mean to badmouth his setup<sigh>.
> >
> > OTOH I find that even using John Woolf's workflow, when I examine
> > prints done with Epson driver ("error diffusion" setting") vs
Piezo
> > driver with MIS FS inks, I can see dots in highlights and I get
very
> > tiny tiny microbanding with Epson driver/Woolf workflow....but the
> > Piezo driver is smooth. This is counter-intuitive for
microbanding,
> > but there it is. Please note that I only see the highlight dots
and
> > microbanding when using my CRI 98 Ott-lite and viewing from 1 foot
> > away. I don't know why, but viewed under typical tungsten lighting
of
> > varying intensity, I can't see the dots/banding at all.
> >
> > The piezo driver seems (still some uncertainy)to print a bit
> > contratier than the Epson. In this case for some photos, I wonder
if
> > the Epson driver still might be better, if a textured paper was
used.
> > S. E. photo textured paper seems to "almost" hide the microbanding
> > even when I put the Ott-lite up real close.
> >
> > I am curious if I have the settings wrong for the Woolf workflow.
His
> > screen shot of settings did not match my driver dialogue choices,
so I
> > e-mailed him as to the discrepancies (i.e. "Halftone" setting not
> > availabe, J.W.---->use "error diffusion" instead).
> >
> > So, if I can swing it, I'll be using the Piezo driver with MIS FS
> > inkset. I am going to conduct my usual fade testing of some papers
> > profiled by Cone in this manner, as some on the Piezo list are
aware I
> > already do.
> > Jim H.
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is
at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 16:19:20 -0000
From: buckwiet@...
Subject: Re: Panorama Paper, i.e. long prints
Tim & Martin -
I just joined yesterday for the purpose of learning how to do this
(printing 12"x84" panoramas) since they cost around $300 a piece on
silver paper.
Did you get it to work? Are the same size options, menu selections
available on a 1280? Also, are you printing color or b&w? What paper?
thanks,
andy
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., mwesley250@e... wrote:
> Tim,
>
> When you enter a length value in the Epson driver under the "User
> Defined" paper size it will not accept a number larger than the
> maximum listed. I went through the PiezoBW manual and it looks like
> paper size is under the control of the Epson driver.
>
> However, on the Epson side I noticed that while my 1200 is limited
to
> 44", if I put my Epson 1270 or 785 in "Roll Feeder" or "Banner" mode
> I can then go to the "user defined" paper size and specify a length
> up to 129"!! No way to test this out at the moment. This would make
a
> 13" roll option more interesting for the newer generation of
printers.
>
> So with the 1270 on up we can start printing our 13" by 129"
> panoramas! If there is some paper available. You really would have
to
> roll feed this since trying to hand feed a 129" sheet into a 1270
> sounds a little tricky. Even 44" may be a problem.
>
> I am also assuming that with the other ink set, MIS, Spectratone,
> Lyson, etc. length is also limited by the Epson driver. Someone let
> us know if this is not true.
>
> In any case, the ability to print a 13" by 44" panorama on the
> desktop is a huge leap for producing panoramas! Consider the
> difficulty of printing and processing at this size in the darkroom.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tim Spragens"
> <t.spragens@c...> wrote:
> > I wonder, Martin. I remember in the PiezoBW information that the
> > paper length was no longer limited. If set longer, does the Epson
> > driver refuse it? I assumed it would just truncate the print,
> rather
> > than disallowing a lenght over 44". I've got a roll of Epson
paper,
> but
> > it is too wide for the 1160, so no way to test for sure.
> >
> (snip earlier)
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