Digital BW, The Print

there really isn't an answer to this you know. Just ask 20 people what there
fave film is. Give 20 people a neg and they'll print it 20 different ways.
All the inks look different, they print differently, and there are myriad
papers out there. Some people want easy printing, some want to use a
densitometer and rips. Buy any epson printer and pick an ink software combo.
if you don't like it - work out why and find something that fills the gap.

Julian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "alaskangiant2000" <alaskangiant2000@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 5:54 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] best course of action to print black&white on Epsons
2200


> I've did the research and read the articles and e-mail. The question
> is to the people in the group that have tried the different methods.
> WHICH METHOD IS THE BEST WHEN YOU CONSIDER ALL THE PRO'S & CON'S.
>
>
>
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----- Original Message ----- 

From: "alaskangiant2000" <alaskangiant2000@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:54 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] best course of action to print black&white on Epsons
2200


> I've did the research and read the articles and e-mail. The question
> is to the people in the group that have tried the different methods.
> WHICH METHOD IS THE BEST WHEN YOU CONSIDER ALL THE PRO'S & CON'S.

Alaska,

I agree with Julian. There are several routes to take and it is more a
question of personal taste and other requirements.

You should be able to get good results with an Epson 2200, Epson ink and one
of the software packages such as ImagePrint. You could buy the Piezo or R9
plug-in and print well using one of the 8 ink sets available that work with
the software (4 Piezotone, 2 MIS Full Spectrum and 2 from Sundance). You can
also get great prints using MIS Variable Mix or UltraTone inks with the
Epson driver and Paul Roark's RGB separation curve workflow. The new
Sundance Septone inks with their Pixel Pixasso rip do a great job.

If you give us a better idea of what type of prints you want to make, the
recommendations could be narrowed in a bit but personal preferences are
going to be a major determining factor.

Martin Wesley

> You should be able to get good results with an Epson 2200, 
> Epson ink and one of the software packages such as 
> ImagePrint. You could buy the Piezo or R9 plug-in and print 
> well using one of the 8 ink sets available that work with the 
> software (4 Piezotone, 2 MIS Full Spectrum and 2 from 
> Sundance). You can also get great prints using MIS Variable 
> Mix or UltraTone inks with the Epson driver and Paul Roark's 
> RGB separation curve workflow. The new Sundance Septone inks 
> with their Pixel Pixasso rip do a great job.

I don't think any of these, except Imageprint, are available for the
2200 just yet.  (?)

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Daniel Staver" <daniel@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 3:54 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] best course of action to print black&white on
Epsons 2200


> > You should be able to get good results with an Epson 2200,
> > Epson ink and one of the software packages such as
> > ImagePrint. You could buy the Piezo or R9 plug-in and print
> > well using one of the 8 ink sets available that work with the
> > software (4 Piezotone, 2 MIS Full Spectrum and 2 from
> > Sundance). You can also get great prints using MIS Variable
> > Mix or UltraTone inks with the Epson driver and Paul Roark's
> > RGB separation curve workflow. The new Sundance Septone inks
> > with their Pixel Pixasso rip do a great job.
>
> I don't think any of these, except Imageprint, are available for the
> 2200 just yet.  (?)
>
 Daniel,

There are some other RIP's and software solutions to improve B&W output from
the 2200 with the Epson inks. Also, MIS has the Ultratones for 7-color
printers for sale and supporting software is just now becoming available for
some printers. I don't know when they will get to the 2200 though.
Sundance/R9 has their 7-ink system available for the 7600 and 9600. Not sure
what Inkjetmall/Conetech plans for the 2200. Hopefully we will see some of
these reach the market this summer.

Martin Wesley

> > > You should be able to get good results with an Epson 2200, Epson
ink 
> > > and one of the software packages such as ImagePrint. You could buy

> > > the Piezo or R9 plug-in and print well using one of the 8 ink sets

> > > available that work with the software (4 Piezotone, 2 MIS Full 
> > > Spectrum and 2 from Sundance). You can also get great prints using

> > > MIS Variable Mix or UltraTone inks with the Epson driver and Paul 
> > > Roark's RGB separation curve workflow. The new Sundance Septone
inks
> > > with their Pixel Pixasso rip do a great job.
> > I don't think any of these, except Imageprint, are available for the

> > 2200 just yet.  (?)
> There are some other RIP's and software solutions to improve 
> B&W output from the 2200 with the Epson inks. Also, MIS has 
> the Ultratones for 7-color printers for sale and supporting 
> software is just now becoming available for some printers. I 

There are other RIP's available, but you mentioned the Piezo or R9
plugins with a selection of 8 inksets. None of them exist for the 2200.
And the Ultratone inkset is designed for 6-color printers, not 7. Like
I've mentioned in other posts you can make the Ultratones work in a
2200, but only on matte papers, and there are no existing workflows
designed for this combination, so you have to make your own.

There aren't any virgin empties available either, which means refilling
with different inksets can be problematic. I just noticed that MIS
announced their empties for 7600/9600 printers, and with self resetting
2200 chips already available I can't imagine 2200 empties being that far
away either.

> don't know when they will get to the 2200 though. Sundance/R9 
> has their 7-ink system available for the 7600 and 9600. Not 
> sure what Inkjetmall/Conetech plans for the 2200. Hopefully 
> we will see some of these reach the market this summer.

Agreed, I'm looking forward to hear their announcements.


--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

A question for Daniel...

I have finally been able to try PowerRip and have to
say it has been a very frustrating experience.
Frustrating because the tone of the print was very,
very nice with no, or negligible, metamerism. BUT the
dither pattern was totally unacceptable. I tried the
two options for dithering in the driver and 2880 as
well. In all cases it was a very noticeable pattern.
Do you know if Imageprint has a dither pattern at
least as good as the Epson driver? I am trying to get
a demo of the app but so far my requests to the uk rep
have been fruitless. I have seen from your other posts
that the Ultratones are producing very good results
but I don't feel like going through the refill route,
although there may not be an alternative.

It seems crazy to buy a RIP just for B&W printing,
given the cost, when 90% of the functionality is not
required. I'm sure that if ImagePrint were to make a
driver available with all the other functions ripped
out - and at a reasonable price - they'd sell loads of
them. I also think that it's a poor show from Epson
that they don't include this function in their own
driver given that the printer is capable of it.

So far, without special inks or drivers, the best B&W
I've produced are on PermJet Museum Classic with a
slight tone adjustment. For some reason metamerism
seems less with this paper than with others. But what
I'd like is the neutrality of of the PowerRip with the
dither of the Epson.

Nick

=====


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Hi Nick,

sorry to hear about your frustrating experience with PowerRIP. I know it
has a more coarse dithering pattern, but personally I found that much
less objectionable than the metamerism. I think the prints are good
enough that I still have a large amount of prints I made with PowerRIP
in my portfolio. But, your taste may differ of course. One of the
reasons I recommend it in the first place is that it's the only RIP that
actually has a free demo you can try, so at least you get to decide for
yourself based on your own printouts whether it's something you would
want to use or not.

After the introduction of Epson StylusRIP, that might be the more
attractive option. At $200 it's cheaper, and it's reported to have the
same dithering as the Epson driver. It's supposed to be very difficult
to use, but I think by now you should be able to get help from someone
here on which settings to use.

I have a print from ImagePrint that I aquired in an exchange, and the
dithering pattern seems to be about the same as with the Epson driver.
The tone is nice and even over the whole curve, and of course, no
metamerism.

I agree that it's crazy that you should have to pay money to get neutral
prints in the first place, especially when Epson apparently knows how to
fix this themselves in their StylusRIP. They should have released a new
driver to fix this, but I don't think they ever will...

Other than that the only options left to you are OPM, which requires a
mac, and Gimp-Print which requires a mac or linux. Optionally you can
try QuadToneRIP with Gimp-Print. I haven't been able to make it work
yet, but I'm very interested, because the full control over curves for
each color ink channel seem attractive for profiling my Ultratones. I
also see it has some curves for making neutral prints with the 2200, and
you could further modify those curves to your liking.

For me, I don't think I'm ever going back from the refill route... The
quality is superiour and I've been spoiled with low ink prices now. It
would feel painful to pay $20 for a single cartridge ever again (yes,
norwegian prices are _very_ high). It's not something I would reccommend
if you don't want to do a fair amount of experimentation though... I
have to develop my own curves and in some cases mix my own inks to get
the results I want.

If you wait a while longer you might get more options. Piezography will
probably be available for the 2200 sometime this year, IJC/OPM will
probably be ported to windows at some point, and the PixelPixasso RIP
should be available soon. Also I wouldn't be surprised if MIS developed
some sort of BW inkset for the 2200 when they start to sell virgin
empties for it.

In any case I would reccommend you to join one of the print exchanges
here. Not only is it a good way to aquire some very beautiful prints
from many of the creative people her, but it's also very interesting to
see the results from many of the different printing methods. You could
also request a private exhange with someone if you want to see what a
specific process looks like.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick Scott [mailto:nickscottphoto@...] 
> Sent: 1. juni 2003 10:13
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] best course of action to print 
> black&white on Epsons 2200
> 
> 
> A question for Daniel...
> 
> I have finally been able to try PowerRip and have to
> say it has been a very frustrating experience.
> Frustrating because the tone of the print was very,
> very nice with no, or negligible, metamerism. BUT the
> dither pattern was totally unacceptable. I tried the
> two options for dithering in the driver and 2880 as
> well. In all cases it was a very noticeable pattern.
> Do you know if Imageprint has a dither pattern at
> least as good as the Epson driver? I am trying to get
> a demo of the app but so far my requests to the uk rep
> have been fruitless. I have seen from your other posts
> that the Ultratones are producing very good results
> but I don't feel like going through the refill route,
> although there may not be an alternative.
> 
> It seems crazy to buy a RIP just for B&W printing,
> given the cost, when 90% of the functionality is not
> required. I'm sure that if ImagePrint were to make a
> driver available with all the other functions ripped
> out - and at a reasonable price - they'd sell loads of
> them. I also think that it's a poor show from Epson
> that they don't include this function in their own
> driver given that the printer is capable of it.
> 
> So far, without special inks or drivers, the best B&W
> I've produced are on PermJet Museum Classic with a
> slight tone adjustment. For some reason metamerism
> seems less with this paper than with others. But what
> I'd like is the neutrality of of the PowerRip with the
> dither of the Epson.
> 
> Nick
> 
> =====
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
> Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being 
> updated. The page is at:
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
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same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
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- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> Hi Nick,
> After the introduction of Epson StylusRIP, that might be the more
> attractive option. At $200 it's cheaper, and it's reported to have 
the
> same dithering as the Epson driver. It's supposed to be very 
difficult
> to use, but I think by now you should be able to get help from 
someone
> here on which settings to use.

From what I've read in the various forums the Epson RIP produces a 
warm B&W print as it seems to only use the black and light black 
inks. There are also no toning options as far I can see from the 
various postings. The Ultratones will probably be the way for me when 
MIS bring out the virgin 2100 carts. I'd prefer a system with B&W 
from the colour inks, though, as I do a fair amount of colour as well.

As I said, the metamerism with the PermaJet is remarkably small and 
combined with the smoothness of the Epson dither (at 1440) is proving 
the best for me at the moment. But I know it could be better - and 
when you know that, you are never satisfied.

Nick

> From what I've read in the various forums the Epson RIP produces a 
> warm B&W print as it seems to only use the black and light black 
> inks. There are also no toning options as far I can see from the 

I thought it did some toning, but had a slightly warm tone? I haven't
actually seen a print from this RIP, so I'm not 100% sure. If that's the
case I wouldn't consider it usable. The two blacks alone are far too
warm for my taste. I get good prints with the two blacks only with Eboni
in the black position and a mixture of 30% Eboni and Epson Clear Base in
the light black position though. More dithering in the highlights than
full hextones, but much better than BO, and perfectly neutral.

> various postings. The Ultratones will probably be the way for me when 
> MIS bring out the virgin 2100 carts. I'd prefer a system with B&W 
> from the colour inks, though, as I do a fair amount of colour as well.

I have no problem switching between color and BW inksets with my current
setup. You don't need to run cleaning cartridges or anything. At worst
1/3 page of purge pattern will do.
 
> As I said, the metamerism with the PermaJet is remarkably small and 
> combined with the smoothness of the Epson dither (at 1440) is proving 
> the best for me at the moment. But I know it could be better - and 
> when you know that, you are never satisfied.

Fully agreed! I really want the best my printer can give me, which is
why I spend som much time experimenting with all these different
solutions.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

The Epson RIP uses at least one of the Cyan and one of the Magenta 
inks (it may use both of each) along with the 2 black inks. This can 
be seen in Mr. Peter Nelson's helpful web page on metamerism:

http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/bw22003.htm

and in a less skillfully done image I scanned and enlarged (and 
sharpened to allow definition of the color of the dots):

http://home.kc.rr.com/rardinger/epsonrip.jpg

(this image is a direct scan of a print I made with the 2200/Epson 
RIP/matte black/Epson enhanced matte)

I cannot see much if any yellow ink used in these samples.  It is the 
yellow ink that is thought to be the problem with much of the 
metamerism (so I have read).

The Epson 2200 RIP does not have any ability to alter tone (any 
ability that I can find at least).  I tried altering the tone of the 
image file in PS but got less than great results and more blocking up 
of the shadows (although perhaps with more tweaking it might work).  

Overall the supplied directions are wanting (still not sure how to 
change from the supplied profiles as the program will not use other 
profiles I have, possibly because it knows they were not made for the 
RIP but I am not sure it is that smart).

Epson support for this product, although meaning well, was hampered 
by a lack of a working knowledge.  They did follow-up and call back 
with help for an install conflict problem I had.

The prints (matte black ink, Epson enhanced matte) are a bit warm but 
not much. I like "colder" prints better but can easily live with the 
image tone from the RIP. 

I think a good B&W solution should have come with the printer as they 
marketed it that way.  To mentally ease the cost of the RIP one could 
think of the pricing scheme of the new Epson 3200 scanner, one could 
suggest that the 2200 as marketed is the "Standard Version" and for 
$695 one that will do great color and OK B&W (probabably quite OK for 
many people although perhaps not those on this group list).  Adding 
the RIP makes it the "2200 PRO" version for $895 and it will do much 
better B&W.  WIth that logic, I am pretty happy with my $895 purchase 
and ability to use the same printer/inkset/paper for both color and 
black and white prints.

I would like to hear from more folks that are using the Epson 2200 
RIP for B&W (or even color but perhaps that would need to be on the 
2200 group list) as I bet the RIP can do more than I can get it to do 
with my present knowledge.

Robert


 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> > From what I've read in the various forums the Epson RIP produces 
a 
> > warm B&W print as it seems to only use the black and light black 
> > inks. There are also no toning options as far I can see.....

Does anybody know if the Epson 2200 Rip is available in a "Trial" 
version? I don't see it on the Epson USA site.

Thanks,

Sierra Gold

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "robert_ardinger" 
<rardinger@k...> wrote:
> The Epson RIP uses at least one of the Cyan and one of the Magenta 
> inks (it may use both of each) along with the 2 black inks. This 
can 
> be seen in Mr. Peter Nelson's helpful web page on metamerism:
> 
> http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/bw22003.htm
> 
> and in a less skillfully done image I scanned and enlarged (and 
> sharpened to allow definition of the color of the dots):
> 
> http://home.kc.rr.com/rardinger/epsonrip.jpg
> 
> (this image is a direct scan of a print I made with the 2200/Epson 
> RIP/matte black/Epson enhanced matte)
> 
> I cannot see much if any yellow ink used in these samples.  It is 
the 
> yellow ink that is thought to be the problem with much of the 
> metamerism (so I have read).
> 
> The Epson 2200 RIP does not have any ability to alter tone (any 
> ability that I can find at least).  I tried altering the tone of 
the 
> image file in PS but got less than great results and more blocking 
up 
> of the shadows (although perhaps with more tweaking it might 
work).  
> 
> Overall the supplied directions are wanting (still not sure how to 
> change from the supplied profiles as the program will not use 
other 
> profiles I have, possibly because it knows they were not made for 
the 
> RIP but I am not sure it is that smart).
> 
> Epson support for this product, although meaning well, was 
hampered 
> by a lack of a working knowledge.  They did follow-up and call 
back 
> with help for an install conflict problem I had.
> 
> The prints (matte black ink, Epson enhanced matte) are a bit warm 
but 
> not much. I like "colder" prints better but can easily live with 
the 
> image tone from the RIP. 
> 
> I think a good B&W solution should have come with the printer as 
they 
> marketed it that way.  To mentally ease the cost of the RIP one 
could 
> think of the pricing scheme of the new Epson 3200 scanner, one 
could 
> suggest that the 2200 as marketed is the "Standard Version" and 
for 
> $695 one that will do great color and OK B&W (probabably quite OK 
for 
> many people although perhaps not those on this group list).  
Adding 
> the RIP makes it the "2200 PRO" version for $895 and it will do 
much 
> better B&W.  WIth that logic, I am pretty happy with my $895 
purchase 
> and ability to use the same printer/inkset/paper for both color 
and 
> black and white prints.
> 
> I would like to hear from more folks that are using the Epson 2200 
> RIP for B&W (or even color but perhaps that would need to be on 
the 
> 2200 group list) as I bet the RIP can do more than I can get it to 
do 
> with my present knowledge.
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
>  
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel 
Staver" 
> <daniel@p...> wrote:
> > > From what I've read in the various forums the Epson RIP 
produces 
> a 
> > > warm B&W print as it seems to only use the black and light 
black 
> > > inks. There are also no toning options as far I can see.....

For those of you using reflection densitometers, what are you using?

If you have tried others and liked them better or worse, what where they?

Thanks,

Seth