Digital BW, The Print

I know many of you are interested in the possibility of Fiber-Based Gloss
papers for inkjet with the hopes that we may be able to get a straight out
of the printer "digital silver print" solution.  As I've mention on the list
before Oriental (of Oriental Seagull fame--Ansel Adam's silver print paper
of choice) is currently commercializing such a paper.

This week I was able to meet with Oriental's US marketing person and was
able to get several sample sheets of the experimental beta-test paper.

Antonis Ricos and I are currently testing this paper using and Epson 2200
with photo black ink and Imageprint and Inkjet Control to make profiles.
I'm also intending to develop an Inkjet Control profile to try the new
Ultratone inks in a 1280 as well.

Posts about the ink performance will happen separately, but here are some
general observations about the paper.

First of all, the base is identical to the other Oriental Fiber-Based silver
papers.  It is heavy (probably around 250gm) and relatively rigid.  In short
it feels like a average sheet of fiber-based silver print paper.  The
backing paper is slightly off white, almost identical in color to the back
side of uncoated Hahnemuhle photo rag.  The paper is cotton as determined by
testing the back side with a black light which shows specs of optical
brighteners indicating use of old textile cotton to make the paper (almost
identical in appearance to Photo Rag).

I hesitate to talk about the surface because this is a beta-paper...but the
test sheets that I received have a smooth surface identical to Oriental's
gloss silver print papers with a very light tooth...considerably less than
the Epson Professional Glossy paper and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag.  The surface
is more like a gloss paper than a luster paper.  The test sheet has
considerably less gloss than the Epson Pro Glossy or Ilford Gallerie Smooth
Pearl, which puts the appearance of the paper somewhere between a luster
finish paper and a matte paper with respect to gloss.  I'd say the paper has
a dull sheen.  The coating on the paper is not terribly regular, but I
assume that this is because the paper is a beta and was probably hand
coated.  The coating has optical brighteners, just like fiber-based silver
papers.  I'd say the level of brighteners is nearly identical to Epson
Enhanced Matte, which puts it slightly more brightened than Photo Rag and a
luster finish paper like Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl.

Oriental is hoping to release the paper in late summer, early fall in both
sheets and rolls, but this is not a firm release date.  The release has
apparently been delayed by wanting to offer the paper in rolls as well as
sheets.

As I mentioned we will post further testing results as we complete them and
as further pre-production samples become available.

Robert

Robert,

Thanks for the report on the new Oriental paper.  I'm encouraged by 
your description of the surface characteristics, but the million dollar 
question is will this paper bronze with pigment inks like the current 
crop of RC papers do?  I'm sure this will be addressed in your upcoming 
tests and I'm looking forward to your performance reports.

Carl

On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 03:33  PM, Robert Morrison wrote:

> I know many of you are interested in the possibility of Fiber-Based 
> Gloss
> papers for inkjet with the hopes that we may be able to get a straight 
> out
> of the printer "digital silver print" solution.  As I've mention on 
> the list
> before Oriental (of Oriental Seagull fame--Ansel Adam's silver print 
> paper
> of choice) is currently commercializing such a paper.
>
> This week I was able to meet with Oriental's US marketing person and 
> was
> able to get several sample sheets of the experimental beta-test paper.
>
> Antonis Ricos and I are currently testing this paper using and Epson 
> 2200
> with photo black ink and Imageprint and Inkjet Control to make 
> profiles.
> I'm also intending to develop an Inkjet Control profile to try the new
> Ultratone inks in a 1280 as well.
>
> Posts about the ink performance will happen separately, but here are 
> some
> general observations about the paper.
>
> First of all, the base is identical to the other Oriental Fiber-Based 
> silver
> papers.  It is heavy (probably around 250gm) and relatively rigid.  In 
> short
> it feels like a average sheet of fiber-based silver print paper.  The
> backing paper is slightly off white, almost identical in color to the 
> back
> side of uncoated Hahnemuhle photo rag.  The paper is cotton as 
> determined by
> testing the back side with a black light which shows specs of optical
> brighteners indicating use of old textile cotton to make the paper 
> (almost
> identical in appearance to Photo Rag).
>
> I hesitate to talk about the surface because this is a 
> beta-paper...but the
> test sheets that I received have a smooth surface identical to 
> Oriental's
> gloss silver print papers with a very light tooth...considerably less 
> than
> the Epson Professional Glossy paper and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag.  The 
> surface
> is more like a gloss paper than a luster paper.  The test sheet has
> considerably less gloss than the Epson Pro Glossy or Ilford Gallerie 
> Smooth
> Pearl, which puts the appearance of the paper somewhere between a 
> luster
> finish paper and a matte paper with respect to gloss.  I'd say the 
> paper has
> a dull sheen.  The coating on the paper is not terribly regular, but I
> assume that this is because the paper is a beta and was probably hand
> coated.  The coating has optical brighteners, just like fiber-based 
> silver
> papers.  I'd say the level of brighteners is nearly identical to Epson
> Enhanced Matte, which puts it slightly more brightened than Photo Rag 
> and a
> luster finish paper like Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl.
>
> Oriental is hoping to release the paper in late summer, early fall in 
> both
> sheets and rolls, but this is not a firm release date.  The release has
> apparently been delayed by wanting to offer the paper in rolls as well 
> as
> sheets.
>
> As I mentioned we will post further testing results as we complete 
> them and
> as further pre-production samples become available.
>
> Robert

Yes it will be addressed...let's just say that this paper performs
differently.

Robert

On 6/1/03 1:26 PM, "Carl Schofield" <scho@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> Thanks for the report on the new Oriental paper.  I'm encouraged by
> your description of the surface characteristics, but the million dollar
> question is will this paper bronze with pigment inks like the current
> crop of RC papers do?  I'm sure this will be addressed in your upcoming
> tests and I'm looking forward to your performance reports.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 03:33  PM, Robert Morrison wrote:
> 
>> I know many of you are interested in the possibility of Fiber-Based
>> Gloss
>> papers for inkjet with the hopes that we may be able to get a straight
>> out
>> of the printer "digital silver print" solution.  As I've mention on
>> the list
>> before Oriental (of Oriental Seagull fame--Ansel Adam's silver print
>> paper
>> of choice) is currently commercializing such a paper.
>> 
>> This week I was able to meet with Oriental's US marketing person and
>> was
>> able to get several sample sheets of the experimental beta-test paper.
>> 
>> Antonis Ricos and I are currently testing this paper using and Epson
>> 2200
>> with photo black ink and Imageprint and Inkjet Control to make
>> profiles.
>> I'm also intending to develop an Inkjet Control profile to try the new
>> Ultratone inks in a 1280 as well.
>> 
>> Posts about the ink performance will happen separately, but here are
>> some
>> general observations about the paper.
>> 
>> First of all, the base is identical to the other Oriental Fiber-Based
>> silver
>> papers.  It is heavy (probably around 250gm) and relatively rigid.  In
>> short
>> it feels like a average sheet of fiber-based silver print paper.  The
>> backing paper is slightly off white, almost identical in color to the
>> back
>> side of uncoated Hahnemuhle photo rag.  The paper is cotton as
>> determined by
>> testing the back side with a black light which shows specs of optical
>> brighteners indicating use of old textile cotton to make the paper
>> (almost
>> identical in appearance to Photo Rag).
>> 
>> I hesitate to talk about the surface because this is a
>> beta-paper...but the
>> test sheets that I received have a smooth surface identical to
>> Oriental's
>> gloss silver print papers with a very light tooth...considerably less
>> than
>> the Epson Professional Glossy paper and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag.  The
>> surface
>> is more like a gloss paper than a luster paper.  The test sheet has
>> considerably less gloss than the Epson Pro Glossy or Ilford Gallerie
>> Smooth
>> Pearl, which puts the appearance of the paper somewhere between a
>> luster
>> finish paper and a matte paper with respect to gloss.  I'd say the
>> paper has
>> a dull sheen.  The coating on the paper is not terribly regular, but I
>> assume that this is because the paper is a beta and was probably hand
>> coated.  The coating has optical brighteners, just like fiber-based
>> silver
>> papers.  I'd say the level of brighteners is nearly identical to Epson
>> Enhanced Matte, which puts it slightly more brightened than Photo Rag
>> and a
>> luster finish paper like Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl.
>> 
>> Oriental is hoping to release the paper in late summer, early fall in
>> both
>> sheets and rolls, but this is not a firm release date.  The release has
>> apparently been delayed by wanting to offer the paper in rolls as well
>> as
>> sheets.
>> 
>> As I mentioned we will post further testing results as we complete
>> them and
>> as further pre-production samples become available.
>> 
>> Robert
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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> 
>

.... and here are some brief comments on how I saw the beta Oriental Fiber 
Based paper:

1. I think it wins on being the only one of the "glossy" types to be so thick and 
OPAQUE. Unlike many of the Epson and Ilford papers this one you can't see 
through to the back.

2. It may also win on longevity tests, though that remains to be seen. If indeed 
it has OBAs as Robert found out, it may yellow "down" a bit, but the backing 
and coating may be more archival than other similar papers.

3. The sheen of the surface is not quite a shiny as an air-dried fiber paper, it 
appears duller. In my rub-down tests (rubbing the surface with sterilized 
cotton), I noticed a white "dust" coming off, much like a clay-coated paper. This 
may make the surface delicate. No telling if this is how the final release will 
be, however.  There seems to be an unusual 3-layer coating that produces 3 
distinct  surfaces when rubbed away. 

4. Next to the Ilford Smooth Pearl, this paper produced an even bronzing in 
the denser areas without color shifts (used with UltraChromes and IJC/OPM). 
Ilford, produced a different color bronzing in the mid tones than the shadows 
which I found annoying. Oriental probably has the least bronzing of many 
other "glossy" paper I've seen with UC inks (printed samples courtesy Robert 
Morrison). 

5. Despite the low bronzing and good look-and-feel, when I held up a real 
double weight fiber print, the difference in surface sheen produced by the 
amount of ink on the Oriental prevented it from looking like a darkroom print. It 
does look like one when the light hits it at 45 degrees and the ink doesn't 
shine. Otherwise, it looks funny, just as any pigment inkjet print  on glossy 
would. In that respect, we are not there yet.

6. Using Inkjet Control to profile and OPM to drive the 2200, I made a neutral 
profile (i.e. with some LCyan and LMagenta) that brought the dmax up to a 
respectable 2.14.  With the same software, however,  I brought the Ilford 
Smooth Pearl to around 2.4. It's a trade off between bronzing and dmax it 
seems. For those who want to play, both profiles are in our Files section, 
(though it may be a while before Oriental samples  become readily available).


In conclusion, if I wanted a digital paper that felt a lot like a darkroom 
double-weight fiber paper, I would have no other choice but to go with 
Oriental.  It is still a compromise compared to a silver print, but a light coat of 
Krylon would probably mask the slight bronzing, and logevity would be better 
than other similar papers. 
However, I'll have to wait for the final production sheets to see if the surface is 
smoother and less delicate than this sample. After all, I only had 2 sheets: 1 to 
make a profile and one to print a picture!! So, please take these comments as 
very preliminary and with a large grain of salt.  Many thanks to Robert 
Morrison for generously sharing the very few sheets he managed to get his 
hands on for these tests.


Antonis

Antonis,

Thanks for your observations on the new OFB paper and for posting the  
profiles.  I tried the ISP profile and found the tonal distribution to  
be quite pleasing.  Still the same problem with midtone bronzing that I  
ran into earlier, but this time I was able to minimize the bronzing  
with two good coats of Kamar (Is there a comparable product that  
doesn't have the obnoxious odor?).  I noticed that you had the ink  
limits for lt cyan and lt magenta set quite low in the ISP profile.  In  
my earlier profile attempts with ISP I had the limits up around 10 to  
11 and that may have exacerbated the bronzing somewhat.  Also, the  
Kamar varnish kicked up the dmax about 0.15 units and I'm wondering if  
I should re-linearize the profile after the varnishing.

Carl

On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 02:28  AM, Antonis Ricos wrote:

> .... and here are some brief comments on how I saw the beta Oriental  
> Fiber
> Based paper:
>
> 1. I think it wins on being the only one of the "glossy" types to be  
> so thick and
> OPAQUE. Unlike many of the Epson and Ilford papers this one you can't  
> see
> through to the back.
>
> 2. It may also win on longevity tests, though that remains to be seen.  
> If indeed
> it has OBAs as Robert found out, it may yellow "down" a bit, but the  
> backing
> and coating may be more archival than other similar papers.
>
> 3. The sheen of the surface is not quite a shiny as an air-dried fiber  
> paper, it
> appears duller. In my rub-down tests (rubbing the surface with  
> sterilized
> cotton), I noticed a white "dust" coming off, much like a clay-coated  
> paper. This
> may make the surface delicate. No telling if this is how the final  
> release will
> be, however.  There seems to be an unusual 3-layer coating that  
> produces 3
> distinct  surfaces when rubbed away.
>
> 4. Next to the Ilford Smooth Pearl, this paper produced an even  
> bronzing in
> the denser areas without color shifts (used with UltraChromes and  
> IJC/OPM).
> Ilford, produced a different color bronzing in the mid tones than the  
> shadows
> which I found annoying. Oriental probably has the least bronzing of  
> many
> other "glossy" paper I've seen with UC inks (printed samples courtesy  
> Robert
> Morrison).
>
> 5. Despite the low bronzing and good look-and-feel, when I held up a  
> real
> double weight fiber print, the difference in surface sheen produced by  
> the
> amount of ink on the Oriental prevented it from looking like a  
> darkroom print. It
> does look like one when the light hits it at 45 degrees and the ink  
> doesn't
> shine. Otherwise, it looks funny, just as any pigment inkjet print  on  
> glossy
> would. In that respect, we are not there yet.
>
> 6. Using Inkjet Control to profile and OPM to drive the 2200, I made a  
> neutral
> profile (i.e. with some LCyan and LMagenta) that brought the dmax up  
> to a
> respectable 2.14.  With the same software, however,  I brought the  
> Ilford
> Smooth Pearl to around 2.4. It's a trade off between bronzing and dmax  
> it
> seems. For those who want to play, both profiles are in our Files  
> section,
> (though it may be a while before Oriental samples  become readily  
> available).
>
>
> In conclusion, if I wanted a digital paper that felt a lot like a  
> darkroom
> double-weight fiber paper, I would have no other choice but to go with
> Oriental.  It is still a compromise compared to a silver print, but a  
> light coat of
> Krylon would probably mask the slight bronzing, and logevity would be  
> better
> than other similar papers.
> However, I'll have to wait for the final production sheets to see if  
> the surface is
> smoother and less delicate than this sample. After all, I only had 2  
> sheets: 1 to
> make a profile and one to print a picture!! So, please take these  
> comments as
> very preliminary and with a large grain of salt.  Many thanks to Robert
> Morrison for generously sharing the very few sheets he managed to get  
> his
> hands on for these tests.
>
>
> Antonis
>
>
>
>
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>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls  
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
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>

Still the same problem with midtone bronzing that I  
> ran into earlier, but this time I was able to minimize the bronzing  
> with two good coats of Kamar (Is there a comparable product that  
> doesn't have the obnoxious odor?). 

Carl,

I don't know much about spray coats but I wonder how they may affect  print 
stability down the line. I don't know of any fade tests that include top coats. 
However, they are the only way to address bronzing for now - smelly or 
otherwise.



 I noticed that you had the ink  
> limits for lt cyan and lt magenta set quite low in the ISP profile.  In  
> my earlier profile attempts with ISP I had the limits up around 10 to  
> 11 and that may have exacerbated the bronzing somewhat. 


There could be other tricks too, that I didn't try: Bringing the black up towards 
the mid tones will require less total ink in those regions. Whether dots will start 
appearing or not is up to the fine droplets of the 2200. But if you are willing to 
play, that would be worth experimenting with - short of that second gray ink 
we've all been wishing for.

Also, you can make a "warm" profile by zeroing out the 2 color inks and 
blending with OPM.



 the  
> Kamar varnish kicked up the dmax about 0.15 units and I'm wondering if  
> I should re-linearize the profile after the varnishing.

Yes, I would say so. You may gain a small benefit in shadow separation by 
redistributing your densities based on aims for the new dmax. Did you hit 2.5 
coated?


Antonis

On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 02:14  PM, Antonis Ricos wrote:

>> Kamar varnish kicked up the dmax about 0.15 units and I'm wondering if
>> I should re-linearize the profile after the varnishing.
>
> Yes, I would say so. You may gain a small benefit in shadow separation 
> by
> redistributing your densities based on aims for the new dmax. Did you 
> hit 2.5
> coated?

No, only 2.25, but I don't trust the densitometer I'm currently using 
for accurate readings at these higher densities because it uses an led 
light source.  I'm thinking of getting the new GM Eye-Photo package 
with the pro spectrophotometer, primarily for monitor/color profile 
generation, but do you think it would also to be able to provide 
accurate density data for use with IJC?

Carl

With Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl and Antonis's IJC profile (number ISP_10)
I'm getting 2.25 uncoated and 2.26 with two light coats of Kamvar...if I go
a little heavier I go up to 2.51.  There is very, very little bronzing after
the Kamvar...and the surface is completely even through the hilights...I'd
say this is a winner...pending the release of the Oriental paper.  I did
have to use inkjet control to make a slight change to the light black ink
for my printer...but it was a single adjustment and I was right on the money
up to 2.5 dmax.  IJC is a spectacular product...its just a shame that the
windows users will have to wait...for once...;-)

Robert

On 6/2/03 12:21 PM, "Carl Schofield" <scho@...> wrote:

> 
> On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 02:14  PM, Antonis Ricos wrote:
> 
>>> Kamar varnish kicked up the dmax about 0.15 units and I'm wondering if
>>> I should re-linearize the profile after the varnishing.
>> 
>> Yes, I would say so. You may gain a small benefit in shadow separation
>> by
>> redistributing your densities based on aims for the new dmax. Did you
>> hit 2.5
>> coated?
> 
> No, only 2.25, but I don't trust the densitometer I'm currently using
> for accurate readings at these higher densities because it uses an led
> light source.  I'm thinking of getting the new GM Eye-Photo package
> with the pro spectrophotometer, primarily for monitor/color profile
> generation, but do you think it would also to be able to provide
> accurate density data for use with IJC?
> 
> Carl
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

A little OT but Im just curious about the use of Ilford Gallerie 
Smooth Pearl as I have tried it with MIS FSN inks and even after a 
couple of days after printing I can wipe off about 80% of the ink 
with a cloth or leave finger marks with the slightest touch.

would be interested in comments on the problem Im seeing.

BTW the paper was from a cut roll

regards
Craig

You have to use an RC compatible inkset...which at this point is either the
Ultrachromes (epson 2200,7600,9600,10600) or MIS's relacement inks or
Ultratones, which are also RC compatible.  Both of these inksets work well
with the Ilford.  The key is that if you want to do BW, you will still need
to spray the prints...not because of dusting...there isn't a problem with
that...but rather because of bronzing.  Two light coats of Krylon Kamar
Varnish eliminates about 95% of the bronzing with the Ultrachromes as
printed using Ink Jet Control and my 2200.

Robert

On 6/2/03 7:47 PM, "craig" <craygc@...> wrote:

> A little OT but Im just curious about the use of Ilford Gallerie
> Smooth Pearl as I have tried it with MIS FSN inks and even after a
> couple of days after printing I can wipe off about 80% of the ink
> with a cloth or leave finger marks with the slightest touch.
> 
> what be interested in comments
> 
> regards
> Craig
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
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> 
>

Robert,

I guess I'm pretty close to the densities you are getting with the 
Kamar coated ISP, using Antonis's profile.  I'm also quite pleased with 
the results and delighted to have IJC.  The PC users have StudioPrint 
10 which sounds similar to IJC and also has the advantage of automated 
density acquisition (at least from the Eye-One spectrophotometer) for 
profile construction.  Do you know if Bowhaus has any plans for 
incorporating this feature in IJC?  Here is a link to a review of 
StudioPrint 10:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/message/31408

Carl

On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 04:47  PM, Robert Morrison wrote:

> With Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl and Antonis's IJC profile (number 
> ISP_10)
> I'm getting 2.25 uncoated and 2.26 with two light coats of Kamvar...if 
> I go
> a little heavier I go up to 2.51.  There is very, very little bronzing 
> after
> the Kamvar...and the surface is completely even through the 
> hilights...I'd
> say this is a winner...pending the release of the Oriental paper.  I 
> did
> have to use inkjet control to make a slight change to the light black 
> ink
> for my printer...but it was a single adjustment and I was right on the 
> money
> up to 2.5 dmax.  IJC is a spectacular product...its just a shame that 
> the
> windows users will have to wait...for once...;-)
>
> Robert
>
>
>
> On 6/2/03 12:21 PM, "Carl Schofield" <scho@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 02:14  PM, Antonis Ricos wrote:
>>
>>>> Kamar varnish kicked up the dmax about 0.15 units and I'm wondering 
>>>> if
>>>> I should re-linearize the profile after the varnishing.
>>>
>>> Yes, I would say so. You may gain a small benefit in shadow 
>>> separation
>>> by
>>> redistributing your densities based on aims for the new dmax. Did you
>>> hit 2.5
>>> coated?
>>
>> No, only 2.25, but I don't trust the densitometer I'm currently using
>> for accurate readings at these higher densities because it uses an led
>> light source.  I'm thinking of getting the new GM Eye-Photo package
>> with the pro spectrophotometer, primarily for monitor/color profile
>> generation, but do you think it would also to be able to provide
>> accurate density data for use with IJC?
>>
>> Carl

>... The PC users have StudioPrint 10 which sounds similar to IJC...
> Here is a link to a review of StudioPrint 10:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/message/31408

That review left out the price: StudioPrint is priced at $2300 for
large-format and $1300 for small-Format (supported devices 24" and below).

Ouch.  I think I'll stay with my free Epson driver and PS curves.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

I'm thinking of getting the new GM Eye-Photo package 
> with the pro spectrophotometer, primarily for monitor/color profile 
> generation, but do you think it would also to be able to provide 
> accurate density data for use with IJC?


Carl,

don't know about the Eye-One. I would go to a dealer that has one on display 
and try some high density reads (with known values)  if I were going to buy it. 
As I understand G/M, this is not their high end instrument. If it is anything like 
the Digital Swatchbook, then the answer is no, but I hope the Eye-One is 
better thn that.


Antonis

> > With Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl and Antonis's IJC profile
(number 
> > ISP_10)
> > I'm getting 2.25 uncoated and 2.26 with two light coats of
Kamvar...if 
> > I go
> > a little heavier I go up to 2.51.  There is very, very little
bronzing 
> > after
> > the Kamvar...and the surface is completely even through the 
> > hilights...I'd
> > say this is a winner...pending the release of the Oriental paper

As usual, I'm a little confused - about all this coating stuff.
Do I have it right, in the following ?

The resin-coated (RC) papers like Epson Semi-Gloss, ISP, etc, have
the best DMax, but show bronzing.  So coating with something like
this Kamar Varnish almost eliminates the bronzing.  I've also heard
of using Lyson PrintGuard; how does it compare to the Kamar ?
Soon however, Oriental will come out with a fiber-based paper that
eliminates the need for the varnish.

But Paul Roark's method of coating matte papers like Epson Enhanced
Matte using PUR and a wire-wound rod is a totally different approach ?
The idea is to raise the Dmax and protect the more delicate ink layer
of a matte paper.  But Kamar and PrintGuard aren't really best for
this approach.

Do I have this kinda right ?

Thanks, John

On 6/3/03 12:00 PM, "johngeyles" <jge@...> wrote:

> 
>>> With Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl and Antonis's IJC profile
> (number 
>>> ISP_10)
>>> I'm getting 2.25 uncoated and 2.26 with two light coats of
> Kamvar...if 
>>> I go
>>> a little heavier I go up to 2.51.  There is very, very little
> bronzing 
>>> after
>>> the Kamvar...and the surface is completely even through the
>>> hilights...I'd
>>> say this is a winner...pending the release of the Oriental paper
> 
> As usual, I'm a little confused - about all this coating stuff.
> Do I have it right, in the following ?
> 
> The resin-coated (RC) papers like Epson Semi-Gloss, ISP, etc, have
> the best DMax, but show bronzing.  So coating with something like
> this Kamar Varnish almost eliminates the bronzing.

Correctt

> I've also heard
> of using Lyson PrintGuard; how does it compare to the Kamar ?

Doesn't work on RC...best for protecting the surface, but not enhancing the
dmax of matte papers.

> Soon however, Oriental will come out with a fiber-based paper that
> eliminates the need for the varnish.

Perhaps not...too early to say.  I'm still using the varnish on the Oriental
samples that I have.  It bumps the dmax up even higher (from 2.0 to 2.3),
protects the surface and also evens out the gloss over areas of the paper
where there isn't much ink.  Personally, I think will always be necessary to
seal these prints...both RC and Matte to protect the surface and even the
gloss (in the case of gloss or luster finishes)
> 
> But Paul Roark's method of coating matte papers like Epson Enhanced
> Matte using PUR and a wire-wound rod is a totally different approach ?

Yes

> The idea is to raise the Dmax and protect the more delicate ink layer
> of a matte paper.  But Kamar and PrintGuard aren't really best for
> this approach.
> 
> Do I have this kinda right ?

You got it.  There are several ways to go.  The printing to RC and spraying
with Kamar is the fastest and cheapest result while at this point coating a
matte paper like Eclipse with a PUR gives the best result (best surface and
most likely best longevity)...but that may change when the Oriental paper
becomes available.  For now I'm printing to Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl
using OEM.PK inks in an Epson 2200 driven with Ink Jet Control and then
spraying with Kamar for proof/display prints.  My exhibition quality prints
use the Piezotone inks with an Epson 7000 driven by Ink Jet Control printed
to Eclipse 300 Softwhite, then coated with Hydrocote using a #30 Mayer Rod.

Robert

> As usual, I'm a little confused - about all this coating stuff.
> Do I have it right, in the following ?

Kinda... to which my personal response, at this moment, is... the darkroom
still seems easier.

As much as I like my MIS quads, all this coating stuff, I might as well be
printing Platinum!

tim

with the kind of negs you are producing, you should be contact printing on
platinum! BTW I saw GJs new book today - I'm hooked.

Julian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Atherton" <timatherton@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 9:51 PM
Subject: RE: IJC and Ilford Smooth Pearl was Re: [Digital BW] Re: Oriental
Fiber-Based Inkjet Paper--Initial Comments


> > As usual, I'm a little confused - about all this coating stuff.
> > Do I have it right, in the following ?
>
> Kinda... to which my personal response, at this moment, is... the darkroom
> still seems easier.
>
> As much as I like my MIS quads, all this coating stuff, I might as well be
> printing Platinum!
>
> tim
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> with the kind of negs you are producing, you should be contact printing on
> platinum! BTW I saw GJs new book today - I'm hooked.
>
> Julian

Place? Or the Mount Royal Cemetery in colour one?

tim

Using the Ilford/2200/Kamar/IJC workflow that I described I printed 60 8x10
prints yesterday.  They were dead on...didn't have to reprint one print.  If
I wanted to I could go back and print those same 60 prints today.  They
would match exactly.  Still want to be in the darkroom?

Robert

On 6/3/03 12:51 PM, "Tim Atherton" <timatherton@...> wrote:

>> As usual, I'm a little confused - about all this coating stuff.
>> Do I have it right, in the following ?
> 
> Kinda... to which my personal response, at this moment, is... the darkroom
> still seems easier.
> 
> As much as I like my MIS quads, all this coating stuff, I might as well be
> printing Platinum!
> 
> tim
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

'Place' - you mean there is one after that?

Julian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Atherton" <timatherton@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 12:00 AM
Subject: RE: IJC and Ilford Smooth Pearl was Re: [Digital BW] Re: Oriental
Fiber-Based Inkjet Paper--Initial Comments


>
> > with the kind of negs you are producing, you should be contact printing
on
> > platinum! BTW I saw GJs new book today - I'm hooked.
> >
> > Julian
>
> Place? Or the Mount Royal Cemetery in colour one?
>
> tim
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Robert, 
Thanks for the info on the Kamar varnish. I've just tried it and it 
works for me.

I have an Epson 1160, use MIS-FSN inkset, Piezo software.

So I've tried a few papers with this combination and added Kamar 
varnish. First of all, it doesn't work with matt papers. Now I 
understand why Paul Roark uses another method to coat the matt papers.

I've tried it on Ilford Smooth Pearl, Epson Premium Luster and Epson 
Photo Paper. The Kamar varnish just cured the rub off problem on all 
three papers and kind of diminished the bronzing effect on the Ilford 
and Epson Premium. I'll have to make more prints to see if what 
bronzing that remains is acceptable.

I also notice that Epson P. Luster is warmer than Smooth Pearl. It's 
kind of fun to have different tones with one inkset.

But the clear winner seems to be the Epson Photo paper + Kamar. There 
is almost no bronzing to speak of, and no more rub off. And, if I 
remember correctly, when Jon Cone was doing the south window test, 
the Epson Photo Paper did best of all with the original Piezo inks.

Cheers,
Andre

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> You have to use an RC compatible inkset...which at this point is 
either the
> Ultrachromes (epson 2200,7600,9600,10600) or MIS's relacement inks 
or
> Ultratones, which are also RC compatible.  Both of these inksets 
work well
> with the Ilford.  The key is that if you want to do BW, you will 
still need
> to spray the prints...not because of dusting...there isn't a 
problem with
> that...but rather because of bronzing.  Two light coats of Krylon 
Kamar
> Varnish eliminates about 95% of the bronzing with the Ultrachromes 
as

> printed using Ink Jet Control and my 2200.
> 
> Robert

> Thanks for the info on the Kamar varnish. I've just tried it and it 
> works for me.

Dumb question maybe, but what is your technique for doing the
spraying of the Kamar ?  Hang it vertically, lay it down on a
flat surface ?  How far away hold the spray can ?   Is dust much
of a problem ?

Have you tried it on Epson Semi-Gloss ?

John

P.S.  I just ordered Kamar from www.dickblick.com; relatively
humane $5 shipping on minimal orders.    Too bad we can't
convince inkjetart to carry Kamar and Hydrocote in addition to
Lyson Printgaurd, to have a 1-stop shop.

You should be able to find the Krylon Kamar locally in any art/craft 
store.  I don't know what the best spraying technique is, but I just 
lay my print on a flat surface, spray with overlapping strokes from 
left to right keeping the spray at a 45 degree angle to the print 
surface, wait 5 min, rotate the print 90 degrees, repeat the spraying 
procedure, and leave to dry in a dust free area.

On Thursday, June 5, 2003, at 04:14  PM, johngeyles wrote:

>
>> Thanks for the info on the Kamar varnish. I've just tried it and it
>> works for me.
>
> Dumb question maybe, but what is your technique for doing the
> spraying of the Kamar ?  Hang it vertically, lay it down on a
> flat surface ?  How far away hold the spray can ?   Is dust much
> of a problem ?
>
> Have you tried it on Epson Semi-Gloss ?
>
> John
>
> P.S.  I just ordered Kamar from www.dickblick.com; relatively
> humane $5 shipping on minimal orders.    Too bad we can't
> convince inkjetart to carry Kamar and Hydrocote in addition to
> Lyson Printgaurd, to have a 1-stop shop.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johngeyles" 
<jge@c...> wrote:
>  
> > Thanks for the info on the Kamar varnish. I've just tried it and 
it 
> > works for me.
> 
> Dumb question maybe, but what is your technique for doing the
> spraying of the Kamar ?  Hang it vertically, lay it down on a
> flat surface ?  How far away hold the spray can ?   Is dust much
> of a problem ?
> 

I just followed instructions on the can. Spray some pictures outside, 
got no dust but some insect on the varnish, then move inside into the 
basement. The smell is tolerable.

> Have you tried it on Epson Semi-Gloss ?

Yes, I tried some after my first post on the subject. Prints very 
fine with MIS-FSN, and the Kamar varnish cured the rub off problem. 
But some bronzing is apparent, though less. 

Got the Kamar varnish at some local art supplies store. $5.81 can. 
To be frank, it doesnt totally get rid of the bronzing problem, but 
at least there is no more rub off.

Cheers,
Andre

> John
> 
> P.S.  I just ordered Kamar from www.dickblick.com; relatively
> humane $5 shipping on minimal orders.    Too bad we can't
> convince inkjetart to carry Kamar and Hydrocote in addition to
> Lyson Printgaurd, to have a 1-stop shop.