Digital BW, The Print

I'm intrigued by the ultratones from what I've read.  I have a few 
questions and haven't been able to find answers in the archives 
(maybe I'm just not a good searcher).  Hopefully someone can help me 
out here:

(1) Does use of the ultratones in the 2200 require use of special 
software?  I'm really put off (OK, intimidated) by all the stuff I've 
read regarding various complicated procedures for most of these 
alternative systems (e.g., "you just need to create your own custom 
ink curves to linearize the driver response" -- I have no idea what 
that means and would rather not have to).  When using the ultratones 
in the 2200, do you print with the standard epson software; some 
special MIS software (at an extra cost, presumably); or some 3rd 
party software like this GimpPrint thingy I've read about?

(2) The reason I have a 2200 is to be able to print color and black 
and white on the same printer.  When you pop out the MIS cartridges, 
do you have to run some special or complicated cleaning routine to 
get all the MIS ink out of the printer head before going back to the 
normal epson cartridges?  Or do you just use the epson cleaning 
routine that's available in the epson driver?

(3) I currently have ImagePrint 5.5 and have been the most pleased 
with that for black and white printing in comparison with other 
software I've tested (QuadTone RIP (which I admit I didn't fully 
understand), Epson's RIP for the 2200, black only printing).  Will I 
see a noticeable improvement over ImagePrint by using the MIS inks?  
It seems like the answer must be yes (since I'd be using 7 shades of 
gray ink instead of 2 shades of gray ink plus color ones as with 
ImapgePrint) but I'm interested in anyone's realworld experience with 
the two.

(someone mentioned a comparison in an earlier message, but I can't 
find it now)

Thanks!

Yes, you will need special software to use the Ultratones in the 2200.   
I know that the folks that are developing Inkjet Control/Open Print  
Maker are working with MIS to make this a plug and play option for both  
Windows and the Macintosh...but it may take some time.  Many of us are  
using the OEM 2200 with IJC/OPM on a mac now to get great prints...but  
we realize that we need a lighter gray ink to get all the way to a  
fully toned quad performance level.  As soon as the light gray  
Ultratone ink is released in 2200 carts one or the other of us will  
make profiles for OPM using this option and you will be able to  
download them and use them for free in OPM if you are on a Mac.

  It is yet to be determined how much cleaning it will require to go  
back and forth between a Yellow Channel Ultrachrome 2200 cart and a  
cyan cart, for instance.  The only way to fine out will be to try...but  
I'm certain it won't require more than just cleaning cycles.

As far as Imageprint goes...I have 5.5 too.  If you are satisfied with  
the lack of shadow detail in imageprint for BW, then the only  
disadvantages for Image print are dots in the hilights resulting from  
the dark light gray ink of the OEM inkset and  how narrow the toning  
range is...the Ultratones will allow a much broader range using both a  
sepia and blue/magenta toner and also fix the hilight problems.  You  
don't really need the toners...you can get there with the OEM inks as  
well with the appropriate controls.  I think what Imageprint was after  
was not really providing a toning option...but rather allowing people  
to decide what "neutral" was for the.  For many of us we want to be  
able to make "Seleium Toned" or "Sepia toned" prints without the  
metamerism, crossover and poor shadow detail characteristic of the  
epson driver results...so the Ultratones with IJC/OPM is the idea  
option.

Robert

On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 08:36  AM, chipcarterdc wrote:

> I'm intrigued by the ultratones from what I've read.  I have a few
> questions and haven't been able to find answers in the archives
> (maybe I'm just not a good searcher).  Hopefully someone can help me
> out here:
>
> (1) Does use of the ultratones in the 2200 require use of special
> software?  I'm really put off (OK, intimidated) by all the stuff I've
> read regarding various complicated procedures for most of these
> alternative systems (e.g., "you just need to create your own custom
> ink curves to linearize the driver response" -- I have no idea what
> that means and would rather not have to).  When using the ultratones
> in the 2200, do you print with the standard epson software; some
> special MIS software (at an extra cost, presumably); or some 3rd
> party software like this GimpPrint thingy I've read about?
>
> (2) The reason I have a 2200 is to be able to print color and black
> and white on the same printer.  When you pop out the MIS cartridges,
> do you have to run some special or complicated cleaning routine to
> get all the MIS ink out of the printer head before going back to the
> normal epson cartridges?  Or do you just use the epson cleaning
> routine that's available in the epson driver?
>
> (3) I currently have ImagePrint 5.5 and have been the most pleased
> with that for black and white printing in comparison with other
> software I've tested (QuadTone RIP (which I admit I didn't fully
> understand), Epson's RIP for the 2200, black only printing).  Will I
> see a noticeable improvement over ImagePrint by using the MIS inks?
> It seems like the answer must be yes (since I'd be using 7 shades of
> gray ink instead of 2 shades of gray ink plus color ones as with
> ImapgePrint) but I'm interested in anyone's realworld experience with
> the two.
>
> (someone mentioned a comparison in an earlier message, but I can't
> find it now)
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
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>
>

> Yes, you will need special software to use the Ultratones in the 2200.


No you don't. Paul's curves can be adapted to work very well with the
standard Epson driver and the 2200. I've adapted the warm neutral and
warm curves to work with my 2100 already. There's probably some really
minor things that could be improved about them, but mostly I think the
results I'm getting are really good. Maybe Clayton could give a brief
pre-comment about the quality before his article? He has two prints made
with the curves I made, based on Paul's 1290 curves.

If you're willing to accept dots in the highlights on the same level as
Imageprint you can even print without any additional curves and still
get very decent results. The prints I made for the June, July and the
Jerry Olson Memorial Exchange were made this way.

> It is yet to be determined how much cleaning it will require to go  
> back and forth between a Yellow Channel Ultrachrome 2200 cart and a  
> cyan cart, for instance.  The only way to fine out will be to 
> try...

Changing from Ultratones to Ultrachromes only requires a change of
carts, but changing the other way, from color to BW, requires two or
three cleaning cycles. Mostly to get rid of all the residual yellow from
the lightest black.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Daniel:

You wrote that:

"Paul's curves can be adapted to work very well with the
standard Epson driver and the 2200. I've adapted the warm neutral and
>warm curves to work with my 2100 already."

I assume that Paul is Paul Roark, a frequent contributor.  But what 
are his "curves," where does one get them, and how do you "adapt" 
them to work with the standard epson driver?  Are these curves 
profiles that you load into and then select in the Epson/Photoshop 
printer driver(s) somehow (instead of selecting one of the provided 
epson paper profiles or "printer color management")?

Thansk for all the responses so far!

> "Paul's curves can be adapted to work very well with the 
> standard Epson driver and the 2200. I've adapted the warm neutral and
> >warm curves to work with my 2100 already."
> I assume that Paul is Paul Roark, a frequent contributor.

Correct.

> But what are his "curves," where does one get them, and how do you
"adapt" 
> them to work with the standard epson driver?

It's a file you can load with the curve tool in photoshop before you
print the image. It's will change the colors in the image so the
different grayscale tones are printed with the correct inks. You will
need to convert the image to RGB for this to work.

If you don't want to mess with difficult settings then you probably
don't want to start modifying these types of curves either, but applying
an existing curve to an image is very easy. I'd be happy to supply my
curves to anyone who needs them, and I'm sure others will create new and
improved curves and workflows as well, once the empty cartridges for the
2200 are released.

> Are these curves 
> profiles that you load into and then select in the Epson/Photoshop 
> printer driver(s) somehow (instead of selecting one of the provided 
> epson paper profiles or "printer color management")?

You apply the curve to the image and then print it normally, without
additional profiles. For these curves you use 'Same as source' in the
Photoshop print dialog, and 'No color adjustment' in the Epson driver
settings.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Thanks!  Care to comment (anyone) on the print quality for (untoned) 
grayscale images using the MIS Ultratones v. using ImagePrint?  I 
believe you mentioned in an earlier post that MIS improves upon 
ImagePrints lack of shadow detail in dark tones.  Any other areas 
where it exceeds ImagePrint?


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> > "Paul's curves can be adapted to work very well with the 
> > standard Epson driver and the 2200. I've adapted the warm neutral 
and
> > >warm curves to work with my 2100 already."
> > I assume that Paul is Paul Roark, a frequent contributor.
> 
> Correct.
> 
> > But what are his "curves," where does one get them, and how do you
> "adapt" 
> > them to work with the standard epson driver?
> 
> It's a file you can load with the curve tool in photoshop before you
> print the image. It's will change the colors in the image so the
> different grayscale tones are printed with the correct inks. You 
will
> need to convert the image to RGB for this to work.
> 
> If you don't want to mess with difficult settings then you probably
> don't want to start modifying these types of curves either, but 
applying
> an existing curve to an image is very easy. I'd be happy to supply 
my
> curves to anyone who needs them, and I'm sure others will create 
new and
> improved curves and workflows as well, once the empty cartridges 
for the
> 2200 are released.
> 
> > Are these curves 
> > profiles that you load into and then select in the 
Epson/Photoshop 
> > printer driver(s) somehow (instead of selecting one of the 
provided 
> > epson paper profiles or "printer color management")?
> 
> You apply the curve to the image and then print it normally, without
> additional profiles. For these curves you use 'Same as source' in 
the
> Photoshop print dialog, and 'No color adjustment' in the Epson 
driver

> settings.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

> Thanks!  Care to comment (anyone) on the print quality for (untoned) 
> grayscale images using the MIS Ultratones v. using ImagePrint?  I 
> believe you mentioned in an earlier post that MIS improves upon 
> ImagePrints lack of shadow detail in dark tones.  Any other areas 
> where it exceeds ImagePrint?

You get dotless highlights and better detail in the shadows (providing
you are using the correct workflow). Honestly I think prints from
Imageprint are really good, I'm not certain everyone would find the
difference worthwhile.

You would probably do well to have a look at some prints made with the
workflows you are considering before you make a change. And, since you
already have Imageprint, I think I would wait a little bit and see how
things play out with the empty cartridges, rips, inks and workflows that
are coming for the 2200 in the following months.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

I have seen Daniel's evolving use of the 2100 (2200) printer, and I 
must say he has pioneered the best use of these printers for b/w.  I 
have seen some good prints on 2200s and OEM inks with a number of 
RIPs, but Daniel's method is the best I have seen so far.  There is 
no metamerism because no color inks are used (well other than the 
tonal modification of UT or VM).  He also uses diluted ink for the 
light gray position, so there is no longer an issue with highlight 
dots.  If I has a 2200 printer, his is the method I would choose.  
But I am waiting for UT-FS inks before I go the 2200 way.  I 
understand the 2200 is much faster than the 1280, hence my interest.

Regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> > Thanks!  Care to comment (anyone) on the print quality for 
(untoned) 
> > grayscale images using the MIS Ultratones v. using ImagePrint?  I 
> > believe you mentioned in an earlier post that MIS improves upon 
> > ImagePrints lack of shadow detail in dark tones.  Any other areas 
> > where it exceeds ImagePrint?
> 
> You get dotless highlights and better detail in the shadows 
(providing
> you are using the correct workflow). Honestly I think prints from
> Imageprint are really good, I'm not certain everyone would find the
> difference worthwhile.
> 
> You would probably do well to have a look at some prints made with 
the
> workflows you are considering before you make a change. And, since 
you
> already have Imageprint, I think I would wait a little bit and see 
how
> things play out with the empty cartridges, rips, inks and workflows 
that

> are coming for the 2200 in the following months.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

Thanks for your positive comments! 

I'm afraid you're giving me some undue credit here - The print I sent in
the last exchange is not the best you can get. It appears to have very
little dots, and that's because it contains almost no bright highlights
and mostly midtones and shadows. 

If you used the same ink and printer settings I used for this image to
print a 21 step wedge you would see a mostly dotless grayscale until you
reached 10-7% and from then on you'd get a slight amount of dotting in
the brightest highlights. After I adapted Paul's 1290 curves I got rid
of even those dots, and got truly dotless prints. This is something I
discovered after sending off my July print. I'll make sure my August
print is made with one of these new curves.

As for the diluted ink I think calling it 30% Eboni is somewhat
misleading, since I'm actually referring to the physical amount of ink
in the mixture, not the density. A mix of 30% Eboni means I used one
part Eboni to two parts Epson Clear Base Stock, which gives something
like a 60-70% density. In other words very similar to the original Epson
light black ink, but with a cooler tone.

At one point I did try using the yellow potition UT ink in the light
black position, but I got some weird crossovers and unpredictable
results when I printed the stepwedge. Also, it didn't solve the problem
with dots in the higlights.

Actually the 2100 has very little problems with dots in most parts of
the curve except for the brightest highlights, so possibly a fully
partioned curve is not really needed. I'm considering to make a hybrid
curve using the values from the partitioned curve in the highlights and
more moderate adjstments for the rest. This will make it easier to
adjust the tone of the image exactly the way I want it instead of beeing
stuck with just two curves.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shilesh Jani [mailto:shilesh.jani@...] 
> Sent: 31. juli 2003 04:51
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS Ultratones for the 2200: questions
> 
> 
> I have seen Daniel's evolving use of the 2100 (2200) printer, and I 
> must say he has pioneered the best use of these printers for b/w.  I 
> have seen some good prints on 2200s and OEM inks with a number of 
> RIPs, but Daniel's method is the best I have seen so far.  There is 
> no metamerism because no color inks are used (well other than the 
> tonal modification of UT or VM).  He also uses diluted ink for the 
> light gray position, so there is no longer an issue with highlight 
> dots.  If I has a 2200 printer, his is the method I would choose.  
> But I am waiting for UT-FS inks before I go the 2200 way.  I 
> understand the 2200 is much faster than the 1280, hence my interest.

I just came across this ad at Craigslist

(go here-->http://www.craigslist.org/eby/sys/14253582.html)

 for a 3000 for $175. It might be interesting for Bay Area list members
(the owner does not want to ship)

-matt

On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 07:51  PM, Shilesh Jani wrote:


> There is
> no metamerism because no color inks are used (well other than the
> tonal modification of UT or VM).

These toners are made from color inks, incidentally.  The key is keep 
the amount of toner used relative to the gray inks low.

> But I am waiting for UT-FS inks before I go the 2200 way.  I
> understand the 2200 is much faster than the 1280, hence my interest.

Don't hold your breath for that one.  I can't imagine any reason why 
MIS would come out with a UT-FS set.  You won't be able to use the 
piezo driver with the 2200...so why would you want an FS set?  Simply 
use the UT set and use the appropriate curve (or profile with IJC/OPM) 
to get something that has the characteristics of the FS set.

Robert

>> There is
>> no metamerism because no color inks are used (well other than the
>> tonal modification of UT or VM).

>These toners are made from color inks, incidentally.  The key is keep
>the amount of toner used relative to the gray inks low.

Also, the cool toner uses no yellow pigment, which is where most of the
metamerism seems to come from.  (In the sepia toner there is yellow, and
there is metamerism.  However, the sepia tone hides the problem.  The look
of the sepia tone just changes as one goes from indoor lighting to
daylight.)

>... I can't imagine any reason why
>MIS would come out with a UT-FS set.  ...

With the 2200's 7 inks, dual blacks &/or dual toners (cool and sepia) are
the interesting options.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

I understand the reluctance to have UT-FS inks for the 2200 printer.  
However, I understand that the UT inks are significantly more 
lightfast than the current FS.  So why not make FS inks with the same 
technology base as UT?

Regards.

Shilesh


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> >> There is
> >> no metamerism because no color inks are used (well other than the
> >> tonal modification of UT or VM).
> 
> >These toners are made from color inks, incidentally.  The key is 
keep
> >the amount of toner used relative to the gray inks low.
> 
> Also, the cool toner uses no yellow pigment, which is where most of 
the
> metamerism seems to come from.  (In the sepia toner there is 
yellow, and
> there is metamerism.  However, the sepia tone hides the problem.  
The look
> of the sepia tone just changes as one goes from indoor lighting to
> daylight.)
> 
> >... I can't imagine any reason why
> >MIS would come out with a UT-FS set.  ...
> 
> With the 2200's 7 inks, dual blacks &/or dual toners (cool and 
sepia) are

> the interesting options.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Shilesh,

>I understand the reluctance to have UT-FS inks for the 2200 printer.
>However, I understand that the UT inks are significantly more
>lightfast than the current FS.  So why not make FS inks with the same
>technology base as UT?

I think a UT-based FS would be a welcome upgrade of the FS inkset.  However,
I sense MIS may not be interested in further supporting the Cone driver.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
_____________________________________________


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> >> There is
> >> no metamerism because no color inks are used (well other than the
> >> tonal modification of UT or VM).
>
> >These toners are made from color inks, incidentally.  The key is
keep
> >the amount of toner used relative to the gray inks low.
>
> Also, the cool toner uses no yellow pigment, which is where most of
the
> metamerism seems to come from.  (In the sepia toner there is
yellow, and
> there is metamerism.  However, the sepia tone hides the problem.
The look
> of the sepia tone just changes as one goes from indoor lighting to
> daylight.)
>
> >... I can't imagine any reason why
> >MIS would come out with a UT-FS set.  ...
>
> With the 2200's 7 inks, dual blacks &/or dual toners (cool and
sepia) are
> the interesting options.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com



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