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Spraying Hydrocote Workflow

Spraying Hydrocote Workflow

2003-08-08 by davajonj

I wasn't going to post this because it's a bit long but I've had a request to post 
on the forum so out of courtesy to the person who asked, here it is.

Hi,
Here is what I do.  First of all, let's consider mess.  The Mayer rod requires you 
lay down  a bead which varies according to the size of the paper you're 
coating.  That,  it seems to me is a variable  difficult to be precise and 
consistent with  from print to print.  Next, when you lay down  bead you have  
to be absolutely sure to lay down enough so that you don't run out of material 
toward the end of your print coating.  So, one would normally lay down 
enough and perhaps a little more than enough just to be sure.  This leaves 
this very sticky material on your glass upon which you have placed your print.  
That has to be cleaned up after each print and that means using a lot of water,  
towels, and time, etc.  Then you have to be very careful not to leave even the 
slightest moisture on the glass as that complicates matters.  Between  each 
print you must also clean and dry your rod.  Thoroughly!  If, like me,  you know 
you have paid about $50 for a gallon of Hydrocote you don't want to just throw 
the excess material away so you save it by scraping it into a container: more 
clean-up there too.

For those who would rather try an what I believe to be an easier and more 
consistent method this is my workflow with some caveats:

I use the Satin Hydrocote from 
		
	Hood Finishing Products, Inc
	61 Berry St
	Somerset NJ  08873-3506
	Ph.  732-828-7850
Cost:  $51.94 which includes shipping.

I had my own  compressor to provide the air.  It's a Campbell-Housfeld 5hp 20 
gallon.  I believe you would not need as big a compressor as you only need 
30 pounds of pressure.  I'm no expert on compressors but mine works very 
well .

The biggest problem I had to begin with was the gun.  The one that finally 
worked  was  the Badger Touch-Up gun model 400 with a medium tip.  You 
can find the cheapest one on the net at : http//www.dixieart.com  and the price 
is $74.95.  I was not charged shipping but there was a little delay in shipping 
and they may have waived the shipping charges.

Now the workflow:

I tape two  sides of the print  (top and bottom) to be sprayed to a piece of 
cardboard four or five iches bigger than the print on all sides.  The cardboard 
works fine but one might one to use formica board or something else.  The 
cardboard I've  use bends a little but it hasn't caused me any problems.  
When I first got the Badger,  I read the instruction sheet and adjusted the gun 
to their recommendations.  Works fine.  I take the cardboard with the taped 
prints (or cardboards with taped prints) out into the garage because there is a 
little overspray.  Placing the cardboard with the print taped to it, I spray a first 
coat of material over the print moving from side to side smoothly overlapping 
just as the Badger instruction sheet says to do.  I put a thin first coat and then 
let dry for about five minutes.  If you try to put a full coat onto the print,  the 
material soaks into the print and and causes it to buckle and that occasionally 
causes problems.  I had the same problem with the Mayer rod and the 
problem with the Mayer is you can't just go over it again.  It's got to be the first 
time or nothing with the rod.  But the light coat of spray is not enough to cause 
any buckling or wrinkling.  After it dries, it has now given you a nice 
waterproof coat upon which to put on your second coat of Hydrocote.  I allow 
the second coat another five minutes and then put on the final coat.  Every 
print I've produced so far has been entirely satisfactory.  I'm spraying 13x19 
prints and various sizes smaller.  I have done several at a time which helps 
production.

Caveats:
Use removable scotch tape not the regular tape.
Don't try spraying if your work site is hot, i.e 85-95 degrees.  Comfortable 
temperatures work fine but the material seems to dry a little too quickly in a 
hot garage.
Important!  When you prepare to do your spraying, thoroughly mix your gallon 
of Hydrocote by hand.  There seems to be some settling of some of the 
material and one paint expert told me that failing to mix well could influence 
how the material lays down.  So mix thoroughly.
Important!  Use a water filter close to the Badger.  When I didn't use a water 
filter, I occasionally got little drops of water onto a print and in my opinion 
makes the print unacceptable.  You can see them  by looking carefully.  Once 
I started using the water filter (about $8) I haven't  had a problem. 
Important!  Get some paint filters (they're cheap) and filter your material into a 
clean dust-free container and then pour from that container into the Badger 
container.  
These caveats are important!  Once I followed the workflow above,  my prints 
started to be just what I hoped for:   Prints with a clean beautiful coating which 
substantially increases D-max and improves the quality of the print 
immeasurable in my opinion.  Plus, they are waterproof and tough.  

I need to mention that I am using Epson's Enhance Matte and have no 
experience on any other paper.  

Cleanup is simple.  I just take the badger to the sink and thoroughly rinse out 
the cup.  I leave a few ounces of clean water in the cup and re-hook up to my 
compressor and spray out a couple of ounces of water to make sure the 
needle and other parts are clean.  This whole clean-up takes about two 
minutes.
That's it!

I've spent about an hour or so preparing this and I would be gratified if you 
would let me know what your results are if you try it.  

Joe D.

Re: [Digital BW] Spraying Hydrocote Workflow

2003-08-08 by Robert Morrison

On Thursday, August 7, 2003, at 05:19  PM, davajonj wrote:

> I wasn't going to post this because it's a bit long but I've had a 
> request to post
> on the forum so out of courtesy to the person who asked, here it is.
>
> Hi,
> Here is what I do.  First of all, let's consider mess.  The Mayer rod 
> requires you
> lay down  a bead which varies according to the size of the paper you're
> coating.  That,  it seems to me is a variable  difficult to be precise 
> and
> consistent with  from print to print.

Its extremely easy to precise...use a syringe.  Regardless of how much 
you put down, unlike a spray gun a Mayer Rod or also called a "Metering 
Rod" puts down exactly the same amount onto the paper...every time.

> Next, when you lay down  bead you have
> to be absolutely sure to lay down enough so that you don't run out of 
> material
> toward the end of your print coating.

Easy...just measure with a syringe...I never run out...its impossible 
if you measure.

> So, one would normally lay down
> enough and perhaps a little more than enough just to be sure.  This 
> leaves
> this very sticky material on your glass upon which you have placed 
> your print.

Make a run off trough at the end and run the paper to the edge of the 
paper.  No mess...excess goes in the trough and hardens...no clean up.

> That has to be cleaned up after each print and that means using a lot 
> of water,
> towels, and time, etc.

A quick rinse of the rod with water, one wipe with a lint free cloth 
and you are on to the next print.

> Then you have to be very careful not to leave even the
> slightest moisture on the glass as that complicates matters.

The key is not to get anything on the glass...which is easy if you put 
the edge of the paper all the way to the edge of the glass and run the 
fluid off into a trough (made mine with corrugated plastic board and 
hot glue...took about 10 minutes).

> Between  each
> print you must also clean and dry your rod.  Thoroughly!  If, like me, 
>  you know
> you have paid about $50 for a gallon of Hydrocote you don't want to 
> just throw
> the excess material away so you save it by scraping it into a 
> container: more
> clean-up there too.

If you don't want to through away material...than what the heck are 
using a sprayer for? have you heard about overspray?
>
>
> I tape two  sides of the print  (top and bottom) to be sprayed to a 
> piece of
> cardboard four or five iches bigger than the print on all sides.  The 
> cardboard
> works fine but one might one to use formica board or something else.  
> The
> cardboard I've  use bends a little but it hasn't caused me any 
> problems.
> When I first got the Badger,  I read the instruction sheet and 
> adjusted the gun
> to their recommendations.  Works fine.  I take the cardboard with the 
> taped
> prints (or cardboards with taped prints) out into the garage because 
> there is a
> little overspray.  Placing the cardboard with the print taped to it, I 
> spray a first
> coat of material over the print moving from side to side smoothly 
> overlapping
> just as the Badger instruction sheet says to do.  I put a thin first 
> coat and then
> let dry for about five minutes.  If you try to put a full coat onto 
> the print,  the
> material soaks into the print and and causes it to buckle and that 
> occasionally
> causes problems.

This is asking for trouble.  If you don't put a polyurethane down in a 
single coat you should wait for at least 24 hours before the second 
coat...because of curing.

>  I had the same problem with the Mayer rod and the
> problem with the Mayer is you can't just go over it again.

Then you are not using heavy enough paper.  I've never had a sheet of 
300gm paper buckle with hydrocote and a #30 rod.    If fact 250gm 
Somerset Enhanced also works great, but don't waste your time with 
<200gm sheets like the light weight PhotoRag or EAM/EEM.

> It's got to be the first
> time or nothing with the rod.  But the light coat of spray is not 
> enough to cause
> any buckling or wrinkling.  After it dries, it has now given you a nice
> waterproof coat upon which to put on your second coat of Hydrocote.  I 
> allow
> the second coat another five minutes and then put on the final coat.  
> Every
> print I've produced so far has been entirely satisfactory.  I'm 
> spraying 13x19
> prints and various sizes smaller.  I have done several at a time which 
> helps
> production.

You will never get a full cure with this procedure.

>
> Caveats:
> Use removable scotch tape not the regular tape.
> Don't try spraying if your work site is hot, i.e 85-95 degrees.  
> Comfortable
> temperatures work fine but the material seems to dry a little too 
> quickly in a
> hot garage.
> Important!  When you prepare to do your spraying, thoroughly mix your 
> gallon
> of Hydrocote by hand.  There seems to be some settling of some of the
> material and one paint expert told me that failing to mix well could 
> influence
> how the material lays down.  So mix thoroughly.
> Important!  Use a water filter close to the Badger.  When I didn't use 
> a water
> filter, I occasionally got little drops of water onto a print and in 
> my opinion
> makes the print unacceptable.  You can see them  by looking carefully. 
>  Once
> I started using the water filter (about $8) I haven't  had a problem.
> Important!  Get some paint filters (they're cheap) and filter your 
> material into a
> clean dust-free container and then pour from that container into the 
> Badger
> container.

Wear a respirator and gloves...whether you know it or not you have 
spray going through out your studio (and on your skin and 
lungs)...particularly with the type of compressor you are using.  There 
is much less over spray with a HVLP system.
>

> I need to mention that I am using Epson's Enhance Matte and have no
> experience on any other paper.

That's your problem with buckling...switch to a 300gm paper and there 
is no problem.

Robert

Re: [Digital BW] Spraying Hydrocote Workflow

2003-08-08 by joe davajon

In response to Robert Morrison:

 

Robert,

I�m glad you take such a great interest in this forum.  I�ve read all of
your posts with great interest and have found most of your remarks
interesting and informative.  But, I must amicably disagree with several of
your assertions when you responded to my Hydrocote Spraying.

 

First:  You state that one spraying should use a respirator.  This material
is non-toxic.  But to be sure, I called the manufacturer  who assured me
that a respirator was not necessary when spraying.  You asked me if I have
ever  heard of overspray.  Yes, Robert,  I�ve heard of overspray.  But while
you seem to suggest that there is a lot of waste because of overspray,  I
can assure you that isn�t true.  When I used my HVLP gun I got a ton of
overspray which practically filled my garage.  I abandoned that approach
immediately.  It must be remembered  that I am using a touch-up gun which is
small.  It produces very little overspray but being a cautious person I do
leave one of the garage doors open just to be doubly safe.

 

Second:  Your concern about curing is obviously important.  I can assure you
that my sprayed prints feel as dry and hard as my Mayer Rod applied ones.  I
can�t tell the difference between them. You stated categorically that I
would  ��never get a full cure�� with my method.  May I respectfully ask how
you can be so positive?

 

Finally, I know you�re working on a method to coat larger than 13x19 inch
prints.  If I recall accurately,  that method will entail some significant
expense and require specialized equipment.  Do you have any details to share
with the forum?  On this subject,  I feel very confident that I can use my
Badger Touch-Up gun to spray any size print.  Size doesn�t matter. It�s like
painting a car: you spray each section a bit at a time until you�ve finished
the entire car. Size is irrelevant.

 

Once more, the bottom line for me is that if it works use it!  Mayer rods
simply don�t work for me.  Spraying does.

 

P.S.  I wonder if it�s possible to see some of your photography?  I�d like
to see your work.

 

Regards, 

 
Joe D.

Re: [Digital BW] Spraying Hydrocote Workflow

2003-08-08 by Robert Morrison

On Friday, August 8, 2003, at 12:06  PM, joe davajon wrote:

> In response to Robert Morrison:
>
> Robert,
>
> I’m glad you take such a great interest in this forum.  I’ve read all 
> of
> your posts with great interest and have found most of your remarks
> interesting and informative.  But, I must amicably disagree with 
> several of
> your assertions when you responded to my Hydrocote Spraying.
>
> First:  You state that one spraying should use a respirator.  This 
> material
> is non-toxic.  But to be sure, I called the manufacturer  who assured 
> me
> that a respirator was not necessary when spraying.

My first bachelors degree was in Chemistry and I worked as a polymer 
chemist for 5 years before getting another degree in art.  The 
co-solvent in Hydrocote is N-methylpyrolidone (NMP) which has by some 
testing been shown to be a carcinogen.  It is used in Hydrocote in 
concentrations of 5-10%. It is necessary to solubilize the hydrocote 
polymer and monomers...which are not soluble in straight water.  NMP is 
more volatile than water and will be in much higher concentrations when 
you spray it.  If you read the MSDS you will see all of this.  Wear a 
respirator if you spray anything except water...period.

> You asked me if I have
> ever  heard of overspray.  Yes, Robert,  I’ve heard of overspray.  But 
> while
> you seem to suggest that there is a lot of waste because of overspray, 
>  I
> can assure you that isn’t true.  When I used my HVLP gun I got a ton of
> overspray which practically filled my garage.  I abandoned that 
> approach
> immediately.  It must be remembered  that I am using a touch-up gun 
> which is
> small.  It produces very little overspray but being a cautious person 
> I do
> leave one of the garage doors open just to be doubly safe.

HVLP sprayers were specifically developed for low overspray compared to 
LVHP sprayers...which is what you are using...that's a simple fact.  If 
you were getting more overspray from your HVLP sprayer then you 
apparently weren't using it properly.
>
> Second:  Your concern about curing is obviously important.  I can 
> assure you
> that my sprayed prints feel as dry and hard as my Mayer Rod applied 
> ones.  I
> can’t tell the difference between them. You stated categorically that I
> would  “…never get a full cure…” with my method.  May I respectfully 
> ask how
> you can be so positive?

Because aliphatic polyurethanes take up to a week to cure and need to 
be exposed to air to do that.  The instructions on the Hydrocote can 
specifically say, that while the polymer may feel dry in an hour, you 
should wait 2 hours prior to recoating.  This is the reason.  When 
using water based polyurethanes the conventional wisdom is to wait a 
full day. The benefit of the Mayer Rod is that you only need one coat 
when you are using a #30 rod.  You can then put the print in a drying 
rack and allow it to fully cure.  Doing this in multiple coats without 
adequate drying/curing is asking for trouble, because residual monomer 
can become trapped in the film layer.  This could result in premature 
yellowing and breakdown of the print.
>
> Finally, I know you’re working on a method to coat larger than 13x19 
> inch
> prints.  If I recall accurately,  that method will entail some 
> significant
> expense and require specialized equipment.  Do you have any details to 
> share
> with the forum?  On this subject,  I feel very confident that I can 
> use my
> Badger Touch-Up gun to spray any size print.  Size doesn’t matter. 
> It’s like
> painting a car: you spray each section a bit at a time until you’ve 
> finished
> the entire car. Size is irrelevant.

Good solutions for rod coating larger prints (bigger than 16x20) don't 
exist now, but one company is working on designing a piece of equipment 
to do this.  Sorry I can't say any more than that at this point.
>
> Once more, the bottom line for me is that if it works use it!  Mayer 
> rods
> simply don’t work for me.  Spraying does.

Great.  I'm just trying to share my expertise in coating technology and 
relate what I believe will be the most successful approach to coating 
for the majority of users.  I'm glad to hear that you are spraying in 
your garage, and not your house or studio...that's good.  Aside from 
that I would strongly suggest wearing a respirator for any type of 
spraying...even airbrushing...don't take chances with your lungs.
>
> P.S.  I wonder if it’s possible to see some of your photography?  I’d 
> like
> to see your work.
>
Web site is in progress...hopefully to be released in the next month or 
so...but you won't really be able to see the benefits of coating from 
this.  Sounds like you already have seen the benefits, however.

Happy coating,

Robert

Re: [Digital BW] Spraying Hydrocote Workflow

2003-08-08 by joe davajon

Robert,

Thank you kindly for your last remarks.  I'll certainly not quibble with
your expertise in the field of chemisty, My degree is in English Literature.
I will try to get myself to wear a respirator when I spray if I can talk
myself into it. I'm an older man and the limited spraying I do probably
won't get me before some other problem will.

Your other remarks are interesting too.  I'll give them careful
consideration.

I'll look forward to seeing your website.  After it's up perhaps we can
exchange observations about our photography.

Happy photographing!

Joe D.


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