Digital BW, The Print

Did you notice that Wilhelm is now (July 25, 2003 posting) saying EEM with
B&W UC pigment printing is good for >150 years of display (with or without
UV protection) and 110 years of dark storage?

Recall that he'd previously said there would be yellowing in 30 years with
EAM.

I noticed a change in EEM/EAM about the time Wilhelm made the 30 year
yellowing statement, and I guessed the remark had caused Epson to address
that disastrous statement.  Now the cynic in me wonders whether the paper
formula really changed enough to hold off yellowing for 110 years or ...
something else changed.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul 
Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Did you notice that Wilhelm is now (July 25, 2003 posting) 
>saying EEM with B&W UC pigment printing is good for >150 
>years of display (with or without UV protection) and 110 years of 
>dark storage?
> 
>Recall that he'd previously said there would be yellowing in 30 
>years with EAM.
> 
>I noticed a change in EEM/EAM about the time Wilhelm made 
>the 30 year yellowing statement, and I guessed the remark had 
>caused Epson to address that disastrous statement.  Now the 
>cynic in me wonders whether the paper formula really changed 
>enough to hold off yellowing for 110 years or ...something else 
>changed.

This, of course, is the sort of thing that makes my teeth itch 
when it comes to establishing a "standard" for myself in terms of 
materials for output.

Recently I got a sample of one of Lyson's newest heavy-weight, 
acid-free "fine art" papers: prints are reasonably smooth in 
tonality, but ever-so-slightly warm under incandescent light with 
their QB Neutral inks from my 1160 (my standard arrangement); 
EAM/EEM, in my experience, is practically dead-neutral under 
most any lighting conditions with this ink, one among the paper's 
other positive visual characteristics. And, it's hard to beat the 
price, versus the more "esoteric" stuff.

- Barrett

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Did you notice that Wilhelm is now (July 25, 2003 posting) saying 
EEM with
> B&W UC pigment printing is good for >150 years of display (with or 
without
> UV protection) and 110 years of dark storage?

Could you post links to these Wilhelm statements? The only Wilhelm 
EEM/pigmented ink things I've seen say 'in testing...'

I'm a digiprint newbie whose only really tried EEM and Museo. I'm 
really curious as to the (relative) archivalness of EEM, because it's 
so cheap and so far gives me way sharper, nicer images than Museo.

BTW thanks Paul for all your work with the MIS inksets and PS curves. 
For now I'm doing B&W with black only ala Clayton Jones, but am 
considering getting a dedicated hextone 1280 next time I've got $700 
laying around :-)

Peace,
Sanaka


> 
> Recall that he'd previously said there would be yellowing in 30 
years with
> EAM.
> 
> I noticed a change in EEM/EAM about the time Wilhelm made the 30 
year
> yellowing statement, and I guessed the remark had caused Epson to 
address
> that disastrous statement.  Now the cynic in me wonders whether the 
paper
> formula really changed enough to hold off yellowing for 110 years 
or ...

> something else changed.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

This is the Wilhelm page that has the new 110 year dark storage estimate for
EEM (and others):

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ep9600%20print%20permanence.html

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
_____________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Sanaka [mailto:pompousdwarf@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 4:56 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Enhanced Matte & Wilhelm


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Did you notice that Wilhelm is now (July 25, 2003 posting) saying
EEM with
> B&W UC pigment printing is good for >150 years of display (with or
without
> UV protection) and 110 years of dark storage?

Could you post links to these Wilhelm statements? The only Wilhelm
EEM/pigmented ink things I've seen say 'in testing...'

I'm a digiprint newbie whose only really tried EEM and Museo. I'm
really curious as to the (relative) archivalness of EEM, because it's
so cheap and so far gives me way sharper, nicer images than Museo.

BTW thanks Paul for all your work with the MIS inksets and PS curves.
For now I'm doing B&W with black only ala Clayton Jones, but am
considering getting a dedicated hextone 1280 next time I've got $700
laying around :-)

Peace,
Sanaka


>
> Recall that he'd previously said there would be yellowing in 30
years with
> EAM.
>
> I noticed a change in EEM/EAM about the time Wilhelm made the 30
year
> yellowing statement, and I guessed the remark had caused Epson to
address
> that disastrous statement.  Now the cynic in me wonders whether the
paper
> formula really changed enough to hold off yellowing for 110 years
or ...
> something else changed.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com



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Where do the Ultratone inks lie in all of this with regard to 
permanence, Paul?

Gareth

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> This is the Wilhelm page that has the new 110 year dark storage 
estimate for
> EEM (and others):
> 
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ep9600%20print%20permanence.html
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> _____________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sanaka [mailto:pompousdwarf@y...]
> Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 4:56 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Enhanced Matte & Wilhelm
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Did you notice that Wilhelm is now (July 25, 2003 posting) saying
> EEM with
> > B&W UC pigment printing is good for >150 years of display (with or
> without
> > UV protection) and 110 years of dark storage?
> 
> Could you post links to these Wilhelm statements? The only Wilhelm
> EEM/pigmented ink things I've seen say 'in testing...'
> 
> I'm a digiprint newbie whose only really tried EEM and Museo. I'm
> really curious as to the (relative) archivalness of EEM, because 
it's
> so cheap and so far gives me way sharper, nicer images than Museo.
> 
> BTW thanks Paul for all your work with the MIS inksets and PS 
curves.
> For now I'm doing B&W with black only ala Clayton Jones, but am
> considering getting a dedicated hextone 1280 next time I've got $700
> laying around :-)
> 
> Peace,
> Sanaka
> 
> 
> >
> > Recall that he'd previously said there would be yellowing in 30
> years with
> > EAM.
> >
> > I noticed a change in EEM/EAM about the time Wilhelm made the 30
> year
> > yellowing statement, and I guessed the remark had caused Epson to
> address
> > that disastrous statement.  Now the cynic in me wonders whether 
the
> paper
> > formula really changed enough to hold off yellowing for 110 years
> or ...
> > something else changed.
> >
> > Paul
> > http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Gareth,

>Where do the Ultratone inks lie in all of this with regard to
>permanence, Paul?

My tests indicate that the Epson UC black, including light black, are about
like the similar MIS black.  These (as well as Piezo Museum black) are
extremely lightfast inks.  I also think the color pigments are close.  (MIS
may have tests that indicate that the MIS 7600 colors are a bit better.)
These black inks appear to be more lightfast than the color pigments.
Wilhelm's tests also show this.

The UltraChrome black and white ratings by Wilhelm are, thus, close to what
the Ultra Tones would probably be.  However, since the Epson UC "black and
white" prints appear to have more color pigment in them than the MIS UT
inks, and since the color pigments are less lightfast than the black
pigments, I suspect the MIS UT inkset (& PiezoTone WN & Selenium) would
outperform the Epson UC inkset in B&W mode.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
___________________________________

> This is the Wilhelm page that has the new
>110 year dark storage estimate for EEM (and others):
>
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ep9600%20print%20permanence.html

__________________

>...
> ... Wilhelm is now (July 25, 2003 posting) saying EEM with
> B&W UC pigment printing is good for >150 years of display
> and 110 years of dark storage?
 _____________________

>... Recall that he'd previously said there would be
>yellowing in 30 years with EAM.
>
> I noticed a change in EEM/EAM about the time
>Wilhelm made the 30 year yellowing statement, and I
>guessed the remark had caused Epson to address
> that disastrous statement.

>Now the cynic in me wonders ...

Paul,  With respect to possible changes in the EEM paper,by Epson I noted 
that the blacks of EEM seem to have taken another hit in the past few months, 
they seem to have taken on a more of a shine that reduces density and lowers the 
overall contrast of my prints, compared to those I printed in the spring.  
Have you noticed this too, or am I imagining things?  I suppose that the high 
humidity here in New England this summer could also be the cause, as I don't have 
air conditioning (Dew point 75 degrees last evening!).  Have you (or anyone 
else) noticed any humidity effects in your tests?

Tom Wells
East Hampton, CT
toliwel@...
towells@...
twellsphoto.com

Thanks Paul :-)

I had seen this article before but not read thoroughly. I'm using MIS 
original archival inks (doing BW with black only for now), so if 
anything seems I should get even slightly better results than 
indicated. Unless of course your more cynical intuitions are borne 
out in full... =:-o

Of course there's lots of discussion as to the validity of Wilhelm's 
testing methods in the first place. To me, how well these 
reflect 'real life' conditions is not especially pertinent. That the 
methods applied are applied consistently gives a very good _relative_ 
comparison across products, whatever the real life lifespan turns out 
to be. Even cutting the Wilhelm predictions in half, EEM is looking 
very good indeed for me right now. I'm not selling my work or 
submitting it to museums, however.

BTW, I submitted this reply a couple days ago but it didn't seem to 
make it on to the forum. Hopefully this does...

Peace,
Sanaka


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> This is the Wilhelm page that has the new 110 year dark storage 
estimate for

> EEM (and others):
> 
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ep9600%20print%20permanence.html
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> _____________________________________