Digital BW, The Print

Hi all,

I've been reading this site and other for over 6 months now. I have 
done extensive research in color printing and calibration/ profiling 
on the Canon, HP and Epson printers. 

At the same time I started reading about B&W printing since in my 
opinion I can't get a descent B&W print from color printers - it 
needs to be a quad system. 

I've been told that MIS offers quality for a low price. The B&W 
printing research has made my head spin more than once! I've been 
looking into MIS and Piezo. I'm willing to start with the MIS, with a 
1160 or 1280 and ultratone inks, and have the following questions for 
you:

1 - Is there any difference on using the 1280 over the 1160? Is it 
better to use the 6 bottles over the 4 bottles. I will be using the 
printer for B&W only, so a 4 color printer would be cheaper, but I 
would like the best quality. Will one perform better than the other? 
Less clogging? How long can I go between prints?

2 - Has anyone used both Piezo and MIS? I like the selenuim, but not 
sure it's worth the extra cost. I wonder if Piezo not being variable 
tone that the prints will be more consistent over time. I read here 
one of Roark's curves gives the selenium feeling, do you think it's 
compatible?

3 - On the Piezo forum people use a lot Hahnemuhle and photorag, but 
here mor of the Epson papers. Can MIS print on those papers, is it 
better? Maybe more expenive?

4 - Roark's workflow does not use a RIP. If I buy the 1160 or 1280 
with ultratones, will I get consistent prints? If 5 years from now I 
decide to print the image again (new PS, inks, printer, etc...), can 
I get the same result?

5 - If I need a print larger than 13" wide, do you know of any 
commercial service to ship this to that uses the same MIS-UT inks?

6 - Longevity is important to me - is UT the best option?

Your input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks, Alfred

Alfred,

>...
>I've been told that MIS offers quality for a low price.

> - Is there any difference on using the 1280 over the 1160? ...

I used the 1160 for quite a while, and it has a great reputation.  However,
comparing the 1160 prints to the 1280 Ultra Tone prints, I think the 1280
has a quality advantage.  The light toner gives the highlights a little
smoothness advantage.  Also, the shadow tone ramp is a bit smoother.  As a
practical matter, since I and others use the 1280 more at this point, it'll
be better supported.

I've had no clogging problems with either one of them.

> ... I like the selenuim, ...

As an old silver printer who toned with selenium, that is the specific tone
the UT inks are mixed to replicate with the "neutral/selenium" curves.  The
main difference between the silver print tones and the ink tones is that the
black ink is warm.  As such, we can't get the cold deep black tones that
some selenium-toned silver prints have.  And, of course, different silver
papers and toning procedures produced different tones.  In general, however,
the "selenium" tone -- of my silver prints, PiezoTone Selenium, and UT with
the neutral curve -- is characterized by midtone spectrophotometer readings
where the cyan and yellow channels are equal, the magenta channel reads 0.01
units higher.

>I wonder if Piezo not being variable
>tone that the prints will be more consistent over time.

I don't think so.  If you're talking about fading, both the variable-tone
and monotone approaches have to use color pigments to tone the warm carbon
inks.  Whether it's in separate dots or mixed into the gray ink probably
makes no difference.  In my fade testing the PiezoTone selenium is not more
stable.

In my view, the flexibility of the variable-tone system allows one more
control over the tones among the various paper types.

> On the Piezo forum people use a lot Hahnemuhle and photorag,...

Hahnemuhle PhotoRag has been one of the most popular "rag"/cotton-based
papers, which are recommended for archival storage.  There are other cotton
papers that "flake" less (PremierArt Fine Art Hot Press, also sold as Epson
Scrapbook paper, once called "UltraSmooth" in beta) and papers that are less
expensive (Moab Entrada).  The Ultra Tones will print fine on all these,
with there being specific profiles for the latter two.

One advantage of the open Photoshop curves approach is that you can
fine-tune the curves to fit your precise printer and other variables.

>... If I buy the 1160 or 1280 with ultratones, will I
>get consistent prints?

I think they are as consistent as any other inkset that we have available to
us.  Unfortunately, I've measured differences in all of the ones where I've
collected samples from different sources.  I'm not impressed with the ink
industry's quality control, and this applies to all of them that I have
experience with.  Usually, however, they are close enough that the prints
are fine.  In a darkroom setting, one has inconsistencies also.

> If 5 years from now I decide to print the image again
>(new PS, inks, printer, etc...), can I get the same result?

Who knows?  So far, new Photoshop versions have been able to use the same
curves.  I matched my curves to the average PiezoBW densities, because that
is what I was printing before switching systems, and I wanted my files to be
compatible.  I've noticed that most of the test strips I've measured that
were printed with the common RIPs use a close enough midtone target that the
files should be useable with only minor adjustments on almost any of them.

> If I need a print larger than 13" wide, do you know of any
>commercial service to ship this to that uses the same MIS-UT inks?

I suspect any number of us on this list would be willing to print for a fee.

> Longevity is important to me - is UT the best option?

I consider both the Ultra Tone and PiezoTone inksets to be
state-of-the-art -- and that is very good indeed.  In my initial testing,
they do better than the Epson Archival color inkset, which has been rated by
some at 200+ years of display.  (I have not tested all of the inksets out
there.)

I hope this is helpful.  Obviously I may have some biases, but the UT inkset
is the one I'm using.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

paul, thanks for all the good info.

Assuming that the output of the 1280 is similar to the 1270, the 1280 
clearly has an edge over the 1160:

http://www.inkjetart.com/news/13_comp/8.html

I read your post about the used 7500 (check out my reply) - I wonder 
if that is a good way for a newbie to go? I do not expect to do WF 
very often, once in a while, but I like the idea of the large 
cartridges and the freedom to print wide at home. The other option is 
to buy a 1280, for good small size quality and send out for larger 
prints.

I'll try the UTs. I can talk a lot about it, but nothing better than 
getting my hands dirty and learning the process.

The info on the inks and the industry is not good news, but I hope 
the any differences are barely noticeable. My question about 
monotones and consistency was if a manufacturer produces just a 
monotone, it may get better QA, than the variable-tone system. I see 
that's not true but the curves are what I will need to focus on. I 
have experience with PS, but not with curves. Do you know of any 
internet resource/ tutorial on producing or manipulating curves?

Thanks for the info!




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Alfred,
> 
> >...
> >I've been told that MIS offers quality for a low price.
> 
> > - Is there any difference on using the 1280 over the 1160? ...
> 
> I used the 1160 for quite a while, and it has a great reputation.  
However,
> comparing the 1160 prints to the 1280 Ultra Tone prints, I think 
the 1280
> has a quality advantage.  The light toner gives the highlights a 
little
> smoothness advantage.  Also, the shadow tone ramp is a bit 
smoother.  As a
> practical matter, since I and others use the 1280 more at this 
point, it'll
> be better supported.
> 
> I've had no clogging problems with either one of them.
> 
> > ... I like the selenuim, ...
> 
> As an old silver printer who toned with selenium, that is the 
specific tone
> the UT inks are mixed to replicate with the "neutral/selenium" 
curves.  The
> main difference between the silver print tones and the ink tones is 
that the
> black ink is warm.  As such, we can't get the cold deep black tones 
that
> some selenium-toned silver prints have.  And, of course, different 
silver
> papers and toning procedures produced different tones.  In general, 
however,
> the "selenium" tone -- of my silver prints, PiezoTone Selenium, and 
UT with
> the neutral curve -- is characterized by midtone spectrophotometer 
readings
> where the cyan and yellow channels are equal, the magenta channel 
reads 0.01
> units higher.
> 
> >I wonder if Piezo not being variable
> >tone that the prints will be more consistent over time.
> 
> I don't think so.  If you're talking about fading, both the 
variable-tone
> and monotone approaches have to use color pigments to tone the warm 
carbon
> inks.  Whether it's in separate dots or mixed into the gray ink 
probably
> makes no difference.  In my fade testing the PiezoTone selenium is 
not more
> stable.
> 
> In my view, the flexibility of the variable-tone system allows one 
more
> control over the tones among the various paper types.
> 
> > On the Piezo forum people use a lot Hahnemuhle and photorag,...
> 
> Hahnemuhle PhotoRag has been one of the most popular "rag"/cotton-
based
> papers, which are recommended for archival storage.  There are 
other cotton
> papers that "flake" less (PremierArt Fine Art Hot Press, also sold 
as Epson
> Scrapbook paper, once called "UltraSmooth" in beta) and papers that 
are less
> expensive (Moab Entrada).  The Ultra Tones will print fine on all 
these,
> with there being specific profiles for the latter two.
> 
> One advantage of the open Photoshop curves approach is that you can
> fine-tune the curves to fit your precise printer and other 
variables.
> 
> >... If I buy the 1160 or 1280 with ultratones, will I
> >get consistent prints?
> 
> I think they are as consistent as any other inkset that we have 
available to
> us.  Unfortunately, I've measured differences in all of the ones 
where I've
> collected samples from different sources.  I'm not impressed with 
the ink
> industry's quality control, and this applies to all of them that I 
have
> experience with.  Usually, however, they are close enough that the 
prints
> are fine.  In a darkroom setting, one has inconsistencies also.
> 
> > If 5 years from now I decide to print the image again
> >(new PS, inks, printer, etc...), can I get the same result?
> 
> Who knows?  So far, new Photoshop versions have been able to use 
the same
> curves.  I matched my curves to the average PiezoBW densities, 
because that
> is what I was printing before switching systems, and I wanted my 
files to be
> compatible.  I've noticed that most of the test strips I've 
measured that
> were printed with the common RIPs use a close enough midtone target 
that the
> files should be useable with only minor adjustments on almost any 
of them.
> 
> > If I need a print larger than 13" wide, do you know of any
> >commercial service to ship this to that uses the same MIS-UT inks?
> 
> I suspect any number of us on this list would be willing to print 
for a fee.
> 
> > Longevity is important to me - is UT the best option?
> 
> I consider both the Ultra Tone and PiezoTone inksets to be
> state-of-the-art -- and that is very good indeed.  In my initial 
testing,
> they do better than the Epson Archival color inkset, which has been 
rated by
> some at 200+ years of display.  (I have not tested all of the 
inksets out
> there.)
> 
> I hope this is helpful.  Obviously I may have some biases, but the 
UT inkset

> is the one I'm using.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

>... used 7500 ... I wonder
>if that is a good way for a newbie to go?...

It may be a bit of overkill for a newbie.  It's a lot easier to use smaller
printers if the output is sufficient for you.

>... the curves are what I will need to focus on. ...
> Do you know of any internet resource/ tutorial on
>producing or manipulating curves?

The Files section of this forum has some information.

I just read a tutorial that Dirk Hobman has put together.  It combines the
information out there in about the best and most readable form I've seen.  I
hope he's able to post it soon.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
____________________________________



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Alfred,
>
> >...
> >I've been told that MIS offers quality for a low price.
>
> > - Is there any difference on using the 1280 over the 1160? ...
>
> I used the 1160 for quite a while, and it has a great reputation.
However,
> comparing the 1160 prints to the 1280 Ultra Tone prints, I think
the 1280
> has a quality advantage.  The light toner gives the highlights a
little
> smoothness advantage.  Also, the shadow tone ramp is a bit
smoother.  As a
> practical matter, since I and others use the 1280 more at this
point, it'll
> be better supported.
>
> I've had no clogging problems with either one of them.
>
> > ... I like the selenuim, ...
>
> As an old silver printer who toned with selenium, that is the
specific tone
> the UT inks are mixed to replicate with the "neutral/selenium"
curves.  The
> main difference between the silver print tones and the ink tones is
that the
> black ink is warm.  As such, we can't get the cold deep black tones
that
> some selenium-toned silver prints have.  And, of course, different
silver
> papers and toning procedures produced different tones.  In general,
however,
> the "selenium" tone -- of my silver prints, PiezoTone Selenium, and
UT with
> the neutral curve -- is characterized by midtone spectrophotometer
readings
> where the cyan and yellow channels are equal, the magenta channel
reads 0.01
> units higher.
>
> >I wonder if Piezo not being variable
> >tone that the prints will be more consistent over time.
>
> I don't think so.  If you're talking about fading, both the
variable-tone
> and monotone approaches have to use color pigments to tone the warm
carbon
> inks.  Whether it's in separate dots or mixed into the gray ink
probably
> makes no difference.  In my fade testing the PiezoTone selenium is
not more
> stable.
>
> In my view, the flexibility of the variable-tone system allows one
more
> control over the tones among the various paper types.
>
> > On the Piezo forum people use a lot Hahnemuhle and photorag,...
>
> Hahnemuhle PhotoRag has been one of the most popular "rag"/cotton-
based
> papers, which are recommended for archival storage.  There are
other cotton
> papers that "flake" less (PremierArt Fine Art Hot Press, also sold
as Epson
> Scrapbook paper, once called "UltraSmooth" in beta) and papers that
are less
> expensive (Moab Entrada).  The Ultra Tones will print fine on all
these,
> with there being specific profiles for the latter two.
>
> One advantage of the open Photoshop curves approach is that you can
> fine-tune the curves to fit your precise printer and other
variables.
>
> >... If I buy the 1160 or 1280 with ultratones, will I
> >get consistent prints?
>
> I think they are as consistent as any other inkset that we have
available to
> us.  Unfortunately, I've measured differences in all of the ones
where I've
> collected samples from different sources.  I'm not impressed with
the ink
> industry's quality control, and this applies to all of them that I
have
> experience with.  Usually, however, they are close enough that the
prints
> are fine.  In a darkroom setting, one has inconsistencies also.
>
> > If 5 years from now I decide to print the image again
> >(new PS, inks, printer, etc...), can I get the same result?
>
> Who knows?  So far, new Photoshop versions have been able to use
the same
> curves.  I matched my curves to the average PiezoBW densities,
because that
> is what I was printing before switching systems, and I wanted my
files to be
> compatible.  I've noticed that most of the test strips I've
measured that
> were printed with the common RIPs use a close enough midtone target
that the
> files should be useable with only minor adjustments on almost any
of them.
>
> > If I need a print larger than 13" wide, do you know of any
> >commercial service to ship this to that uses the same MIS-UT inks?
>
> I suspect any number of us on this list would be willing to print
for a fee.
>
> > Longevity is important to me - is UT the best option?
>
> I consider both the Ultra Tone and PiezoTone inksets to be
> state-of-the-art -- and that is very good indeed.  In my initial
testing,
> they do better than the Epson Archival color inkset, which has been
rated by
> some at 200+ years of display.  (I have not tested all of the
inksets out
> there.)
>
> I hope this is helpful.  Obviously I may have some biases, but the
UT inkset
> is the one I'm using.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com



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