Digital BW, The Print

> From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
> Subject: Re: clyde butcher carbon

> 
> The only issue I can see is the possible perception that the digital prints
> are "cheap" versions of photographs.  I've certainly found that perception
> come up regularly.  Those who make just inkjet prints want to think of
> them as just another equivalent process -- i.e. you should charge the
> same for the same image regardless of the process.  Those who want to
> do both wet darkroom and inkjet prints may want to position them
> differently to widen their market coverage.  I think both arguments have
> merit but they are hard to reconcile.


Roy,
In my gallery I sell color prints, both Cibas and 'R-prints' at least that
is what they ( the lab told me they were) and Ultrachrome color prints. I
also sell conventional silver prints and digital bw prints from the 2200. I
don't differentiate between mediums in my sales literature or placement in
the gallery. I just put them up. It seems that by the time my clients talk
about price, shipping, framing (if not already) they have made up their mind
in an emotional response to subject and quality of the print independent of
what I could tell them.

Pretty much people are blown away by the digital prints and I am starting to
sell as many or more digi prints than conventional prints. By the time the
sale is made I add the info about being a digital print and then offer them
a lifetime (mine or theirs) warranty for free replacement if they are not
satisfied with the longevity of the print.
Just my two cents.

In other news I now have OSX on a laptop and would love to try out the RIP.
I have Photoshop 5.5, the Epson Driver for the 2200 and the Ultrachrome
Inkset. I don't wish to change inksets at this time as my color is coming
out so well that I am just holding my breath not wanting anything to change.
And I have been able to print my own BW.
Will your RIP work with my configuration?

My black and whites are pretty good. I wish I had a little more d-max. And I
am learning to play with the tonalities in curves but wishing for some
better low to midtones.

I feel pretty confident in digital and know my around Photoshop but there is
still some info being discussed on this forum that makes me feel like a
first grader.
Thanks to everyone,
Jerry


-- 
Jerry Hadam


jerry@...

http://www.jerryhadamphoto.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hadam <jerry@p...> 
wrote:
> > From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...>
> > Subject: Re: clyde butcher carbon
> 
> > 
> > The only issue I can see is the possible perception that the digital prints
> > are "cheap" versions of photographs.  I've certainly found that perception
> > come up regularly.  Those who make just inkjet prints want to think of
> > them as just another equivalent process -- i.e. you should charge the
> > same for the same image regardless of the process.  Those who want to
> > do both wet darkroom and inkjet prints may want to position them
> > differently to widen their market coverage.  I think both arguments have
> > merit but they are hard to reconcile.
> 
> 
> Roy,
> In my gallery I sell color prints, both Cibas and 'R-prints' at least that
> is what they ( the lab told me they were) and Ultrachrome color prints. I
> also sell conventional silver prints and digital bw prints from the 2200. I
> don't differentiate between mediums in my sales literature or placement in
> the gallery. I just put them up. It seems that by the time my clients talk
> about price, shipping, framing (if not already) they have made up their mind
> in an emotional response to subject and quality of the print independent of
> what I could tell them.

That's my feeling on the matter, too.  A print is a print as long as you are
using high end materials, and backing them up with a warranty should
help alleviate any buyer hesitation.

> 
> Pretty much people are blown away by the digital prints and I am starting to
> sell as many or more digi prints than conventional prints. By the time the
> sale is made I add the info about being a digital print and then offer them
> a lifetime (mine or theirs) warranty for free replacement if they are not
> satisfied with the longevity of the print.
> Just my two cents.
> 
> In other news I now have OSX on a laptop and would love to try out the RIP.
> I have Photoshop 5.5, the Epson Driver for the 2200 and the Ultrachrome
> Inkset. I don't wish to change inksets at this time as my color is coming
> out so well that I am just holding my breath not wanting anything to change.
> And I have been able to print my own BW.
> Will your RIP work with my configuration?

Sure.  As long as you have OS X 10.2 Jaguar.  I haven't tried Panther yet but
I expect it to work -- if not I'll be figuring why not :)

> 
> My black and whites are pretty good. I wish I had a little more d-max.

It's pretty hard to match dMax of a silver print.

   And I
> am learning to play with the tonalities in curves but wishing for some
> better low to midtones.
> 
> I feel pretty confident in digital and know my around Photoshop but there is
> still some info being discussed on this forum that makes me feel like a
> first grader.
> Thanks to everyone,
> Jerry
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jerry Hadam
> 
> 
> jerry@p...
> 
> http://www.jerryhadamphoto.com

Roy
www.harrington.com

> 
> Sure.  As long as you have OS X 10.2 Jaguar.  I haven't tried 
Panther yet but
> I expect it to work -- if not I'll be figuring why not :)
> 


Hi Roy-

I'll be very interested to hear if this is true for you...I don't 
have mac, but have been reading an incessantly whiney thread in the 
IP forum and Colorbyte has answered it with a complaint that Panther 
is so radically different from Jaguar, they need to do massive 
reworking of the drivers...

Wonder if you will confirm or expose the concept...

cheers,

Tom O'Connell

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom OConnell" <tomoc@y...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > Sure.  As long as you have OS X 10.2 Jaguar.  I haven't tried 
> Panther yet but
> > I expect it to work -- if not I'll be figuring why not :)
> > 
> 
> 
> Hi Roy-
> 
> I'll be very interested to hear if this is true for you...I don't 
> have mac, but have been reading an incessantly whiney thread in the 
> IP forum and Colorbyte has answered it with a complaint that Panther 
> is so radically different from Jaguar, they need to do massive 
> reworking of the drivers...
> 
> Wonder if you will confirm or expose the concept...
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Tom O'Connell

Hi Tom,

I don't have Panther running on my machine yet, but I have done some
sleuthing to find out some of the printing issues with Panther.
The basic printing system is very much the same in Panther and it was
in Jaguar.  Briefly its based on a thing called CUPS (Common Unix Printing
System) which automatically connects whatever programs are needed to
handle all image formats, networking, device drivers etc.

As far as QuadToneRIP is concerned what I've found is that the calibration
mode that worked in Jaguar does not work correctly in Panther.  This is
a somewhat unorthodox CMYK trick I used to print each ink separately
on one page.  The regular usage of printing grayscale appears to work
just fine using exactly the same curves/profiles.

Why ImagePrint doesn't work on Panther I don't know.  I can't see why it
should be hard to upgrade, but again I don't know.  

Roy

Hi Tom,

Not sure if you are referring only to a RIP working in Panther or more general.

Anyway all my old drivers from Jag work in Panther, and they are pretty old since I am 
not really current in printing.  They are Epson 1200 Ptr, old Brother MFC, Epson 1680 
scanner, and a friend with a 9600.  I was pleasantly surprised by everything working.  
All the usb hubs, etc. too.

Bill

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom OConnell" 
<tomoc@y...> wrote:

> > 
> > Sure.  As long as you have OS X 10.2 Jaguar.  I haven't tried 
> Panther yet but
> > I expect it to work -- if not I'll be figuring why not :)
> > 
> 
> 
> Hi Roy-
> 
> I'll be very interested to hear if this is true for you...I don't 
> have mac, but have been reading an incessantly whiney thread in the 
> IP forum and Colorbyte has answered it with a complaint that Panther 
> is so radically different from Jaguar, they need to do massive 
> reworking of the drivers...
> 
> Wonder if you will confirm or expose the concept...
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Tom O'Connell

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom OConnell" <tomoc@y...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > Sure.  As long as you have OS X 10.2 Jaguar.  I haven't tried 
> Panther yet but
> > I expect it to work -- if not I'll be figuring why not :)
> > 
> 
> 
> Hi Roy-
> 
> I'll be very interested to hear if this is true for you...I don't 
> have mac, but have been reading an incessantly whiney thread in the 
> IP forum and Colorbyte has answered it with a complaint that Panther 
> is so radically different from Jaguar, they need to do massive 
> reworking of the drivers...
> 
> Wonder if you will confirm or expose the concept...
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Tom O'Connell

Hi Tom,

I don't have Panther yet but I have done some sleuthing to see what
printing issues might arise.  For the most part the printing system in
Panther is very similar to Jaguar, but obviously not identical.

For QuadToneRIP, it seems that my special calibration mode using a
fairly unorthodox CMYK file doesn't work correctly, but the ordinary
print mode seems to work just the same as always.

I don't know how ImagePrint gets to the printer, so why it doesn't
work on Panther is unknown to me.  

Roy

There's a Panther upgrande on Colorbyte's web site.
 
TB

Roy Harrington <roy@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom OConnell" <tomoc@y...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > Sure.  As long as you have OS X 10.2 Jaguar.  I haven't tried 
> Panther yet but
> > I expect it to work -- if not I'll be figuring why not :)
> > 
> 
> 
> Hi Roy-
> 
> I'll be very interested to hear if this is true for you...I don't 
> have mac, but have been reading an incessantly whiney thread in the 
> IP forum and Colorbyte has answered it with a complaint that Panther 
> is so radically different from Jaguar, they need to do massive 
> reworking of the drivers...
> 
> Wonder if you will confirm or expose the concept...
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Tom O'Connell

Hi Tom,

I don't have Panther running on my machine yet, but I have done some
sleuthing to find out some of the printing issues with Panther.
The basic printing system is very much the same in Panther and it was
in Jaguar.  Briefly its based on a thing called CUPS (Common Unix Printing
System) which automatically connects whatever programs are needed to
handle all image formats, networking, device drivers etc.

As far as QuadToneRIP is concerned what I've found is that the calibration
mode that worked in Jaguar does not work correctly in Panther.  This is
a somewhat unorthodox CMYK trick I used to print each ink separately
on one page.  The regular usage of printing grayscale appears to work
just fine using exactly the same curves/profiles.

Why ImagePrint doesn't work on Panther I don't know.  I can't see why it
should be hard to upgrade, but again I don't know.  

Roy



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,
         Quick question - in the picture of the 1280 CIS on the MIS 
website, it looks like the little ink cartridge clip things that hold the 
cartridges down on the 1280 aren't utilized.  Then I realized that the 
pictured unit is one of the earlier 1280's - I just got a silver 
one.  Let's just say that, while loading the UT carts for the first 
time...I managed to snap off one of those clips.

         Are the clips needed for the CIS?  As the printer seems to be 
printing fine now, and I do intend to get a CIS at some point, I was 
figuring that I would just leave it as is.  If those clips are needed, then 
I'll send it in to get fixed...

allan

At 8:20 pm -0800 11/10/03, Tom Baker wrote:

>There's a Panther upgrade on Colorbyte's web site.

I had almost decided to buy IP when this issue came up.

As I read the ColorByte web site, the only way to get the update (if 
your copy of Lite is more than 30 days old) is to have a current 
"Maintenance Agreement," which appears to cost $495 per year. (Unless 
you purchased the "Maintenance Lite" agreement for $150, in which 
case you are protected for 90 days from the original purchase date.)

Have I read this correctly? Can this actually mean that, if you 
purchased the IP Lite version for a 2200 at $495 (raster only) 31 
days ago and Panther causes IP to break then the only way you can get 
an upgrade to a version that works is to purchase a year's worth of 
maintenance for yet another $495?

If that is really the case then it looks like the only way you can 
safely own ImagePrint is to pay $990 the first year and $495 each 
succeeding year, whether upgrades are truly necessary or not 
(because, if one _is_ needed and you don't have a maintenance 
agreement then you have a major problem). And these are just the 
minimal prices for the smallest printers.

Can this possibly be a genuinely correct analysis of their pricing?

If it is then it's an incredibly venal and predatory way for them to 
treat their customers. The way I analyze the costs this is _way_ over 
anything from Adobe and Micro$oft.

(There is a note about buying upgrades outside the maintenance 
program, but it gives no indication of cost and reminds me of 
restaurants without prices on their menus.)

Does anyone have any experience with ColorByte's upgrade policies? 
Can you comment on the cost? Does it _really_ cost 100% of the 
initial purchase price to secure a mid-year update? Do yearly updates 
without a maintenance agreement cost even more than $100% of the 
initial purchase price?

Ouch. There is __no__ way I can pitch something like this and still 
hew to my fiduciary responsibilities.

Please tell me I am wrong and that there is a way to get yearly, and 
as-needed, upgrades for 20% or less of initial cost per annum.

(Don't I remember a time when bug fixes to a point version were not 
only freely downloadable but encouraged?)


-=-Dennis

Dennis,

This very topic has been discussed ad-nuzeum on the ImagePrint forum. Apparently, the changes to the underpinnings of CUPS and Print Center, and printing in general, under Panther generated a need for quite a few changes to IP's code. When ColorByte released IP 5.6 it was never stated to run under Panther; obviously, John Q. public had not heard of Panther at the time. I guess they (CB) feel that the patch for IP will only be provided to those have a maintenance agreement. Many current IP Mac users feel that this should be provided free of charge as a bug fix. As I said, the topic was heatedly debated...

FWIW, ColorByte has two pricing structures for its maintenance: $495 covers you for 1 year for the "pro" versions of IP (e.g., Epson 7600); $150 covers you for 90 days for the Lite version (i.e., Epson 2200). It's my understanding that if you enter into a Lite agreement for $150 today you will get the Panther fix and IP 6.0 when it's released in January.

Alan Huntley

> 
> From: "Dennis W. Manasco" <dmanasco@...>
> Date: 2003/11/11 Tue AM 05:45:18 EST
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: digital prints vs. wet prints
> 
> At 8:20 pm -0800 11/10/03, Tom Baker wrote:
> 
> >There's a Panther upgrade on Colorbyte's web site.
> 
> I had almost decided to buy IP when this issue came up.
> 
> As I read the ColorByte web site, the only way to get the update (if 
> your copy of Lite is more than 30 days old) is to have a current 
> "Maintenance Agreement," which appears to cost $495 per year. (Unless 
> you purchased the "Maintenance Lite" agreement for $150, in which 
> case you are protected for 90 days from the original purchase date.)
> 
> Have I read this correctly? Can this actually mean that, if you 
> purchased the IP Lite version for a 2200 at $495 (raster only) 31 
> days ago and Panther causes IP to break then the only way you can get 
> an upgrade to a version that works is to purchase a year's worth of 
> maintenance for yet another $495?
> 
> If that is really the case then it looks like the only way you can 
> safely own ImagePrint is to pay $990 the first year and $495 each 
> succeeding year, whether upgrades are truly necessary or not 
> (because, if one _is_ needed and you don't have a maintenance 
> agreement then you have a major problem). And these are just the 
> minimal prices for the smallest printers.
> 
> Can this possibly be a genuinely correct analysis of their pricing?
> 
> If it is then it's an incredibly venal and predatory way for them to 
> treat their customers. The way I analyze the costs this is _way_ over 
> anything from Adobe and Micro$oft.
> 
> (There is a note about buying upgrades outside the maintenance 
> program, but it gives no indication of cost and reminds me of 
> restaurants without prices on their menus.)
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with ColorByte's upgrade policies? 
> Can you comment on the cost? Does it _really_ cost 100% of the 
> initial purchase price to secure a mid-year update? Do yearly updates 
> without a maintenance agreement cost even more than $100% of the 
> initial purchase price?
> 
> Ouch. There is __no__ way I can pitch something like this and still 
> hew to my fiduciary responsibilities.
> 
> Please tell me I am wrong and that there is a way to get yearly, and 
> as-needed, upgrades for 20% or less of initial cost per annum.
> 
> (Don't I remember a time when bug fixes to a point version were not 
> only freely downloadable but encouraged?)
> 
> 
> -=-Dennis
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>

> From: Dennis W. Manasco [mailto:dmanasco@...]
>
> As I read the ColorByte web site, the only way to get the update (if
> your copy of Lite is more than 30 days old) is to have a current
> "Maintenance Agreement," which appears to cost $495 per year. (Unless
> you purchased the "Maintenance Lite" agreement for $150, in which
> case you are protected for 90 days from the original purchase date.)
>
> Have I read this correctly? Can this actually mean that, if you
> purchased the IP Lite version for a 2200 at $495 (raster only) 31
> days ago and Panther causes IP to break then the only way you can get
> an upgrade to a version that works is to purchase a year's worth of
> maintenance for yet another $495?

I can't believe that people pay more for a glorified printer driver than
they do for Photoshop itself.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...