Digital BW, The Print

Bernie,

IMO, you'll be seriously disappointed if your approach to digital B&W printing is to try to match silver prints. B&W inkjet prints--be they quadtone, carbon, etc.--are and should be treated as an aesthetic all their own.

That said...I've used quite a few processes over the years to produce my B&W images...right now, I'm looking at an A3 size B&W print produced on an Epson 2200 using IP 5.6 from one of my 8x10 Tri-X negs, and I gotta tell ya it's stunning! My biased opinion, of course! <GG> I would venture to say that the digital print is far superior to any silver print that I ever created in the analog darkroom from this neg. Bottom line...IMO LF Tri-X, especially in 8x10 size, is ever bit a lovely as digital output when compared to silver!

Alan Huntley

> 
> From: "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...>
> Date: 2003/11/11 Tue PM 02:58:13 EST
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] silver print shock today
> 
> Today I was in the film museum here in Berlin and apart from the 
> various movies from the beginnings up to now there are many many 
> wonderful, no: breathtaking photos of the last 100 years (I always 
> get sentimental when looking at old b&w photos). Many of 
> them were obviously made with large format cameras and being with my 
> 1160 UT prints here day by day it was kind of like a "reality shock" 
> to see how beautiful and good a Baryt print, and  even if its not 
> very sharp, can actually be. There is some quality and look about it 
> that I haven't managed to even approach with inkjet and digital. Its 
> not about resolution of detail, not about sharpness, its more about 
> the tones, the rich, very rich blacks, maybe the saturation I dont 
> know...
> 
> Now, can anyone tell me:
> 
> 1. If there is a inkjet paper that has the "look and feel" of 
> classical Bary paper. Which means: not like semigloss, not like 
> matte, not really like photo glossy paper. Something inbetween.
> 2. Which archival black is actually the blackest.
> 3. Which inks look the most neutral and closest to silver prints?
> 
> The museum - for those who have a chance to come to Berlin sometimes -
>  is one of the best I have seen in my life.... 
> 
> Curious for any input, and thanks in advance,
> 
> Bernie

I know exactly what you mean, and similarly I have yet to get anywhere near this look.  Large format has always in my mind produced those wonderfully creamy tones, even with indifferent technique.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bernie Ess 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:58 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] silver print shock today


  Today I was in the film museum here in Berlin and apart from the 
  various movies from the beginnings up to now there are many many 
  wonderful, no: breathtaking photos of the last 100 years (I always 
  get sentimental when looking at old b&w photos). Many of 
  them were obviously made with large format cameras and being with my 
  1160 UT prints here day by day it was kind of like a "reality shock" 
  to see how beautiful and good a Baryt print, and  even if its not 
  very sharp, can actually be. There is some quality and look about it 
  that I haven't managed to even approach with inkjet and digital. Its 
  not about resolution of detail, not about sharpness, its more about 
  the tones, the rich, very rich blacks, maybe the saturation I dont 
  know...

  Now, can anyone tell me:

  1. If there is a inkjet paper that has the "look and feel" of 
  classical Bary paper. Which means: not like semigloss, not like 
  matte, not really like photo glossy paper. Something inbetween.
  2. Which archival black is actually the blackest.
  3. Which inks look the most neutral and closest to silver prints?

  The museum - for those who have a chance to come to Berlin sometimes -
  is one of the best I have seen in my life.... 

  Curious for any input, and thanks in advance,

  Bernie


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You can get those results with your 1160...keep trying. I just hung a 
show here in Santa Fe, and was thrilled with the results on the wall, 
printing with my 1160. Don't worry about darkening your levels 
adjustment, and keep fiddling with your driver automatic adjustment 
sliders to tweak the output, along with creating a transfer curve. 
Meanwhile, give the Moab fine art entrada a try, (brush it first with 
a draftsman's brush before running it through the printer).
Best, mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "graeme.lyall" 
<graeme.lyall@n...> wrote:
> I know exactly what you mean, and similarly I have yet to get 
anywhere near this look.  Large format has always in my mind produced 
those wonderfully creamy tones, even with indifferent technique.
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Bernie Ess 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:58 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] silver print shock today
> 
> 
>   Today I was in the film museum here in Berlin and apart from the 
>   various movies from the beginnings up to now there are many many 
>   wonderful, no: breathtaking photos of the last 100 years (I 
always 
>   get sentimental when looking at old b&w photos). Many of 
>   them were obviously made with large format cameras and being with 
my 
>   1160 UT prints here day by day it was kind of like a "reality 
shock" 
>   to see how beautiful and good a Baryt print, and  even if its not 
>   very sharp, can actually be. There is some quality and look about 
it 
>   that I haven't managed to even approach with inkjet and digital. 
Its 
>   not about resolution of detail, not about sharpness, its more 
about 
>   the tones, the rich, very rich blacks, maybe the saturation I 
dont 
>   know...
> 
>   Now, can anyone tell me:
> 
>   1. If there is a inkjet paper that has the "look and feel" of 
>   classical Bary paper. Which means: not like semigloss, not like 
>   matte, not really like photo glossy paper. Something inbetween.
>   2. Which archival black is actually the blackest.
>   3. Which inks look the most neutral and closest to silver prints?
> 
>   The museum - for those who have a chance to come to Berlin 
sometimes -
>   is one of the best I have seen in my life.... 
> 
>   Curious for any input, and thanks in advance,
> 
>   Bernie
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 

> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "markroth61" 
<mark80905@h...> wrote:
> You can get those results with your 1160...keep trying. I just hung 
a 
> show here in Santa Fe, and was thrilled with the results on the 
wall, 
> printing with my 1160. Don't worry about darkening your levels 
> adjustment, and keep fiddling with your driver automatic adjustment 
> sliders to tweak the output, along with creating a transfer curve. 
> Meanwhile, give the Moab fine art entrada a try, (brush it first 
with 
> a draftsman's brush before running it through the printer).
> Best, mark

Hi and thanks for your reply: indeed I should try and experiment more 
with the ink settings and paper. Which entrada paper do you use - 190 
or 300g? And what about this brushing: won't it take the coating away?

regards Bernie

Am using the lighter weight 190. The drafsman's brush I don't know 
what it's made of, but it's soft enough not to cause any issues,
(although has fixed the problem). (In fact I use this brush to clean 
my mats right before laying on the glass while framing and it has 
spared me numerous headaches).

The fine art entrada does appear to have flaking issues on a small 
percentage of the sheets if you don't brush it , but since I started 
brushing every piece, have not had one single problem. Here's another 
trick I found works perfectly...if there is a spot that has flaked, 
find a Pentel Ceramicron black fine tipped pen cartridge (I use this 
for my finest line work on other stuff), and 'touch' the white specks 
which have flaked which would otherwise ruin your print...the ink 
blends seamlessly with the printer ink (Mis-VM).
Best, Mark


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bernie Ess" 
<albatros-@g...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "markroth61" 
> <mark80905@h...> wrote:
> > You can get those results with your 1160...keep trying. I just 
hung 
> a 
> > show here in Santa Fe, and was thrilled with the results on the 
> wall, 
> > printing with my 1160. Don't worry about darkening your levels 
> > adjustment, and keep fiddling with your driver automatic 
adjustment 
> > sliders to tweak the output, along with creating a transfer 
curve. 
> > Meanwhile, give the Moab fine art entrada a try, (brush it first 
> with 
> > a draftsman's brush before running it through the printer).
> > Best, mark
> 
> Hi and thanks for your reply: indeed I should try and experiment 
more 
> with the ink settings and paper. Which entrada paper do you use - 
190 
> or 300g? And what about this brushing: won't it take the coating 
away?
> 
> regards Bernie

At 09:38 PM 11/14/2003, Mark wrote:
>Am using the lighter weight 190. The drafsman's brush I don't know
>what it's made of, but it's soft enough not to cause any issues,


The draftsman's brush I used in my engineering days was made out of horse hair.

A----