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Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

2003-11-30 by bruce greene

On Saturday, November 29, 2003, at 06:35 PM, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Message: 14
>    Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:14:46 +0100
>    From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
> Subject: Re[2]: too many digi-shots?  Re: B&W vs. Color
>
> C J Morgan writes:
>
>> About half of those (about 60) from that trip are here:
>>
>> http://www.pbase.com/cjmorgan/italy_2003&page=all
>
> Almost every photo has been deliberately underexposed and heavily
> Photoshopped.  How come?


CJ, wonderful work. The best travel photos I've seen in years. 
Spectacular.

Anthony, please take some pictures and make beautiful photographs too.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

2003-11-30 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: bruce greene [mailto:bagreene@...]
>
> CJ, wonderful work. The best travel photos I've seen in years.
> Spectacular.
>
> Anthony, please take some pictures and make beautiful photographs too.

CJ, those are amazing. I wish I had half your skill with Photoshop, not to
mention with a camera.

Anthony, asking him why he underexposed and used Photoshop is a bit like
asking Van Gogh why he used so much unncessary paint.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

2003-11-30 by Anthony G. Atkielski

bruce greene writes:

> Anthony, please take some pictures and make beautiful
> photographs too.

See http://www.atkielski.com.  I don't know if they are beautiful or
not, but I do take pictures regularly.

[Digital BW] Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

2003-12-01 by Dennis W. Manasco

On Sunday, 29 Nov 2003 at 06:35 PM

"Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...> wrote:

>>  About half of those (about 60) from that trip are here:
>>
>>  http://www.pbase.com/cjmorgan/italy_2003&page=all
>
>  Almost every photo has been deliberately underexposed and heavily 
>Photoshopped.  How come?

(Jeeze! I hate stomping into something like this, especially when the 
purveyor is an obvious troll. BUT, the statement I've quoted above is 
unconscionable.)

I looked through the photographs on Mr. Morgan's site and found them 
not only extraordinarily pleasing but extremely well composed, 
photographed and rendered. If any of them were underexposed it has 
escaped my attention. Indeed, their were several which I would have 
exposed a 3rd of a stop less (and probably been wrong in my 
judgement).

I would appreciate it if Mr. Atkielski would quote us chapter and 
verse on the images which he finds "underexposed." I would also 
appreciate his pointing out those he finds "heavily Photoshopped" and 
explain why he thinks them so.

At 1:50 pm +0100 11/30/03, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:

>See http://www.atkielski.com.  I don't know if they are beautiful or 
>not, but I do take pictures regularly.

I also viewed Mr. Atkielski's site. There were not very many images 
to view. Those that I saw were interesting. Sadly, they were also 
often flat and (IMHO) either over, or under, exposed.


-=-Dennis


-

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

2003-12-01 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Dennis W. Manasco writes:

> I looked through the photographs on Mr. Morgan's site and found them
> not only extraordinarily pleasing but extremely well composed, 
> photographed and rendered.

I find them aesthetically pleasing overall, and well composed, if that
matters. I had not originally offered any comment on that aspect of the
photos. I noticed only the routine underexposure and the Photoshop
retouching, and I wondered what the reasons for both might have been.

> If any of them were underexposed it has
> escaped my attention.

I noticed that some images had more contrast than I would expect between
light and dark areas, and the patterns of this were consistent with
selective Photoshop modification of brightness, although it was
difficult to say whether some areas had been lightened or others
darkened.

> I would appreciate it if Mr. Atkielski would quote us chapter and
> verse on the images which he finds "underexposed."

Just look at the EXIF data: the exposure compensation is given for each
photo, and for most photos, there is a deliberate underexposure of from
1/3 to 2 stops.  Since deliberate underexposure in this way is only
possible with operator intervention, I wondered why it was done.

> I would also appreciate his pointing out those he finds
> "heavily Photoshopped" and explain why he thinks them so.

I don't have the images in front of me now, but most of the Photoshop
modifications were fairly obviously brushed in.  After you've
Photoshopped ten thousand images or so, you get pretty good at spotting
it in other photos.  It's getting harder and harder to find photos that
have _not_ been tweaked substantially in Photoshop.

> I also viewed Mr. Atkielski's site. There were not very many images
> to view.

FWIW, currently there are over 1100 images on the site, although I don't
have an exact count.

> Those that I saw were interesting.

Thanks.

> Sadly, they were also often flat and (IMHO) either over, or
> under, exposed.

I'm not sure what you mean by flat; most were shot on Provia, which is
fairly contrasty and saturated compared to real life.

Exposure was as the meter indicated; I rarely compensate manually unless
it is clear that the on-board metering has been fooled by unusual
conditions (and that almost never happens, especially with matrix
metering).  For MF shots, I meter manually with an incident-light meter.

Every photo on my site has been through Photoshop, of course, but
usually the only adjustments are overall curves, to correct gamma,
contrast, overall luminosity, etc., and to balance colors.  I don't
actually modify image composition at all, except for a few photos up in
the towers of Notre-Dame where the metal fencing was so obtrusive that
it ruined the images (I removed it).

In keeping with the topic of the list, the Street Scenes section of my
site contains a bit under 200 black and white images.  All but a handful
were shot on film, usually Tri-X (others include Portra 400BW, Tech Pan,
T-Max 100 and 400, and a few RGB conversions from Provia or other
films).

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

2003-12-01 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Anthony G. Atkielski [mailto:anthony@...]
>
> Just look at the EXIF data: the exposure compensation is given for each
> photo, and for most photos, there is a deliberate underexposure of from
> 1/3 to 2 stops.  Since deliberate underexposure in this way is only
> possible with operator intervention, I wondered why it was done.

The usual reason for such underexposure is that digicams clip highlights
hard, but shadows just descend into the noise. Therefore, you can generally
fix underexposure later, but not overexposure. I normally just leave my
Canon 10D set to -1 stop, to avoid blown highlights when I'm shooting
quickly. It's sensor is so quiet that I don't miss the 3db of S/N when I
bring the midtones up later in PS.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re[2]: [Digital BW] Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

2003-12-01 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Paul D. DeRocco writes:

> The usual reason for such underexposure is that digicams clip highlights
> hard, but shadows just descend into the noise.

That's kind of what I was thinking, although pulling shadows out of
noise seems like not much more than the lesser of two considerable
evils.

> I normally just leave my Canon 10D set to -1 stop, to avoid
> blown highlights when I'm shooting quickly. It's sensor is so
> quiet that I don't miss the 3db of S/N when I bring the midtones
> up later in PS.

What about shooting raw?  If the raw file holds the original signals off
the sensor (?) with their linear characteristic, that would give you a
lot of headroom to retain highlight and shadow, although there would be
less contrast.  With sufficient manipulation, you could have both,
albeit not in the same area of the image.  I presume that most of the
problem with blown highlights or blocked shadows in digicam photos
arises from software manipulation of the raw image right in side the
camera--to make an image "pop," you'll naturally apply something like an
S-curve to a linear signal so that the midtones stand out ...
sacrificing the highlights and shadows.  But if you can get the image
before that manipulation is performed, you should be able to recover a
lot.

RE: Re[2]: [Digital BW] Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

2003-12-01 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Anthony G. Atkielski [mailto:anthony@...]
>
> What about shooting raw?  If the raw file holds the original signals off
> the sensor (?) with their linear characteristic, that would give you a
> lot of headroom to retain highlight and shadow, although there would be
> less contrast.  With sufficient manipulation, you could have both,
> albeit not in the same area of the image.  I presume that most of the
> problem with blown highlights or blocked shadows in digicam photos
> arises from software manipulation of the raw image right in side the
> camera--to make an image "pop," you'll naturally apply something like an
> S-curve to a linear signal so that the midtones stand out ...
> sacrificing the highlights and shadows.  But if you can get the image
> before that manipulation is performed, you should be able to recover a
> lot.

That's indeed what I do. But even in raw mode, there's a hard ceiling on the
data, albeit a somewhat higher ceiling. It's surprising how often I
encounter scenes where the highlight to average ratio is quite large, such
as the bright spots on leaves. If I wanted to be very careful about each
shot, I'd use the histogram to tell if I was clipping stuff, and then
reshoot if necessary, but that's not my shooting style.

Fortunately, the Canon 10D has a pretty amazing S/N ratio at ISO 100.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

[Digital BW] Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

2003-12-01 by px3n120x

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony G. Atkielski" 
<anthony@a...> wrote:
> Dennis W. Manasco writes:
> 
> I find them aesthetically pleasing overall, and well composed, if that
> matters. 

It is the only thing that matters unless one performs a test for the process.

>I had not originally offered any comment on that aspect of the
> photos. I noticed only the routine underexposure and the Photoshop
> retouching, and I wondered what the reasons for both might have been.

Usually people take, process and show photos for their estetical qualities  in mind 
therefore what it takes to achieve that goal, from their point of view, is of little 
importance.

Andu

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

2003-12-02 by Ken Carney

Well, I don't know about trolls and all that, but the Paris street scene b&w
images I saw on www.atkielski.com were excellent -- and a lot of them.
Another good site for this is the Paris section of www.bobbaron.com.  Bob
uses a printer that printed for HCB quite a bit, and I've also printed some
of his work on inkjet.  It's interesting to compare the two.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis W. Manasco [mailto:dmanasco@...]
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 4:59 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ


On Sunday, 29 Nov 2003 at 06:35 PM

"Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...> wrote:

>>  About half of those (about 60) from that trip are here:
>>
>>  http://www.pbase.com/cjmorgan/italy_2003&page=all
>
>  Almost every photo has been deliberately underexposed and heavily
>Photoshopped.  How come?

(Jeeze! I hate stomping into something like this, especially when the
purveyor is an obvious troll. BUT, the statement I've quoted above is
unconscionable.)

I looked through the photographs on Mr. Morgan's site and found them
not only extraordinarily pleasing but extremely well composed,
photographed and rendered. If any of them were underexposed it has
escaped my attention. Indeed, their were several which I would have
exposed a 3rd of a stop less (and probably been wrong in my
judgement).

I would appreciate it if Mr. Atkielski would quote us chapter and
verse on the images which he finds "underexposed." I would also
appreciate his pointing out those he finds "heavily Photoshopped" and
explain why he thinks them so.

At 1:50 pm +0100 11/30/03, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:

>See http://www.atkielski.com.  I don't know if they are beautiful or
>not, but I do take pictures regularly.

I also viewed Mr. Atkielski's site. There were not very many images
to view. Those that I saw were interesting. Sadly, they were also
often flat and (IMHO) either over, or under, exposed.


-=-Dennis


-


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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

2003-12-02 by Dennis W. Manasco

At 6:38 pm +0100 12/1/03, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:

>Dennis W. Manasco writes:
>
>%< snip>%
>
>  > I also viewed Mr. Atkielski's site. There were not very many 
>images to view.
>
>FWIW, currently there are over 1100 images on the site, although I 
>don't have an exact count.
>
>%< snip >%


Here, I _will_ offer an apology.

When I first viewed Mr. Atkielski's site I was only able to access a 
dozen or so images. Subsequent visits to the site revealed no more, 
but did reveal pages with what looked to be distorted formatting: 
numerous horizontal lines with unloaded-picture icons at the left of 
a black field.

On one occasion my browser was able to see several of these pages as 
lists of photographs with descriptive text and visible links to Mr. 
Atkielski's photographs. I have not been able to duplicate this 
experience but, if Mr. Atkielski would like me to, I can illustrate 
the problem with screen captures (off list).

There is probably either an incompatibility between the site's HTML 
and the rendering abilities of Internet Explorer version 5.2.3 
(5815.1) on a Macintosh running OS X version 10.2.8, or a problem 
with one or more of the servers between his site and my computer.

As an aside: Viewing more of his photographs by clicking on the 
unloaded-picture icons has altered my impression of Mr. Atkielski's 
final to-web exposure equivalence. I do not always agree with either 
it or his choice of contrast, but I do admit that my reaction to the 
images which I viewed on my initial visit to his site was 
precipitously overstated.


-=-Dennis

Re[2]: [Digital BW] Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

2003-12-02 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Dennis W. Manasco writes:

> On one occasion my browser was able to see several of these pages as
> lists of photographs with descriptive text and visible links to Mr. 
> Atkielski's photographs. I have not been able to duplicate this 
> experience but, if Mr. Atkielski would like me to, I can illustrate 
> the problem with screen captures (off list).

Yes, I'd like a few screen captures of anything weird you saw.  I've
never heard of a problem like that before.  Maybe it was some sort of
one-time network quirk.  I did have to stop my server for about 10
minutes yesterday when a server in the UK started bashing it over and
over.

Also, because I have no money, many of the images are stored in
extremely compressed form on a different server--an intermittent problem
with that server may have messed up the images without affected the rest
of the pages (which comes from my own server).  It's possible to see
much higher quality images by changing the URL from www.atkielski.com to
friends.atkielski.com, but the images will download with painful
slowness then--it may be worthwhile if you are downloading a wallpaper
image to use as wallpaper, though.

> There is probably either an incompatibility between the site's HTML
> and the rendering abilities of Internet Explorer version 5.2.3 
> (5815.1) on a Macintosh running OS X version 10.2.8, or a problem 
> with one or more of the servers between his site and my computer.

An increasing number of my pages are in rigorously standard HTML; some
are formally validated (although probably not the ones you visited).  I
don't have any trouble with MSIE 6.x on Windows or with preceding
versions of that browser (recent versions).  Netscape 4.x will produce a
mess on most of the recent pages because I no longer write special
versions just to accommodate the bugs in that browser (hardly anyone
uses Netscape browsers anymore, so it's not worth it).

> As an aside: Viewing more of his photographs by clicking on the
> unloaded-picture icons has altered my impression of Mr. Atkielski's 
> final to-web exposure equivalence. I do not always agree with either 
> it or his choice of contrast, but I do admit that my reaction to the 
> images which I viewed on my initial visit to his site was 
> precipitously overstated.

If you are viewing with a Mac, be advised that many photos may look
washed out, as the standard gamma on Mac Monitors is lower than the
standard for Windows monitors.  Some Windows LCD monitors are also set
to a low gamma, although this is usually adjustable.  I used to have Mac
versions for some of the wallpaper images, but they were so rarely
downloaded that it wasn't worth the effort.  Today all the wallpaper
images are set to Windows gamma (2.2) and the colorspace is Adobe 1998
RGB (not ideal for Web display, but I'm usually too lazy to change it to
sRGB, which would have a bit more "pop").

Re: Anthony G. Atkielski vs CJ

2003-12-02 by Jon

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony G. Atkielski"
> <anthony@a...> wrote:
>> Dennis W. Manasco writes:
>> 
>> I find them aesthetically pleasing overall, and well composed, if that
>> matters. 
> 
> It is the only thing that matters unless one performs a test for the process.
> 
>> I had not originally offered any comment on that aspect of the
>> photos. I noticed only the routine underexposure and the Photoshop
>> retouching, and I wondered what the reasons for both might have been.
> 
> Usually people take, process and show photos for their estetical qualities  in
> mind 
> therefore what it takes to achieve that goal, from their point of view, is of
> little 
> importance.

Yes. 

And: Usually people don't spend months on a B/W digital printing list whilst
not doing any B/W digital printing... but instead instigating OT threads and
adding fuel to existing fires. But this pathological troll does...

Jon

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