Digital BW, The Print

Hi all,

As a full time shooter and part time magazine writer, tech. editor, I put 
forth the proposition of a double standard for analog vs. digital vs. hybrid 
photograpy a while back. However, since it showed up under the title "BW vs. 
Color," no one ever responded to my original PREMISE, even though it resulted in 
over 100 "not quite what I had in mind" responses.

Back in the darkroom days (long time for me as an adopter of digital output 
in 1986), we had a color enlarger and a B&W enlarger. We used color paper for 
color prints and B&W paper for  B&W prints. We used fiber based paper for the 
"good prints" and high gloss RC paper for publication (which ended up in the 
round file after being turned to half toned dots).

To produce, say, up to 16x20 prints, a color darkroom with a 3-lens turret 
(for all 3 formats) on a long column enlarger and analyser was about $5,000. 
Throw in some plumbing and an EP-2/RA-$ processor, and you could make the total 
about 20 grand. Zone VI darkroom equipment (cold head, regulator, precision 
digital enlarger timer, temperature compensated timer for developer, archival 
washer for fiber prints, etc.) could be had for a few grand on top of any 4x5 
used condenser enlarger. Since 80's pricing would have to be doubled for these 
inflated times, we could easily extrapolate the numbers to over $40,000 in 2003 
money. 

Now it seems we are trying to get $400 plastic throwaway printers to do this 
the cheapest way possible with colored inks and bitch about metamerism issues 
because we are not serious enough to dedicate one for color and one for B&W.

In the past, I always reserved fine art B&W for personal work and the Color 
to earn a living with. That has not changed.

But now, I celebrate the incredibly AFFORDABLE way we can all create prints 
that are better than ever. Yes, I put my money where my mouth is. I'm amazed at 
how far inkjet has come in the 12 years since I got the first large format 
inkjet printer (8-bit Encad in 1991). It could only do 256 colors, but anyone 
could see that within a short time we would print photos with this technolory. I 
never imagined the cost would go from 11 grand to less than $100 for desktop 
units...............anyway, I digress.

What is wrong with dedicating more than one printer to a specific task?

These things are cheap, people. Get one or two with color dyes, one or two 
with 3rd party pigments (one gloss and one matte black), and do the same with B&
W printers.

I know most of you can't justify "printers by the dozen," or the really big 
ones, like some pros can, but for gosh sakes, get a printer dedicated solely to 
B&W and quit trying to do it with color 
inks................................digital double standard, indeed!!

Intelligent comments invited (no flames please).

Claude Jodoin
Tech. Editor
Rangefinder Publications. 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Underlying your post is the notion that B&W digital printing should remain
the domain of those that could afford the wet darkroom you have priced out
for us all.  One of the wonderful results of the new digital technology is
that it has opened the world of printing photographs to a far broader group
of people.  I have no doubt that those amongst us who can afford and are
prepared to devote greater money to the quest for fine B&W will expand their
equipment over time to perhaps include a dedicated B&W printer, but there is
absolutely nothing wrong with trying to squeeze the best out of a given
budget and the resources immediately to hand.  Yes it is _cheaper_ than ever
before, but whether you consider it _cheap_ is a matter of personal
circumstance.  No double standard exists, simply a broadened opportunity to
participate in the wonderful world of photography.

From: claudej1@...
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 08:33:37 EST
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Again Double standards

Hi all,

As a full time shooter and part time magazine writer, tech. editor, I put
forth the proposition of a double standard for analog vs. digital vs. hybrid
photograpy a while back. However, since it showed up under the title "BW vs.
Color," no one ever responded to my original PREMISE, even though it
resulted in 
over 100 "not quite what I had in mind" responses.

Back in the darkroom days (long time for me as an adopter of digital output
in 1986), we had a color enlarger and a B&W enlarger. We used color paper
for 
color prints and B&W paper for  B&W prints. We used fiber based paper for
the 
"good prints" and high gloss RC paper for publication (which ended up in the
round file after being turned to half toned dots).

To produce, say, up to 16x20 prints, a color darkroom with a 3-lens turret
(for all 3 formats) on a long column enlarger and analyser was about $5,000.
Throw in some plumbing and an EP-2/RA-$ processor, and you could make the
total 
about 20 grand. Zone VI darkroom equipment (cold head, regulator, precision
digital enlarger timer, temperature compensated timer for developer,
archival 
washer for fiber prints, etc.) could be had for a few grand on top of any
4x5 
used condenser enlarger. Since 80's pricing would have to be doubled for
these 
inflated times, we could easily extrapolate the numbers to over $40,000 in
2003 
money. 

Now it seems we are trying to get $400 plastic throwaway printers to do this
the cheapest way possible with colored inks and bitch about metamerism
issues 
because we are not serious enough to dedicate one for color and one for B&W.

In the past, I always reserved fine art B&W for personal work and the Color
to earn a living with. That has not changed.

But now, I celebrate the incredibly AFFORDABLE way we can all create prints
that are better than ever. Yes, I put my money where my mouth is. I'm amazed
at 
how far inkjet has come in the 12 years since I got the first large format
inkjet printer (8-bit Encad in 1991). It could only do 256 colors, but
anyone 
could see that within a short time we would print photos with this
technolory. I 
never imagined the cost would go from 11 grand to less than $100 for desktop
units...............anyway, I digress.

What is wrong with dedicating more than one printer to a specific task?

These things are cheap, people. Get one or two with color dyes, one or two
with 3rd party pigments (one gloss and one matte black), and do the same
with B&
W printers.

I know most of you can't justify "printers by the dozen," or the really big
ones, like some pros can, but for gosh sakes, get a printer dedicated solely
to 
B&W and quit trying to do it with color
inks................................digital double standard, indeed!!

Intelligent comments invited (no flames please).

Claude Jodoin
Tech. Editor
Rangefinder Publications.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I know most of you can't justify "printers by the dozen," or the 
really big 
> ones, like some pros can, but for gosh sakes, get a printer 
dedicated solely to 
> B&W and quit trying to do it with color 
> inks................................digital double standard, 
indeed!!

What do you say to those who are using the Epson 2200 with ImagePrint 
or are using this and other 2880dpi printer for BO printing. Yes, 
they are the proof that one can use one printer for both B&W and 
color!

We all benefit from the people who experiment with no boundaries and 
report back on their experiences. 

Cheers,
Andre

Well Said.
So much time and effort talking about it and all you need to do is dedicate
one printer for the one task of B&W.
I am still learning myself but if there is one thing I have learned it is
that certain printers with certain inks can do one job better.
I may need your advice on which one is the best for certain jobs but realize
you need to dedicate them.
What do you recommend for B&W?  I like doing matt prints.  Please give me
your suggestion.
Price is no object.
Regards.......Brad.




On 12/9/03 8:33 PM, "claudej1@..." <claudej1@...> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> As a full time shooter and part time magazine writer, tech. editor, I put
> forth the proposition of a double standard for analog vs. digital vs. hybrid
> photograpy a while back. However, since it showed up under the title "BW vs.
> Color," no one ever responded to my original PREMISE, even though it resulted
> in 
> over 100 "not quite what I had in mind" responses.
> 
> Back in the darkroom days (long time for me as an adopter of digital output
> in 1986), we had a color enlarger and a B&W enlarger. We used color paper for
> color prints and B&W paper for  B&W prints. We used fiber based paper for the
> "good prints" and high gloss RC paper for publication (which ended up in the
> round file after being turned to half toned dots).
> 
> To produce, say, up to 16x20 prints, a color darkroom with a 3-lens turret
> (for all 3 formats) on a long column enlarger and analyser was about $5,000.
> Throw in some plumbing and an EP-2/RA-$ processor, and you could make the
> total 
> about 20 grand. Zone VI darkroom equipment (cold head, regulator, precision
> digital enlarger timer, temperature compensated timer for developer, archival
> washer for fiber prints, etc.) could be had for a few grand on top of any 4x5
> used condenser enlarger. Since 80's pricing would have to be doubled for these
> inflated times, we could easily extrapolate the numbers to over $40,000 in
> 2003 
> money. 
> 
> Now it seems we are trying to get $400 plastic throwaway printers to do this
> the cheapest way possible with colored inks and bitch about metamerism issues
> because we are not serious enough to dedicate one for color and one for B&W.
> 
> In the past, I always reserved fine art B&W for personal work and the Color
> to earn a living with. That has not changed.
> 
> But now, I celebrate the incredibly AFFORDABLE way we can all create prints
> that are better than ever. Yes, I put my money where my mouth is. I'm amazed
> at 
> how far inkjet has come in the 12 years since I got the first large format
> inkjet printer (8-bit Encad in 1991). It could only do 256 colors, but anyone
> could see that within a short time we would print photos with this technolory.
> I 
> never imagined the cost would go from 11 grand to less than $100 for desktop
> units...............anyway, I digress.
> 
> What is wrong with dedicating more than one printer to a specific task?
> 
> These things are cheap, people. Get one or two with color dyes, one or two
> with 3rd party pigments (one gloss and one matte black), and do the same with
> B&
> W printers.
> 
> I know most of you can't justify "printers by the dozen," or the really big
> ones, like some pros can, but for gosh sakes, get a printer dedicated solely
> to 
> B&W and quit trying to do it with color
> inks................................digital double standard, indeed!!
> 
> Intelligent comments invited (no flames please).
> 
> Claude Jodoin
> Tech. Editor
> Rangefinder Publications.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>  
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> b/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1071063231/A=1900378/R=1/*http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/
> yhxxxbre02200362ave/direct;wi.300;hi.250/01/&time=1070976831978401>
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
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> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
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> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Claude  -

You ingnore the fact that many of us did not invest $20-40,000 in a 4x5 darkroom, and had a nice setup and produced the highest quality prints.  One enlarger was the norm for, I would guess, at least 90% of the darkrooms with a 4x5 enlarger.  We don't suddenly need to abandon that philosophy.  

If you were in a production environment, more than one enlarger was required for the load.  So, you had more than one enlarger.  Same today.  If you're in a production environment, you have more than on printer.  No difference.

Tom Baker

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brad  -
 
If price is no object, you still have one question to answer.  Is print life of 75-150 years adequate, or do you require longer life?  If it's the latter, you will want to go with the pure carbon solution(s).  If it's the former, then it's Epson 9600, Imageprint, and Ultrachrome inks.
 
Tom Baker

Brad Mol <bradmol99@...> wrote:
Well Said.
So much time and effort talking about it and all you need to do is dedicate
one printer for the one task of B&W.
I am still learning myself but if there is one thing I have learned it is
that certain printers with certain inks can do one job better.
I may need your advice on which one is the best for certain jobs but realize
you need to dedicate them.
What do you recommend for B&W?  I like doing matt prints.  Please give me
your suggestion.
Price is no object.
Regards.......Brad.




On 12/9/03 8:33 PM, "claudej1@..." <claudej1@aol.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> As a full time shooter and part time magazine writer, tech. editor, I put
> forth the proposition of a double standard for analog vs. digital vs. hybrid
> photograpy a while back. However, since it showed up under the title "BW vs.
> Color," no one ever responded to my original PREMISE, even though it resulted
> in 
> over 100 "not quite what I had in mind" responses.
> 
> Back in the darkroom days (long time for me as an adopter of digital output
> in 1986), we had a color enlarger and a B&W enlarger. We used color paper for
> color prints and B&W paper for  B&W prints. We used fiber based paper for the
> "good prints" and high gloss RC paper for publication (which ended up in the
> round file after being turned to half toned dots).
> 
> To produce, say, up to 16x20 prints, a color darkroom with a 3-lens turret
> (for all 3 formats) on a long column enlarger and analyser was about $5,000.
> Throw in some plumbing and an EP-2/RA-$ processor, and you could make the
> total 
> about 20 grand. Zone VI darkroom equipment (cold head, regulator, precision
> digital enlarger timer, temperature compensated timer for developer, archival
> washer for fiber prints, etc.) could be had for a few grand on top of any 4x5
> used condenser enlarger. Since 80's pricing would have to be doubled for these
> inflated times, we could easily extrapolate the numbers to over $40,000 in
> 2003 
> money. 
> 
> Now it seems we are trying to get $400 plastic throwaway printers to do this
> the cheapest way possible with colored inks and bitch about metamerism issues
> because we are not serious enough to dedicate one for color and one for B&W.
> 
> In the past, I always reserved fine art B&W for personal work and the Color
> to earn a living with. That has not changed.
> 
> But now, I celebrate the incredibly AFFORDABLE way we can all create prints
> that are better than ever. Yes, I put my money where my mouth is. I'm amazed
> at 
> how far inkjet has come in the 12 years since I got the first large format
> inkjet printer (8-bit Encad in 1991). It could only do 256 colors, but anyone
> could see that within a short time we would print photos with this technolory.
> I 
> never imagined the cost would go from 11 grand to less than $100 for desktop
> units...............anyway, I digress.
> 
> What is wrong with dedicating more than one printer to a specific task?
> 
> These things are cheap, people. Get one or two with color dyes, one or two
> with 3rd party pigments (one gloss and one matte black), and do the same with
> B&
> W printers.
> 
> I know most of you can't justify "printers by the dozen," or the really big
> ones, like some pros can, but for gosh sakes, get a printer dedicated solely
> to 
> B&W and quit trying to do it with color
> inks................................digital double standard, indeed!!
> 
> Intelligent comments invited (no flames please).
> 
> Claude Jodoin
> Tech. Editor
> Rangefinder Publications.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>  
> <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12caf5340/M=266807.4061684.5480892.3957873/D=egroupwe
> b/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1071063231/A=1900378/R=1/*http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/
> yhxxxbre02200362ave/direct;wi.300;hi.250/01/&time=1070976831978401>
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND
> �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom

Thanks for the info.
I am aware of the 9600 as a good color printer.
Is it good for B&W and are the Ultrachrome inks B&W?
Are these standard Epson Inks?
I believe the 75-150 years are adequate but would like to know a bit more
about the carbon solutions.  How long do they last and are they better or
far more expensive?  If I am getting much longer life for a bit more cash
and as good or better quality image with carbon solutions then that is fine
as well.  Please elaborate if you can.
Also, what is you opinion if any on the new 4000 Epson printer?
I know it produces only A2 format but is it a better image printer than the
7600 or 9600?
Regards........Brad.


On 12/9/03 10:02 PM, "Tom Baker" <tbaker1328@...> wrote:

> Brad  -
> 
> If price is no object, you still have one question to answer.  Is print life
> of 75-150 years adequate, or do you require longer life?  If it's the latter,
> you will want to go with the pure carbon solution(s).  If it's the former,
> then it's Epson 9600, Imageprint, and Ultrachrome inks.
> 
> Tom Baker
> 
> Brad Mol <bradmol99@...> wrote:
> Well Said.
> So much time and effort talking about it and all you need to do is dedicate
> one printer for the one task of B&W.
> I am still learning myself but if there is one thing I have learned it is
> that certain printers with certain inks can do one job better.
> I may need your advice on which one is the best for certain jobs but realize
> you need to dedicate them.
> What do you recommend for B&W?  I like doing matt prints.  Please give me
> your suggestion.
> Price is no object.
> Regards.......Brad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 12/9/03 8:33 PM, "claudej1@..." <claudej1@...> wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> As a full time shooter and part time magazine writer, tech. editor, I put
>> forth the proposition of a double standard for analog vs. digital vs. hybrid
>> photograpy a while back. However, since it showed up under the title "BW vs.
>> Color," no one ever responded to my original PREMISE, even though it resulted
>> in 
>> over 100 "not quite what I had in mind" responses.
>> 
>> Back in the darkroom days (long time for me as an adopter of digital output
>> in 1986), we had a color enlarger and a B&W enlarger. We used color paper for
>> color prints and B&W paper for  B&W prints. We used fiber based paper for the
>> "good prints" and high gloss RC paper for publication (which ended up in the
>> round file after being turned to half toned dots).
>> 
>> To produce, say, up to 16x20 prints, a color darkroom with a 3-lens turret
>> (for all 3 formats) on a long column enlarger and analyser was about $5,000.
>> Throw in some plumbing and an EP-2/RA-$ processor, and you could make the
>> total 
>> about 20 grand. Zone VI darkroom equipment (cold head, regulator, precision
>> digital enlarger timer, temperature compensated timer for developer, archival
>> washer for fiber prints, etc.) could be had for a few grand on top of any 4x5
>> used condenser enlarger. Since 80's pricing would have to be doubled for
>> these
>> inflated times, we could easily extrapolate the numbers to over $40,000 in
>> 2003 
>> money. 
>> 
>> Now it seems we are trying to get $400 plastic throwaway printers to do this
>> the cheapest way possible with colored inks and bitch about metamerism issues
>> because we are not serious enough to dedicate one for color and one for B&W.
>> 
>> In the past, I always reserved fine art B&W for personal work and the Color
>> to earn a living with. That has not changed.
>> 
>> But now, I celebrate the incredibly AFFORDABLE way we can all create prints
>> that are better than ever. Yes, I put my money where my mouth is. I'm amazed
>> at 
>> how far inkjet has come in the 12 years since I got the first large format
>> inkjet printer (8-bit Encad in 1991). It could only do 256 colors, but anyone
>> could see that within a short time we would print photos with this
>> technolory.
>> I 
>> never imagined the cost would go from 11 grand to less than $100 for desktop
>> units...............anyway, I digress.
>> 
>> What is wrong with dedicating more than one printer to a specific task?
>> 
>> These things are cheap, people. Get one or two with color dyes, one or two
>> with 3rd party pigments (one gloss and one matte black), and do the same with
>> B&
>> W printers.
>> 
>> I know most of you can't justify "printers by the dozen," or the really big
>> ones, like some pros can, but for gosh sakes, get a printer dedicated solely
>> to 
>> B&W and quit trying to do it with color
>> inks................................digital double standard, indeed!!
>> 
>> Intelligent comments invited (no flames please).
>> 
>> Claude Jodoin
>> Tech. Editor
>> Rangefinder Publications.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Brad  -
 
The 2000, 7600, and 9600 w/Imageprint and Ultrachrome inks can produce b&w and color prints that are as good as any that can be produced on an ink jet printer w/pigment inks today.  IP offers an additional feature that allows you to easily add 'tone' (within reasonable limits) to you b&w prints.  It's useful and predictable.
 
I haven't seen any prints from the 4000 and IP.  I don't know if it's done yet.  I don't know much about the 4000 except that its faster and has a smaller droplet size is slightly smaller.  I would think the Colorbyte(Imageprint) would take advantage of this.  I don't know that this will produce a visably better print.  The big advantage for some will be the ability to have both matt and photo black inks available without having to switch.  That's a money saver.  If the 17' size is adequate for your needs, the 4000 is probably going to be a good printer.
 
Tom Baker




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom,
 
>The 2000, 7600, and 9600 w/Imageprint and Ultrachrome inks can produce b&w
>and color prints that are as good as any that can be produced on an ink jet
>printer w/pigment inks today.  ...

The 2000?  I think you meant 2200/2100.  

Well, running those light black inks all the way up into the highlights is
going to put a few people off if they are doing small prints.  While I don't
mind them in matte 8x10 prints, RC/glossy papers might be about to become
more important.  (I just printed a sample with a dmax of over 2.4; Dirk's
samples sprayed with PremierArt Print Guard show amazingly little bronzing.)
Those papers really show off the printer defects.  1280 owners find that
2880 matters with these papers.  I wonder if ImagePrint is going to be able
to handle RC papers with those light black dots in the highlights.

ImagePrint is an excellent product, no question.  It is what the Epson
driver should have been able to do without buying a separate piece of
software.  However, the lack of a light gray ink does limit the system.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Tom 

That advice is great.
Do you mean the 2200 or the 2000?  Maybe I am confused or are they the same.
I take it the imageprint is software?
Are the Ultrachrome inks the ones that Epson produces for this printer or
are you talking about a 3rd party supplier?
I have seen the 4000 but the set up was not good to judge the quality of the
prints.
I believe with the proper set up etc, it would be as good but limits your
size.
Please let me know what your reply is to the questions I have.
I appreciate you advice.
Regards........Brad.


On 12/9/03 11:11 PM, "Tom Baker" <tbaker1328@...> wrote:

> Brad  -
> 
> The 2000, 7600, and 9600 w/Imageprint and Ultrachrome inks can produce b&w and
> color prints that are as good as any that can be produced on an ink jet
> printer w/pigment inks today.  IP offers an additional feature that allows you
> to easily add 'tone' (within reasonable limits) to you b&w prints.  It's
> useful and predictable.
> 
> I haven't seen any prints from the 4000 and IP.  I don't know if it's done
> yet.  I don't know much about the 4000 except that its faster and has a
> smaller droplet size is slightly smaller.  I would think the
> Colorbyte(Imageprint) would take advantage of this.  I don't know that this
> will produce a visably better print.  The big advantage for some will be the
> ability to have both matt and photo black inks available without having to
> switch.  That's a money saver.  If the 17' size is adequate for your needs,
> the 4000 is probably going to be a good printer.
> 
> Tom Baker
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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Paul  -
 
With a dmax of 2.4, the entire picture changes. The market for cotton papers may take a dive!  What was the paper/ink that produced 2.4?
 
Tom Baker




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Tom,
 
>With a dmax of 2.4, the entire picture changes. The market for cotton
>papers may take a dive!  What was the paper/ink that produced 2.4?

The paper was Epson Premium Luster (not my favorite, but what I have), the
ink was MIS Photo K (UT-2 inkset), the printer was the 1280, and the paper
setting "Photo Paper" at 1440 slow.

Consistent with Dirk's experiments, I've found that the PremierArt spray
significantly reduces the bronzing.  It also lowered the dmax to the 2.2
range.

Dirk has found that Epson Pro Glossy is his paper of choice, and some sample
prints he showed me are impressive.  I measured an area with good detail on
one of these that, even with the detail, had 1.9 density.  This beats my
silver prints.

I'm going to get a sample of Epson Semi-matte Friday.  Some favor that paper
(which is only available in rolls for some reason).

I also have a can of Lyson Print Guard.  It and the PremierArt spray appear
to be the same product.  The cans and labels look the same, and the same
wording is even used on the labels.  On the back of the label both are
called "Protective Coating"  "1950."

I suspect there are other sprays that are also essentially the same.  Of
course PremierArt has the marketing advantage of a Wilhelm blessing.

With the right RC paper and one of these sprays, RC papers may be ready for
prime time.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> Brad  -
>  
> The 2000, 7600, and 9600 w/Imageprint and Ultrachrome inks can
produce b&w and color prints that are as good as any that can be
produced on an ink jet printer w/pigment inks today...

That's an opinion, not a fact, though it can certainly make very nice
prints. "Very nice" is as useful as "as good as".
Tyler

I agree with Claude and will take it a step farther. I have seen 
photographers spend large amounts of time and money all in the name of 
saving a few dollars. I would guess that if you added up the time and 
materials cost that some people have spent trying to get a single 
printer to do it all they would have been better off just to spend the 
money on a second printer to begin with.

cort

--
Cort Anderson
Training Wheels, llc
www.trwheels.com
620-488-2960
620-488-3196 fax

You're right.  That's an opinion.  But, I can now say that it is the opinion of quite a few people that are able to see prints, hanging in a gallery, made both ways.  These 'opinions' have been collected over a period of a few weeks. 
 
Tom Baker

Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> Brad  -
>  
> The 2000, 7600, and 9600 w/Imageprint and Ultrachrome inks can
produce b&w and color prints that are as good as any that can be
produced on an ink jet printer w/pigment inks today...

That's an opinion, not a fact, though it can certainly make very nice
prints. "Very nice" is as useful as "as good as".
Tyler




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

claudej1@... wrote:

>What is wrong with dedicating more than one printer to a specific task?
>
>These things are cheap, people. Get one or two with color dyes, one or two 
>with 3rd party pigments (one gloss and one matte black), and do the same with B&
>W printers.
>
>I know most of you can't justify "printers by the dozen," or the really big 
>ones, like some pros can, but for gosh sakes, get a printer dedicated solely to 
>B&W and quit trying to do it with color 
>inks................................digital double standard, indeed!!
>
>  
>
Agreed 100% Claude..

Perhaps someday an all-in-one printer will do perfect B&W and Perfect 
color across a range of glossy and matte, RC, cast, and uncoated media 
for a truly economic price.  But that day is NOT yet, not even nearly, 
here..  To complain that one printer doesn't  do it all and somehow the 
vendors are therefore failing is  a tad ridiculous..

It's like the arguments about the cost of PhotoShop and how printer X 
takes 10 minutes for a print. Sometimes we all need to step back and 
compare how mush faster, easier, and cheaper it is than the wet darkroom 
(and how  much newer this workflow/process is - progress has been 
staggering over what is really as short timeline).  Otherwise, we all, 
myself included, risk soon becoming just truculent whining complainers 
with little perspective on the big picture.

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Brad  -
 
Yep, 2200 not 2000.  Ultrachrome inks are the Epson OEM for the 2200, 7600, 9600 and 4000.
 
Yes, a RIP is software.  You can check out the capabilities of Imageprint on the ColorbyteSoftware web site.  It isn't cheap.  On the other hand, someone just posted that they had seen good results from a profile download from 'dotworks.com'.  Sounds like something to investigate.  Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because something is provided for free, it can't be good.  Some of the best stuff you'll find in the area is provided for free.  Thanks to the very hard work and dedication of some who contribute to this site.
 
If the 4000 size limits fit your needs, it might be a good bet.  It is beginning to look like it will be well supported, and it has some nice features (reading from the specs).  I would expect Imageprint to support it.  But, I understand that MIS (MIS is a major supplier of 3rd party inks) and Paul Roark are also interested in the 4000's capabilities.  So, that is a plus.  
 
I haven't checked out the dotworks web site.  You might want to take a look.  If they produce profiles that get top notch results with the Epson drivers, that's a real win.
 
Again, don't overlook the free stuff.  It usually requires a little more understanding of the process than some of the big products that are designed with complete ease of use in mind, but the results can be great.
 
Do some reading.  You can look up the role of a RIP on several inet sites.  RIP's come purposed for several different applications.  Read up on that.  Also, understand the role that the drivers play in the process.  The other thing you want to understand is 'curves'.  As used here they apply to your image processing software (Photoshop, etc.).  Curves are the basis of a lot of what is being done in the dedicated b&w work you read about on this forum.
 
This stuff is fun.  Jump in.
 
Tom Baker
 


 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is the same "old mans" stuff about wet verus digital, why not 
take it off list. Same people, same stuff.

If you spent a little time and looked at the dotworks site you will 
find that their profiles are for their papers. The orginal post 
saying how great their free profiles are smell of spam to me. 

If you really want a cheap way to print fab prints from a 2200 
without the cost of a mac or a Rip, take a look at Clayton Jones site
Theres something that everone interested in B/W from a 2200 should 
take a look at. 

Sierra Gold

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> Brad  -
>  
> Yep, 2200 not 2000.  Ultrachrome inks are the Epson OEM for the 
2200, 7600, 9600 and 4000.
>  
> Yes, a RIP is software.  You can check out the capabilities of 
Imageprint on the ColorbyteSoftware web site.  It isn't cheap.  On 
the other hand, someone just posted that they had seen good results 
from a profile download from 'dotworks.com'.  Sounds like something 
to investigate.  Don't make the mistake of thinking that just 
because something is provided for free, it can't be good.  Some of 
the best stuff you'll find in the area is provided for free.  Thanks 
to the very hard work and dedication of some who contribute to this 
site.
>  
> If the 4000 size limits fit your needs, it might be a good bet.  
It is beginning to look like it will be well supported, and it has 
some nice features (reading from the specs).  I would expect 
Imageprint to support it.  But, I understand that MIS (MIS is a 
major supplier of 3rd party inks) and Paul Roark are also interested 
in the 4000's capabilities.  So, that is a plus.  
>  
> I haven't checked out the dotworks web site.  You might want to 
take a look.  If they produce profiles that get top notch results 
with the Epson drivers, that's a real win.
>  
> Again, don't overlook the free stuff.  It usually requires a 
little more understanding of the process than some of the big 
products that are designed with complete ease of use in mind, but 
the results can be great.
>  
> Do some reading.  You can look up the role of a RIP on several 
inet sites.  RIP's come purposed for several different 
applications.  Read up on that.  Also, understand the role that the 
drivers play in the process.  The other thing you want to understand 
is 'curves'.  As used here they apply to your image processing 
software (Photoshop, etc.).  Curves are the basis of a lot of what 
is being done in the dedicated b&w work you read about on this forum.

>  
> This stuff is fun.  Jump in.
>  
> Tom Baker
>  
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, I don't know what you mean by "both ways", since there now seem
to be many ways to go, but as one who has been seriously involved in
monochromatic printing with inkjets since quad tones were but a rumor
(much less IP), I don't share that opinion. Not only that but I can
say that there are many that don't share it whose opinions have been
forming over a period of years, rather than a few weeks.
To each his/her own.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> You're right.  That's an opinion.  But, I can now say that it is the
opinion of quite a few people that are able to see prints, hanging in
a gallery, made both ways.  These 'opinions' have been collected over
a period of a few weeks. 
>  
> Tom Baker

How'd you get 'wet vs. digital' out this?
 
Tom Baker

flyfishingusa2002 <tflyfish@...> wrote:
This is the same "old mans" stuff about wet verus digital, why not 
take it off list. Same people, same stuff.

If you spent a little time and looked at the dotworks site you will 
find that their profiles are for their papers. The orginal post 
saying how great their free profiles are smell of spam to me. 

If you really want a cheap way to print fab prints from a 2200 
without the cost of a mac or a Rip, take a look at Clayton Jones site
Theres something that everone interested in B/W from a 2200 should 
take a look at. 

Sierra Gold

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> Brad  -
>  
> Yep, 2200 not 2000.  Ultrachrome inks are the Epson OEM for the 
2200, 7600, 9600 and 4000.
>  
> Yes, a RIP is software.  You can check out the capabilities of 
Imageprint on the ColorbyteSoftware web site.  It isn't cheap.  On 
the other hand, someone just posted that they had seen good results 
from a profile download from 'dotworks.com'.  Sounds like something 
to investigate.  Don't make the mistake of thinking that just 
because something is provided for free, it can't be good.  Some of 
the best stuff you'll find in the area is provided for free.  Thanks 
to the very hard work and dedication of some who contribute to this 
site.
>  
> If the 4000 size limits fit your needs, it might be a good bet.  
It is beginning to look like it will be well supported, and it has 
some nice features (reading from the specs).  I would expect 
Imageprint to support it.  But, I understand that MIS (MIS is a 
major supplier of 3rd party inks) and Paul Roark are also interested 
in the 4000's capabilities.  So, that is a plus.  
>  
> I haven't checked out the dotworks web site.  You might want to 
take a look.  If they produce profiles that get top notch results 
with the Epson drivers, that's a real win.
>  
> Again, don't overlook the free stuff.  It usually requires a 
little more understanding of the process than some of the big 
products that are designed with complete ease of use in mind, but 
the results can be great.
>  
> Do some reading.  You can look up the role of a RIP on several 
inet sites.  RIP's come purposed for several different 
applications.  Read up on that.  Also, understand the role that the 
drivers play in the process.  The other thing you want to understand 
is 'curves'.  As used here they apply to your image processing 
software (Photoshop, etc.).  Curves are the basis of a lot of what 
is being done in the dedicated b&w work you read about on this forum.
>  
> This stuff is fun.  Jump in.
>  
> Tom Baker
>  
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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I'm not here to argue.  Thanks for you opinion.
 
Tom Baker

Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:
Well, I don't know what you mean by "both ways", since there now seem
to be many ways to go, but as one who has been seriously involved in
monochromatic printing with inkjets since quad tones were but a rumor
(much less IP), I don't share that opinion. Not only that but I can
say that there are many that don't share it whose opinions have been
forming over a period of years, rather than a few weeks.
To each his/her own.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> You're right.  That's an opinion.  But, I can now say that it is the
opinion of quite a few people that are able to see prints, hanging in
a gallery, made both ways.  These 'opinions' have been collected over
a period of a few weeks. 
>  
> Tom Baker


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At 08:33 AM 12/9/03 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>As a full time shooter and part time magazine writer, tech. editor, I put
>forth the proposition of a double standard for analog vs. digital vs. hybrid
>photograpy a while back. However, since it showed up under the title "BW vs.
>Color," no one ever responded to my original PREMISE, even though it 
>resulted in
>over 100 "not quite what I had in mind" responses.
>
>Back in the darkroom days (long time for me as an adopter of digital output
>in 1986), we had a color enlarger and a B&W enlarger. We used color paper for
>color prints and B&W paper for  B&W prints. We used fiber based paper for the
>"good prints" and high gloss RC paper for publication (which ended up in the
>round file after being turned to half toned dots).
>
>To produce, say, up to 16x20 prints, a color darkroom with a 3-lens turret
>(for all 3 formats) on a long column enlarger and analyser was about $5,000.
>Throw in some plumbing and an EP-2/RA-$ processor, and you could make the 
>total
>about 20 grand. Zone VI darkroom equipment (cold head, regulator, precision
>digital enlarger timer, temperature compensated timer for developer, archival
>washer for fiber prints, etc.) could be had for a few grand on top of any 4x5
>used condenser enlarger. Since 80's pricing would have to be doubled for 
>these
>inflated times, we could easily extrapolate the numbers to over $40,000 in 
>2003
>money.
>
>Now it seems we are trying to get $400 plastic throwaway printers to do this
>the cheapest way possible with colored inks and bitch about metamerism issues
>because we are not serious enough to dedicate one for color and one for B&W.
>
>In the past, I always reserved fine art B&W for personal work and the Color
>to earn a living with. That has not changed.
>
>But now, I celebrate the incredibly AFFORDABLE way we can all create prints
>that are better than ever. Yes, I put my money where my mouth is. I'm 
>amazed at
>how far inkjet has come in the 12 years since I got the first large format
>inkjet printer (8-bit Encad in 1991). It could only do 256 colors, but anyone
>could see that within a short time we would print photos with this 
>technolory. I
>never imagined the cost would go from 11 grand to less than $100 for desktop
>units...............anyway, I digress.
>
>What is wrong with dedicating more than one printer to a specific task?
>
>These things are cheap, people. Get one or two with color dyes, one or two
>with 3rd party pigments (one gloss and one matte black), and do the same 
>with B&
>W printers.
>
>I know most of you can't justify "printers by the dozen," or the really big
>ones, like some pros can, but for gosh sakes, get a printer dedicated 
>solely to
>B&W and quit trying to do it with color
>inks................................digital double standard, indeed!!
>
>Intelligent comments invited (no flames please).
>
>Claude Jodoin
>Tech. Editor
>Rangefinder Publications.
>
>
>

Claude,

  I agree that we really have very little to squawk about now. We gripe 
about the lack of QC on ink jet across the board but forget that photo 
printing papers were less than consistent too. And remember what crap RC 
was when it first came out?  Color labs had to be fine-tuned for each lot 
number of film and paper.  Maybe there should be "pro" grades of ink jet 
gear - somebody like the late Fred Picker to tune printers and re-package 
consumables for a premium.  If you compare the wastage of  an old amateur 
color dark room with OEM ink jet printing, ink jet looks cheap.

AZ



Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us

I think that new HP 7960 comes very close to this.  Yes, only with HP 
inks and papers, and nothing bigger than Letter size, but it's a start. 
  If it makes HP plenty of money, and I think it will, we could see this 
tech move up the line and be adopted by other vendors.

As someone who never used wet process since a few times back in high 
school, I am rather enjoying digital process even with such humble tools 
as a Minolta Dimage Scan Dual II, Photoshop Elements, and a HP DeskJet 
950C.  Just being able to create a print, save it to file, and then 
later go back and crank out the same exact print with no effort other 
than "push here dummy" counts for a lot.  I am very much looking forward 
to getting started with quadtones next month when I order the new toys.

Forget the wet darkroom.  Not even gonna start.  Well, maybe soup my own 
B&W negatives someday.  Or maybe not.

Rad

Editor P.O.V. Image Service wrote:

> Perhaps someday an all-in-one printer will do perfect B&W and Perfect 
> color across a range of glossy and matte, RC, cast, and uncoated media 
> for a truly economic price.  But that day is NOT yet, not even nearly, 
> here..  To complain that one printer doesn't  do it all and somehow the 
> vendors are therefore failing is  a tad ridiculous..
> 
> It's like the arguments about the cost of PhotoShop and how printer X 
> takes 10 minutes for a print. Sometimes we all need to step back and 
> compare how mush faster, easier, and cheaper it is than the wet darkroom 
> (and how  much newer this workflow/process is - progress has been 
> staggering over what is really as short timeline).  Otherwise, we all, 
> myself included, risk soon becoming just truculent whining complainers 
> with little perspective on the big picture.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Conrad Weiser 
<radimus@p...> wrote:
> I think that new HP 7960 comes very close to this.  Yes, only with 
HP 
> inks and papers, and nothing bigger than Letter size, but it's a 
start. 

Dye ink and special HP paper. Just another way to get a captive 
market. I don't think so. 
Besides, HP's marketing dept. has a track record of always being a 
step ahead of its technology!!!
Cheers,
Andre

I find the HP system just as appealing, personally.  However, there are 
legions of mid- to high-end digicam users out there who will eat this 
up.  People who just want to take nice family snaps and then crank out a 
few prints for the wall or album without the hassle of a lab.

But like I said, it's a start.  The industry is testing the waters.

Rad

sceptre12345 wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Conrad Weiser 
> <radimus@p...> wrote:
> 
>>I think that new HP 7960 comes very close to this.  Yes, only with 
> 
> HP 
> 
>>inks and papers, and nothing bigger than Letter size, but it's a 
> 
> start. 
> 
> Dye ink and special HP paper. Just another way to get a captive 
> market. I don't think so. 
> Besides, HP's marketing dept. has a track record of always being a 
> step ahead of its technology!!!
> Cheers,
> Andre

Dear Mr. ALan,
All of waht you write is true. I to remeber those days of teadous work in the dark room to get a perfect print. it all
starts from the lens quality to the negative, the print is the final vision. It has to be right. So your tools in the dark room
have to be perfect. Then your chemicals have to be right. What type of developer (from film to paper) to use to get 
your final image. These steps are still conducted in the digital age. It still takes a good hour to get a great print. You still
do test to get what you really what. Would'nt it be great if we could do teststrips for exposure test on the desktop printer???
May be not.
So i agree with dedication of one printer for each. the results are consistant. But what of the 2200? can you get good 
results from exchanging inks and paper? Or would you dedicate that printer for b/w and say a 1280 for color?

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Alan Zinn 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Again Double standards


  At 08:33 AM 12/9/03 -0500, you wrote:
  >Hi all,
  >
  >As a full time shooter and part time magazine writer, tech. editor, I put
  >forth the proposition of a double standard for analog vs. digital vs. hybrid
  >photograpy a while back. However, since it showed up under the title "BW vs.
  >Color," no one ever responded to my original PREMISE, even though it 
  >resulted in
  >over 100 "not quite what I had in mind" responses.
  >
  >Back in the darkroom days (long time for me as an adopter of digital output
  >in 1986), we had a color enlarger and a B&W enlarger. We used color paper for
  >color prints and B&W paper for  B&W prints. We used fiber based paper for the
  >"good prints" and high gloss RC paper for publication (which ended up in the
  >round file after being turned to half toned dots).
  >
  >To produce, say, up to 16x20 prints, a color darkroom with a 3-lens turret
  >(for all 3 formats) on a long column enlarger and analyser was about $5,000.
  >Throw in some plumbing and an EP-2/RA-$ processor, and you could make the 
  >total
  >about 20 grand. Zone VI darkroom equipment (cold head, regulator, precision
  >digital enlarger timer, temperature compensated timer for developer, archival
  >washer for fiber prints, etc.) could be had for a few grand on top of any 4x5
  >used condenser enlarger. Since 80's pricing would have to be doubled for 
  >these
  >inflated times, we could easily extrapolate the numbers to over $40,000 in 
  >2003
  >money.
  >
  >Now it seems we are trying to get $400 plastic throwaway printers to do this
  >the cheapest way possible with colored inks and bitch about metamerism issues
  >because we are not serious enough to dedicate one for color and one for B&W.
  >
  >In the past, I always reserved fine art B&W for personal work and the Color
  >to earn a living with. That has not changed.
  >
  >But now, I celebrate the incredibly AFFORDABLE way we can all create prints
  >that are better than ever. Yes, I put my money where my mouth is. I'm 
  >amazed at
  >how far inkjet has come in the 12 years since I got the first large format
  >inkjet printer (8-bit Encad in 1991). It could only do 256 colors, but anyone
  >could see that within a short time we would print photos with this 
  >technolory. I
  >never imagined the cost would go from 11 grand to less than $100 for desktop
  >units...............anyway, I digress.
  >
  >What is wrong with dedicating more than one printer to a specific task?
  >
  >These things are cheap, people. Get one or two with color dyes, one or two
  >with 3rd party pigments (one gloss and one matte black), and do the same 
  >with B&
  >W printers.
  >
  >I know most of you can't justify "printers by the dozen," or the really big
  >ones, like some pros can, but for gosh sakes, get a printer dedicated 
  >solely to
  >B&W and quit trying to do it with color
  >inks................................digital double standard, indeed!!
  >
  >Intelligent comments invited (no flames please).
  >
  >Claude Jodoin
  >Tech. Editor
  >Rangefinder Publications.
  >
  >
  >

  Claude,

    I agree that we really have very little to squawk about now. We gripe 
  about the lack of QC on ink jet across the board but forget that photo 
  printing papers were less than consistent too. And remember what crap RC 
  was when it first came out?  Color labs had to be fine-tuned for each lot 
  number of film and paper.  Maybe there should be "pro" grades of ink jet 
  gear - somebody like the late Fred Picker to tune printers and re-package 
  consumables for a premium.  If you compare the wastage of  an old amateur 
  color dark room with OEM ink jet printing, ink jet looks cheap.

  AZ



  Build a Lookaround!
  The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
  NOW SHIPPING
  http://www.panoramacamera.us




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