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Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-09 by Joe Davajon

Here is the procedure alleged to be a simple way of printing B@W on the 
2200 as referred to on this site recently.
     
     1.  Image must be in RGB
     2.  Go to Image then Adjustments then desaturate to remove 
           possible color tints.
     3.  Now go to Print with Preview and change the Print Space
           to ColorMatch.  
     4.  Print.  Media should be the paper you're using and set
           ink to "Color".  Setting is on "Automatic.  Set your quality
           and print.  

I'd be pleased to hear experiences from this group on how successfully this 
works in your case.

Joe D.

RE: [Digital BW] Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-10 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Joe Davajon [mailto:davajon@...]
>
> Here is the procedure alleged to be a simple way of printing B@W on the
> 2200 as referred to on this site recently.
>
>      1.  Image must be in RGB
>      2.  Go to Image then Adjustments then desaturate to remove
>            possible color tints.
>      3.  Now go to Print with Preview and change the Print Space
>            to ColorMatch.
>      4.  Print.  Media should be the paper you're using and set
>            ink to "Color".  Setting is on "Automatic.  Set your quality
>            and print.
>
> I'd be pleased to hear experiences from this group on how
> successfully this works in your case.

There are two parts to this. First of all, the author is recommending
conversion to B&W by desaturation. This is the minimal way to do the
conversion, and loses all the nice control that is available by using the
channel mixer, a grayscale proof setup, or the layers technique recently
mentioned.

Second of all, the author is recommending setting the print space to
ColorMatch RGB. Since the image is B&W, the color gamut of the profile is
irrelevant, so the only thing that is significant about this is that this
tells Photoshop that the printer has a gamma of 1.8. If this works, then it
means that with the driver set the way he suggests, the printer has a gamma
of 1.8.

However, my 2200 driver has no Automatic setting, in either the Basic or
Advanced mode. What ought to work would be to go into the Advanced mode,
select Color Controls, set Gamma to 1.8, leave Color Mode on Standard, and
leave the sliders at zero. Of course, you could do the same thing by telling
PS that the print space is Adobe RGB and selecting a gamma of 2.2 in the
driver.

None of this is particularly unconventional. However, it assumes that the
printer driver, with Color Controls (if that's what he meant by Automatic)
selected, is accurately represented, at least for B&W, by a simple gamma 1.8
(or 2.2) curve. Maybe it is. But the 2200 also comes with a set of actual
ICC profiles, for each standard paper/ink combo, that probably describe the
printer even more accurately. So while there's no harm in testing anything,
I'd guess that using a real profile (instead of just assuming Colormatch RGB
or Adobe RGB) has a better chance of providing accurate results.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

RE: [Digital BW] Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-10 by Tim Atherton

Just tried it (having found the magazine on the newsstand) - interestingly
the most neutral B&W print from the 2200 so far - slightly metamerisitic (a
very very light magentaish under tungsten) on enhanced matte.


> There are two parts to this. First of all, the author is recommending
> conversion to B&W by desaturation. This is the minimal way to do the
> conversion, and loses all the nice control that is available by using the
> channel mixer, a grayscale proof setup, or the layers technique recently
> mentioned.

No he isn't - he's assuming it's already an B&W/greyscale image, which you
already have as an RGB - I think the desaturation is in order to ensure
there is actually no residual colour tint in the image. Not sure if it's
actually needed though

> Second of all, the author is recommending setting the print space to
> ColorMatch RGB. Since the image is B&W, the color gamut of the profile is
> irrelevant, so the only thing that is significant about this is that this
> tells Photoshop that the printer has a gamma of 1.8. If this
> works, then it
> means that with the driver set the way he suggests, the printer
> has a gamma
> of 1.8.
> However, my 2200 driver has no Automatic setting, in either the Basic or
> Advanced mode.

He's actually using the older driver - in the newer one, just set it as
Colour Management>Colour Controls> standard with your paper settings on he
other side

> What ought to work would be to go into the Advanced mode,
> select Color Controls, set Gamma to 1.8, leave Color Mode on Standard, and
> leave the sliders at zero. Of course, you could do the same thing
> by telling
> PS that the print space is Adobe RGB and selecting a gamma of 2.2 in the
> driver.


However, that doesn't work - or at least it certainly doesn't give as
neutral a print as this - selecting Colourmatch as opposed to Adobe RGB does
seem to give a much more neutral print. I'm guessing that even though the
image is a B&W one, because it's in an RGB colour space, the Colourmatch
space is reducing the gamut of those areas of the space which in Adobe RGB
are rendered by the printer drive as a green or blue tint. Or something like
that...

>
> None of this is particularly unconventional. However, it assumes that the
> printer driver, with Color Controls (if that's what he meant by Automatic)
> selected, is accurately represented, at least for B&W, by a
> simple gamma 1.8
> (or 2.2) curve. Maybe it is. But the 2200 also comes with a set of actual
> ICC profiles, for each standard paper/ink combo, that probably
> describe the
> printer even more accurately. So while there's no harm in testing
> anything,
> I'd guess that using a real profile (instead of just assuming
> Colormatch RGB
> or Adobe RGB) has a better chance of providing accurate results.

Not to date it doesn't - none of them gives anywhere near a decent greyscale
print. The Epson (and most other profiles) are garbage for greyscale
printing. This definitely gives a print that's more neutral than fiddling
around for hours with the Epson greyscale balancer. It's certainly not
perfect, but without a RIP, it's about the best I've seen to date

Tim

RE: [Digital BW] Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-10 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Tim Atherton [mailto:timatherton@...]
>
> > There are two parts to this. First of all, the author is recommending
> > conversion to B&W by desaturation. This is the minimal way to do the
> > conversion, and loses all the nice control that is available by
> using the
> > channel mixer, a grayscale proof setup, or the layers technique recently
> > mentioned.
>
> No he isn't - he's assuming it's already an B&W/greyscale image, which you
> already have as an RGB - I think the desaturation is in order to ensure
> there is actually no residual colour tint in the image. Not sure if it's
> actually needed though

Okay, that makes more sense.

> > What ought to work would be to go into the Advanced mode,
> > select Color Controls, set Gamma to 1.8, leave Color Mode on
> Standard, and
> > leave the sliders at zero. Of course, you could do the same thing
> > by telling
> > PS that the print space is Adobe RGB and selecting a gamma of 2.2 in the
> > driver.
>
> However, that doesn't work - or at least it certainly doesn't give as
> neutral a print as this - selecting Colourmatch as opposed to
> Adobe RGB does
> seem to give a much more neutral print. I'm guessing that even though the
> image is a B&W one, because it's in an RGB colour space, the Colourmatch
> space is reducing the gamut of those areas of the space which in Adobe RGB
> are rendered by the printer drive as a green or blue tint. Or
> something like that...

My guess is that it has more to do with ColorMatch RGB having a white point
of 5000K, as compared to 6600K for Adobe RGB. However, as long as the
rendering intent isn't set to Absolute Colorimetric, I would expect the CM
engine to cancel out this difference. Maybe I don't understand how the CM
engine deals with white points.

> > None of this is particularly unconventional. However, it
> assumes that the
> > printer driver, with Color Controls (if that's what he meant by
> Automatic)
> > selected, is accurately represented, at least for B&W, by a
> > simple gamma 1.8
> > (or 2.2) curve. Maybe it is. But the 2200 also comes with a set
> of actual
> > ICC profiles, for each standard paper/ink combo, that probably
> > describe the
> > printer even more accurately. So while there's no harm in testing
> > anything,
> > I'd guess that using a real profile (instead of just assuming
> > Colormatch RGB
> > or Adobe RGB) has a better chance of providing accurate results.
>
> Not to date it doesn't - none of them gives anywhere near a
> decent greyscale
> print. The Epson (and most other profiles) are garbage for greyscale
> printing. This definitely gives a print that's more neutral than fiddling
> around for hours with the Epson greyscale balancer. It's certainly not
> perfect, but without a RIP, it's about the best I've seen to date

I agree--which is why I bought Eye-One Photo. But if the Auto or CC setting
is better described by the ColorMatch RGB profile than the NCA setting is
described by the specific paper/ink profiles, that would indeed be a lucky
accident. Who knows--maybe it is.

I wonder how much printer-to-printer variation gets into the act. If all
printers that come off the assembly line really are identical, then there's
no excuse for Epson not providing better profiles.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

RE: [Digital BW] Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-10 by Tim Atherton

> I wonder how much printer-to-printer variation gets into the act. If all
> printers that come off the assembly line really are identical,
> then there's
> no excuse for Epson not providing better profiles.

Actually, considering Epson have been in the RIP business for years, there's
really no excuse for them not providing a simple, basic, printer specific
RIP for printing B&W with the 2200 - especially after all the hoopla they
made about its abilities to print greyscale....

tim

RE: [Digital BW] Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-10 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Tim Atherton [mailto:timatherton@...]
>
> Actually, considering Epson have been in the RIP business for
> years, there's
> really no excuse for them not providing a simple, basic, printer specific
> RIP for printing B&W with the 2200 - especially after all the hoopla they
> made about its abilities to print greyscale....

I'd be happy with three or four choices of undercolor removal. Setting this
to max ought to produce a B&W using gray and black, plus the minimum amount
of color needed to tone the print.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-10 by craig

Its funny about Epson...

Im based in Beijing and in the fashionable downtown shopping mall 
of "Oriental Plaza" Epson are opening a display shop and have 
promotional A0 prints of the "Great Wall" everywhere in B&W. Ignoring 
the lack of sharpness in the image, the noticable yellow cast is 
certainly not doing them any favours in promoting their B&W 
capabilities.

regards
Craig / Beijing

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tim Atherton 
<timatherton@t...> wrote:

> Actually, considering Epson have been in the RIP business for 
years, there's
> really no excuse for them not providing a simple, basic, printer 
specific
> RIP for printing B&W with the 2200 - especially after all the 
hoopla they
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> made about its abilities to print greyscale....
> 
> tim

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-10 by Tom Baker

You'd think Epson would catch on.  Almost everyone that has ever seen an official Epson b&w display print talks about how bad it is.  They don't seem to care.  On the other hand, they sell plenty of printers anyway.  So why do they bother?  (Not that we would expect Epson to answer.)
 
Tom Baker

craig <craygc@...> wrote:
Its funny about Epson...

Im based in Beijing and in the fashionable downtown shopping mall 
of "Oriental Plaza" Epson are opening a display shop and have 
promotional A0 prints of the "Great Wall" everywhere in B&W. Ignoring 
the lack of sharpness in the image, the noticable yellow cast is 
certainly not doing them any favours in promoting their B&W 
capabilities.

regards
Craig / Beijing

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tim Atherton 
<timatherton@t...> wrote:

> Actually, considering Epson have been in the RIP business for 
years, there's
> really no excuse for them not providing a simple, basic, printer 
specific
> RIP for printing B&W with the 2200 - especially after all the 
hoopla they
> made about its abilities to print greyscale....
> 
> tim


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Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-10 by Tom Baker

You'd think Epson would catch on.  Almost everyone that has ever seen an official Epson b&w display print talks about how bad it is.  They don't seem to care.  On the other hand, they sell plenty of printers anyway.  So why do they bother?  (Not that we would expect Epson to answer.)
 
Tom Baker

craig <craygc@...> wrote:
Its funny about Epson...

Im based in Beijing and in the fashionable downtown shopping mall 
of "Oriental Plaza" Epson are opening a display shop and have 
promotional A0 prints of the "Great Wall" everywhere in B&W. Ignoring 
the lack of sharpness in the image, the noticable yellow cast is 
certainly not doing them any favours in promoting their B&W 
capabilities.

regards
Craig / Beijing

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tim Atherton 
<timatherton@t...> wrote:

> Actually, considering Epson have been in the RIP business for 
years, there's
> really no excuse for them not providing a simple, basic, printer 
specific
> RIP for printing B&W with the 2200 - especially after all the 
hoopla they
> made about its abilities to print greyscale....
> 
> tim


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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.


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Re: Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-10 by jessupsa

I tried the process after checking it out in the magazine. In my opinion, the print was 
definitely disappointing. It doesn't begin to compare with QTR. The color cast is 
different from the color cast using the standard print space, but it's not neutral to my 
eyes.
Sarah
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Davajon" 
<davajon@s...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Here is the procedure alleged to be a simple way of printing B@W on the 
> 2200 as referred to on this site recently.
>      
>      snip
> I'd be pleased to hear experiences from this group on how successfully this 
> works in your case.
> 
> Joe D.

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-10 by Richard Sintchak

Tuesday, December 9, 2003, 3:19:16 PM, you wrote:

JD> Here is the procedure alleged to be a simple way of printing B@W on the
JD> 2200 as referred to on this site recently.
     
JD>      1.  Image must be in RGB
JD>      2.  Go to Image then Adjustments then desaturate to remove 
JD>            possible color tints.
JD>      3.  Now go to Print with Preview and change the Print Space
JD>            to ColorMatch.  
JD>      4.  Print.  Media should be the paper you're using and set
JD>            ink to "Color".  Setting is on "Automatic.  Set your quality
JD>            and print.  

JD> I'd be pleased to hear experiences from this group on how successfully this
JD> works in your case.

JD> Joe D.

Well, a B&W print on my WinXP system and 2200 printer on Epson EEM
this work flow gave me slight magenta cast under incandescent light and
slight green in daylight. Seems to straddle both "sides" but still not
neutral and with unacceptable casts and metamerism. Seems the solution
would be the same under standard Epson driver work flow: adjust for
losing either cast for a neutral look under one of the lighting
conditions at the cost of the other lighting having a severe cast.
Anyone have better success than me?

-- 
Best regards,
 Richard                            mailto:richard@...

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-10 by chatzebussi

...
> Well, a B&W print on my WinXP system and 2200 printer on Epson EEM
> this work flow gave me slight magenta cast under incandescent light
and
> slight green in daylight. Seems to straddle both "sides" but still
not
> neutral and with unacceptable casts and metamerism. Seems the
solution
> would be the same under standard Epson driver work flow: adjust for
> losing either cast for a neutral look under one of the lighting
> conditions at the cost of the other lighting having a severe cast.
> Anyone have better success than me?
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  Richard                            mailto:richard@c...

Hello all

Sorry to say that it is exactly the same with me

Chatzebussi

Re: Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-11 by sanfo2003

> I tried the process after checking it out in the magazine. In my 
opinion, the print was 
> definitely disappointing. It doesn't begin to compare with QTR.

In my post I described the method as giving the best results so far 
using OEM inks without a RIP, and I still think that's true. A 
comparison to RIP results is apples to oranges. The 2200 by itself 
with OEM (UltraChrome)inks is not real good for BW printing. I 
think this method brings out the best BW that an all "stock" 2200 
setup can give. To get better results one has to go to third party 
specialized BW inks and/or a RIP. A big part of the problem is with 
the OEM inks and their associated metameristic properties.

I'm curious to see if metamerism and color shifts will still be as 
big a problem when Epson "clear-coats" the print in the soon to be 
released R800.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-11 by Richard Sintchak

Wednesday, December 10, 2003, 10:19:27 PM, you wrote:

s> I 
s> think this method brings out the best BW that an all "stock" 2200 
s> setup can give. 

I did not see it as any better than any of the other "workflows"
suggested around the Epson driver with Epson's OEM inks.  What did you
find so "best" about it?  I saw pretty much the same amount of color
casts and metamerism as I see usually.  Which others have your tried?

-- 
Best regards,
 Richard                            mailto:richard@...

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-11 by bernhardschuerlein

> You'd think Epson would catch on.  Almost everyone that has ever 
>seen an official Epson b&w display print talks about how bad it is.  
>They don't seem to care.  On the other hand, they sell plenty of 
>printers anyway.  So why do they bother?  

I don't know about the other countries, but at least here in Germany 
their reputation is not the best. People complain about clogged 
printheads and anyway, most people here are Canon crazy, whether its 
cameras or printers or anything: I guess Canon could go and sell 
bread and people would run to get it and tell everyone that its so 
amazingly good...

For those who want to get superior and archival print quality at a 
reasonable price (third party solutions) Epson is still the only 
choice, and for excellent B&W there are no archival OEM solutions 
anyway, with Epson or other manufacturers.
In Germany I can understand that, because noone or very few people 
are looking for such solutions, so why should they bother? And those 
who do go for Lyson, because they sell their stuff at least in 
Germany, MIS or Piezo dont.

regards Bernie

[Digital BW] Re: Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-12 by sanfo2003

>I did not see it as any better than any of the other "workflows"
>suggested around the Epson driver with Epson's OEM inks.  What did 
>you find so "best" about it?  I saw pretty much the same amount of 
>color casts and metamerism as I see usually.

You saw pretty much the same? Are you sure you're following the 
workflow as outlined? The prints that result from my machine come out 
cool-neutral with good tonality and no color shifts across densities. 
There is some plugging up of shadows around 5%. And yes, there is 
some annoying metamerism but not nearly as much as, say, a color 
managed and profiled paper/printer/ink combo printed conventionally. 
Every method I've tried, with the exception of the Black Only method 
which to my eye is grainy, has color shifts. In other words 80% black 
will have a neutral tone but 50% black will go magenta and then 45% 
will be even more magenta then 30% will go neutral, and so on. This 
method doesn't result in that.

Methods I've tried include Photoshop correction curves, color managed 
profiles, black only, and conventional Epson printing (and probably 
more). I totally agree that specialized inks and/or a RIP will yield 
far superior results, but those require additional purchases and are 
not stock.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Grayscale printing on the Epson 2200

2003-12-12 by Richard Sintchak

Thursday, December 11, 2003, 7:16:34 PM, you wrote:

>>I did not see it as any better than any of the other "workflows"
>>suggested around the Epson driver with Epson's OEM inks.\ufffd What did 
>>you find so "best" about it?\ufffd I saw pretty much the same amount of 
>>color casts and metamerism as I see usually.

s> You saw pretty much the same? Are you sure you're following the 
s> workflow as outlined? The prints that result from my machine come out
s> cool-neutral with good tonality and no color shifts across densities.
s> There is some plugging up of shadows around 5%. And yes, there is 
s> some annoying metamerism but not nearly as much as, say, a color 
s> managed and profiled paper/printer/ink combo printed conventionally.
s> Every method I've tried, with the exception of the Black Only method
s> which to my eye is grainy, has color shifts. In other words 80% black
s> will have a neutral tone but 50% black will go magenta and then 45%
s> will be even more magenta then 30% will go neutral, and so on. This
s> method doesn't result in that.

s> Methods I've tried include Photoshop correction curves, color managed
s> profiles, black only, and conventional Epson printing (and probably
s> more). I totally agree that specialized inks and/or a RIP will yield
s> far superior results, but those require additional purchases and are
s> not stock.

Sandy,

I guess I could agree that the metamerism was not as intense as
usually seen but perhaps I am more sensitive to metamerism than you
may be. Just like you are more sensitive to the dots of BO printing,
while I simply love the BO printing results I get from my 2200 (using
MIS Eboni black that is).

Thanks nonetheless for posting the workflow and your replies.

-- 
Best regards,
 Richard                            mailto:richard@...

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