Digital BW, The Print

This may be a dumb question but I will ask it anyway.  Having read all the discussion 
about RC papers and the potential of Epson Premium Semi-Gloss I decided to do a 
test of my own.  Using Epson UC inks, I printed an image using QTR on EEM using 
Carl's EEM curves 50:50 warm/cool.  I then printed it twice on Prem Semi-Gloss using 
Carl's curves for Oriental FB, again 50:50 - admittedly this is not perfect but I do not 
have curves for Premium Semi-Gloss.   One of the Semi-Gloss prints I sprayed with 
Lyson Print Guard - 3 generous coats with drying time between each.  

What is bronzing, ie what differences should I see?  Here is what I see... The Premium 
Semi-Gloss prints are decidedly _warmer_, if that is the right term, than the EEM print 
which I would consider neutral, ie they exhibit a slight brownish tone (looked at from 
directly above).  I assume this is simply because I have not used a consistent paper/
curve combination although I am surprised that the difference (OFB vs PSG) is as 
significant as it is.  I thought that _bronzing_ is the effect that occurs when the prints 
catch light (ie viewed at an angle) and the image tends to look metallic and begins to 
disappear.  I quite frankly can't see the difference between the sprayed and the 
unsprayed Semi-Gloss prints in this regard.  What should I be looking for?

Finally, I admit the RC images initially pack an optical punch but there is something 
almost more 3 dimensional about the matt one.  Obviously a question of taste but I 
wonder if the so-called _search for the Holy Grail_ is perhaps a little biased by 
historical restrictions.  As you can tell, I have no history in the darkroom and so I am 
much less interested in replicating a historical precedent.

Steve

Steve,

>... One of the Semi-Gloss prints I sprayed with 
>Lyson Print Guard - 3 generous coats with drying time between each.  

>What is bronzing, ie what differences should I see...  
>I thought that _bronzing_ is the effect that occurs when the prints 
>catch light (i.e. viewed at an angle) and the image tends to look 
>metallic and begins to disappear. 

With the UT inks, I see a warm "bronze" reflection in the shadows, peaking
at about 70%.  Also, there is a reduction of the gloss level at 90 and 95%,
but then the 100% is quite glossy.

> I quite frankly can't see the difference between the sprayed and the 
>unsprayed Semi-Gloss prints in this regard. 

A couple factors come to mind.  First, while the PremierArt and Lyson sprays
appear to be the same, there could be minor differences.  The only test
strip that I sprayed with Lyson did not show as much reduction in bronzing
as the PremierArt test strip.  I thought this was just inconsistent
techniques, but maybe not.  I'll try to do a more controlled test when I
have more paper.

Second, of course, the Epson UC inks may be different than the MIS UT inks
in their bronzing.  However, I've heard fans of the semi-matte say how
wonderful it is with UC inks -- except for the bronzing.  So, I think it is
there.

Third, I was showing samples in an area that had windows on 3 sides and lots
of natural light flooding the room.  It was hard to see any differences in
that light.  So lighting may be a factor.  In my office, where I have
fluorescent lights, the bronze nearly fluoresces.  So, maybe the types of
lights are also a factor.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I haven't tried Epson semi-gloss yet, but with Ilford Smooth Pearl and 
similar RC papers I've tried bronzing is very evident.  Tilting the 
paper back and forth under a light you should see a reflective, 
metallic bronze tone at certain angles - particularly in the mid-tones. 
  There could also be some gloss differential between paper white areas 
and ink covered areas.  The brown color is from the PK and LK inks, 
which are difficult to cool down on most RC papers.  You could try 
using a much higher cool/warm ratio, but a profile made specifically 
for this paper would probably be better.

Carl

On Saturday, December 13, 2003, at 06:48  PM, Steve Kale wrote:

> This may be a dumb question but I will ask it anyway.  Having read all 
> the discussion
> about RC papers and the potential of Epson Premium Semi-Gloss I 
> decided to do a
> test of my own.  Using Epson UC inks, I printed an image using QTR on 
> EEM using
> Carl's EEM curves 50:50 warm/cool.  I then printed it twice on Prem 
> Semi-Gloss using
> Carl's curves for Oriental FB, again 50:50 - admittedly this is not 
> perfect but I do not
> have curves for Premium Semi-Gloss.   One of the Semi-Gloss prints I 
> sprayed with
> Lyson Print Guard - 3 generous coats with drying time between each.
>
> What is bronzing, ie what differences should I see?  Here is what I 
> see... The Premium
> Semi-Gloss prints are decidedly _warmer_, if that is the right term, 
> than the EEM print
> which I would consider neutral, ie they exhibit a slight brownish tone 
> (looked at from
> directly above).  I assume this is simply because I have not used a 
> consistent paper/
> curve combination although I am surprised that the difference (OFB vs 
> PSG) is as
> significant as it is.  I thought that _bronzing_ is the effect that 
> occurs when the prints
> catch light (ie viewed at an angle) and the image tends to look 
> metallic and begins to
> disappear.  I quite frankly can't see the difference between the 
> sprayed and the
> unsprayed Semi-Gloss prints in this regard.  What should I be looking 
> for?
>
> Finally, I admit the RC images initially pack an optical punch but 
> there is something
> almost more 3 dimensional about the matt one.  Obviously a question of 
> taste but I
> wonder if the so-called _search for the Holy Grail_ is perhaps a 
> little biased by
> historical restrictions.  As you can tell, I have no history in the 
> darkroom and so I am
> much less interested in replicating a historical precedent.
>
> Steve

Paul

Thanks for this.  I would be very interested in any further Lyson vs
PremierArt testing you do because of the lack of availability of the
PremierArt product here.  I am looking at these prints under halogen
lighting (ceiling recessed spots) - I will check again in daylight in the
tomorrow.  Unfortunately I don¹t yet have the luxury of switching to the UT
inks for a test.  I assume your tests were using the quad UTs rather than
what I think I would initially have to look at ­ the colour UTs.  I am
aiming for an Epson 4000 but can¹t justify two of them ­ and I know that
somehow once I get the bigger size the thought of only being able to print
B&W on the smaller (albeit B&W-dedicated) 2100 won¹t appeal.   I would be
interested if anyone can test the bronzing issue with the UC vs UT (colour
set) inks.

Regards

Steve

From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:45:25 -0800
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] RC Papers, Print Spray and Bronzing:  what am I
looking for?

Steve,

>... One of the Semi-Gloss prints I sprayed with
>Lyson Print Guard - 3 generous coats with drying time between each.

>What is bronzing, ie what differences should I see...
>I thought that _bronzing_ is the effect that occurs when the prints
>catch light (i.e. viewed at an angle) and the image tends to look
>metallic and begins to disappear.

With the UT inks, I see a warm "bronze" reflection in the shadows, peaking
at about 70%.  Also, there is a reduction of the gloss level at 90 and 95%,
but then the 100% is quite glossy.

> I quite frankly can't see the difference between the sprayed and the
>unsprayed Semi-Gloss prints in this regard.

A couple factors come to mind.  First, while the PremierArt and Lyson sprays
appear to be the same, there could be minor differences.  The only test
strip that I sprayed with Lyson did not show as much reduction in bronzing
as the PremierArt test strip.  I thought this was just inconsistent
techniques, but maybe not.  I'll try to do a more controlled test when I
have more paper.

Second, of course, the Epson UC inks may be different than the MIS UT inks
in their bronzing.  However, I've heard fans of the semi-matte say how
wonderful it is with UC inks -- except for the bronzing.  So, I think it is
there.

Third, I was showing samples in an area that had windows on 3 sides and lots
of natural light flooding the room.  It was hard to see any differences in
that light.  So lighting may be a factor.  In my office, where I have
fluorescent lights, the bronze nearly fluoresces.  So, maybe the types of
lights are also a factor.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks.  I was hoping that the spray (in the belief that the Lyson product
could well be the same as the PremierArt product) would act as a cure-all
for RC prints as Paul seemed to be having quite some success with it.  Have
you tried spraying your UC/RC prints with this? Perhaps it is the MIS
Ultratones that are making the real difference...

Steve

From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:54:35 -0500
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] RC Papers, Print Spray and Bronzing:  what am I
looking for?

I haven't tried Epson semi-gloss yet, but with Ilford Smooth Pearl and
similar RC papers I've tried bronzing is very evident.  Tilting the
paper back and forth under a light you should see a reflective,
metallic bronze tone at certain angles - particularly in the mid-tones.
  There could also be some gloss differential between paper white areas
and ink covered areas.  The brown color is from the PK and LK inks,
which are difficult to cool down on most RC papers.  You could try
using a much higher cool/warm ratio, but a profile made specifically
for this paper would probably be better.

Carl




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've used both the UC and UT inks in a 2200 and both inksets seem to  
exhibit about the same level of bronzing on most RC papers I've used.   
The only spray treatment I've tried so far has been Kamar Varnish,  
which does reduce the bronzing, but I didn't like the appearance of the  
surface after spraying.  I'm going to try the epson semi-gloss and  
PremierArt spray next week with the UC inks and also see what it does  
for BO printing on RC papers.  I tried printing just Eboni on some  
PermaJet Oyster 271 (a semi-matte RC) and had some promising results  
after spraying with Kamar.  The dmax went from about 1.51 before  
spraying to 2.17 after spraying with beautiful blacks and a dead  
neutral tonal scale.  Eboni is of course not designed for use with RC  
papers and it will rub off easily without treatment, but after the  
Kamar spray the surface is very durable.  Problem is that it is very  
difficult (at least for me) to get an even coating with the Kamar and  
it is gritty if you don't put enough coats on.

Carl

On Saturday, December 13, 2003, at 08:32  PM, Steve Kale wrote:

> Thanks.  I was hoping that the spray (in the belief that the Lyson  
> product
> could well be the same as the PremierArt product) would act as a  
> cure-all
> for RC prints as Paul seemed to be having quite some success with it.   
> Have
> you tried spraying your UC/RC prints with this? Perhaps it is the MIS
> Ultratones that are making the real difference...
>
> Steve
>
>
> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:54:35 -0500
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] RC Papers, Print Spray and Bronzing:  what  
> am I
> looking for?
>
> I haven't tried Epson semi-gloss yet, but with Ilford Smooth Pearl and
> similar RC papers I've tried bronzing is very evident.  Tilting the
> paper back and forth under a light you should see a reflective,
> metallic bronze tone at certain angles - particularly in the mid-tones.
>   There could also be some gloss differential between paper white areas
> and ink covered areas.  The brown color is from the PK and LK inks,
> which are difficult to cool down on most RC papers.  You could try
> using a much higher cool/warm ratio, but a profile made specifically
> for this paper would probably be better.
>
> Carl
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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I look forward to the results of your testing.  I am surprised that Mitch
describes the bronzing he is getting with Epson semi-gloss and UC inks as
_slight_.  I think I would describe what I am seeing as severe - although I
am worried that the fact that I don't have a dead neutral print to begin
with may be slanting the results.  The Lyson Print Guard significantly
improves the protection.  After 12+ hours of drying the surface of the
unsprayed print is still easily smudged with a rub of the finger whereas the
sprayed one is not.  The surface of each look very similar but feel quite
different - the sprayed print no longer has the _stickiness_ of the original
RC paper.


Steve

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 21:04:48 -0500
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] RC Papers, Print Spray and Bronzing:  what am I
> looking for?
> 
> I've used both the UC and UT inks in a 2200 and both inksets seem to
> exhibit about the same level of bronzing on most RC papers I've used.
> The only spray treatment I've tried so far has been Kamar Varnish,
> which does reduce the bronzing, but I didn't like the appearance of the
> surface after spraying.  I'm going to try the epson semi-gloss and
> PremierArt spray next week with the UC inks and also see what it does
> for BO printing on RC papers.  I tried printing just Eboni on some
> PermaJet Oyster 271 (a semi-matte RC) and had some promising results
> after spraying with Kamar.  The dmax went from about 1.51 before
> spraying to 2.17 after spraying with beautiful blacks and a dead
> neutral tonal scale.  Eboni is of course not designed for use with RC
> papers and it will rub off easily without treatment, but after the
> Kamar spray the surface is very durable.  Problem is that it is very
> difficult (at least for me) to get an even coating with the Kamar and
> it is gritty if you don't put enough coats on.
> 
> Carl
> On Saturday, December 13, 2003, at 08:32  PM, Steve Kale wrote:
> 
>> Thanks.  I was hoping that the spray (in the belief that the Lyson
>> product
>> could well be the same as the PremierArt product) would act as a
>> cure-all
>> for RC prints as Paul seemed to be having quite some success with it.
>> Have
>> you tried spraying your UC/RC prints with this? Perhaps it is the MIS
>> Ultratones that are making the real difference...
>> 
>> Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> I am surprised that Mitch describes the bronzing he is getting with
> Epson semi-gloss and UC inks as _slight_.  I think I would describe 
> what I am seeing as severe [...]

I would label mine severe as well; I would certainly not feel 
comfortable exhibiting or selling the prints I've made on Epson 
professional semi-gloss using UC inks. 

I'm eager to try out the PremiereArt Print Shield spray to see how 
well it ameliorates the problem.  Paul's comments have given me new 
hope that I won't have to give away my Premium Luster and Semi-gloss 
papers after all.

Dan

If PremierArt Print Shield is the same as Lyson Print Guard I suspect you
may be disappointed ­ I for one am now hoping that they are indeed different
products.  It would be nice to have a simple cure for bronzing.  Given Paul
was using UT (quad?) inks rather than UC, I would also like to hear from
anyone using the MIS colour UT inks, Epson Semi Gloss and PremierArt Print
Shield (or Lyson).  Carl is going to do some testing soon.  If it is indeed
a benefit of the UT inks I will be making a very fast switch to an MIS UT
CFS.  

Steve

From: "Dan Honemann" <dan_honemann@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 14:43:42 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] RC Papers, Print Spray and Bronzing:  what am I
looking for?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> I am surprised that Mitch describes the bronzing he is getting with
> Epson semi-gloss and UC inks as _slight_.  I think I would describe
> what I am seeing as severe [...]

I would label mine severe as well; I would certainly not feel
comfortable exhibiting or selling the prints I've made on Epson
professional semi-gloss using UC inks.

I'm eager to try out the PremiereArt Print Shield spray to see how
well it ameliorates the problem.  Paul's comments have given me new
hope that I won't have to give away my Premium Luster and Semi-gloss
papers after all.

Dan





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For: Steve Kale

> I am surprised that Mitch describes the bronzing he is getting with 
> Epson semi-gloss and UC inks as _slight_.  I think I would describe 
> what I am seeing as severe - although I am worried that the fact that 
> I don't have a dead neutral print to begin with may be slanting the 
> results.

I am printing on Epson Semi-Matte, not Semi-Gloss, with 
ImagePrint...and the bronzing is slight but still unacceptable.

--Mitch/Bangkok


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mitch  -
 
I've got a roll of that coming this week.  Before I go to the expense of switching over from matte to photo on the 9600, I'd like to see if someone has actually sprayed SemiMatte/UC Photo Black prints with Print Shield.  Have you done it yet?
 
Tom Baker

Mitch Alland <malland@...> wrote:
For: Steve Kale

> I am surprised that Mitch describes the bronzing he is getting with 
> Epson semi-gloss and UC inks as _slight_.  I think I would describe 
> what I am seeing as severe - although I am worried that the fact that 
> I don't have a dead neutral print to begin with may be slanting the 
> results.

I am printing on Epson Semi-Matte, not Semi-Gloss, with 
ImagePrint...and the bronzing is slight but still unacceptable.

--Mitch/Bangkok


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom

In his earlier post Mitch said:

>>I'm eager to try the type of spray that you are trying but have no idea of
>>whether I can get it here in Bangkok. Do you or anyone else have any
>>idea how I can find out whether it's sold here?

so I suspect the answer in no.  I have sprayed Semi-gloss with the Lyson product and 
seen little improvement.  Hopefully the products are indeed different or the results 
Paul sees are due to the UT inks.

:-)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> Mitch  -
>  
> I've got a roll of that coming this week.  Before I go to the expense of switching 
over from matte to photo on the 9600, I'd like to see if someone has actually sprayed 
SemiMatte/UC Photo Black prints with Print Shield.  Have you done it yet?

>  
> Tom Baker
>

Tom:

>>>I've got a roll of that coming this week.  Before I go to the expense of switching over 
from matte to photo on the 9600, I'd like to see if someone has actually sprayed 
SemiMatte/UC Photo Black prints with Print Shield.  Have you done it yet?<<<

Unfortunately not because I don't know whether or where I can get this spray here in 
Bangkok.

--Mitch/Bangkok

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@m...> wrote:
> I've used both the UC and UT inks in a 2200 and both inksets seem
to  
> exhibit about the same level of bronzing on most RC papers I've
used.   
> The only spray treatment I've tried so far has been Kamar Varnish,  
> which does reduce the bronzing, but I didn't like the appearance of
the  
> surface after spraying.  I'm going to try the epson semi-gloss and  
> PremierArt spray next week with the UC inks and also see what it
does  
> for BO printing on RC papers.  I tried printing just Eboni on some  
> PermaJet Oyster 271 (a semi-matte RC) 
and had some promising results  
> af Problem is that it is very  
> difficult (at least for me) to get an even coating with the Kamar
and  
> it is gritty if you don't put enough coats on.

Carl, 

I would like to try using this for BO printing myself as I have just
received some Perma Jet Oyster 271 and an Eboni Cartridge for my 2200.
 BUT, what paper setting do you use for this? The only options I see
are Enhanced Matte, Radiant Watercolor, and Velvet fine art.  Help!!!!
;-) I'm sorry in advance if this is something obvious. Since I don't
have Kamar Varnish I am going to try the Prismacolor stuff or Winsor
and Newton Gloss Acrylic.

Ol' Don in Broken Arrow

Actually, I cheated and swapped a chip from a PK cartridge onto the 
Eboni cart which gave me access to more paper settings.  I had to do 
this because the Eboni cart was from the UT -2200 inkset and was 
chipped for the LK position.  I used the semi-gloss paper setting, but 
I think it probably doesn't matter too much which setting you use 
because the ink is going to sit on top of the paper anyway.  Just be 
careful handling the print before it is sprayed as the ink will easily 
rub off.

  Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 04:55  PM, elixirs4me@... wrote:

> Carl,
>
> I would like to try using this for BO printing myself as I have just
> received some Perma Jet Oyster 271 and an Eboni Cartridge for my 2200.
>  BUT, what paper setting do you use for this? The only options I see
> are Enhanced Matte, Radiant Watercolor, and Velvet fine art.  Help!!!!
> ;-) I'm sorry in advance if this is something obvious. Since I don't
> have Kamar Varnish I am going to try the Prismacolor stuff or Winsor
> and Newton Gloss Acrylic.
>
> Ol' Don in Broken Arrow