Digital BW, The Print

Hello,
I tried so many ways to obtain a neutral b/w with my new epson, but 
nothing is really good, also with black ink only.
Now, I tried:

1. archival matte with matte black ink:

- grey balancer (printer color managment in photoshop printer 
profile, colors control - epson - in printer driver), quite, not at 
all, neutral in daylight (when I worked the first time with GB of 
course), but with a hard metamerism, prints become magenta under 
commune light of the evening). I really don't like this
changment!
- black ink only (same as source or printer color managment in 
photoshop printer profile), always brownish prints, also with the 
black density sets at +20%. No good!
- epson 2100 archival matte_mk (ICM) and no color adjusyment in 
printer driver, obtaining a greenish tone 
- default ICM epson 2200 or colormatch rgb in PS printer profile and 
no color adjustment or color controls in printer driver, always 
greenish tones.

of course I completely turn off grey balancer every time don't want 
to use it

2. premium semi-gloss paper (epson or ilford) with photo black ink:

- with color inks always greenish tones
-with black ink only, quite good prints, except for a high level of 
bronzing and a very very light greenish dominant (also with BO!)

I read a lot of pages on the web to obtain pure bw prints, but now I 
think it's really impossibile, maybe with a RIP software, but I 
still don't have money for it.
I'm sorry with the other owners of 2100 (2200 in U.S), but 
think I will sell this printer and buy the HP 7960 that have pure BW 
prints.
I'm very tired to waste ink and paper!

do you have other ideas?

greetins and compliments to this interesting group,
Andrea

The only paper I had good luck with BO printing on the Epson 2200 was 
the lighter weight Arches Infinity Smooth paper. Otherwise, I did not 
like BO printing.

I made curves in PS to apply as the final step before printing that 
removed the mossy cast.

I found it easier and more reliable to bite the bullet and buy 
ImagePrint Lite. It works great. Absolutely neutral B&W prints 
(unless you want to add a cast).

Cheers,

Mitch


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "andreamorphine" 
<andreamorphine@y...> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> I tried so many ways to obtain a neutral b/w with my new epson, but 
> nothing is really good, also with black ink only.
> Now, I tried:
> 
> 1. archival matte with matte black ink:
> 
> - grey balancer (printer color managment in photoshop printer 
> profile, colors control - epson - in printer driver), quite, not at 
> all, neutral in daylight (when I worked the first time with GB of 
> course), but with a hard metamerism, prints become magenta under 
> commune light of the evening). I really don't like this
> changment!
> - black ink only (same as source or printer color managment in 
> photoshop printer profile), always brownish prints, also with the 
> black density sets at +20%. No good!
> - epson 2100 archival matte_mk (ICM) and no color adjusyment in 
> printer driver, obtaining a greenish tone 
> - default ICM epson 2200 or colormatch rgb in PS printer profile 
and 
> no color adjustment or color controls in printer driver, always 
> greenish tones.
> 
> of course I completely turn off grey balancer every time don't want 
> to use it
> 
> 2. premium semi-gloss paper (epson or ilford) with photo black ink:
> 
> - with color inks always greenish tones
> -with black ink only, quite good prints, except for a high level of 
> bronzing and a very very light greenish dominant (also with BO!)
> 
> I read a lot of pages on the web to obtain pure bw prints, but now 
I 
> think it's really impossibile, maybe with a RIP software, but I 
> still don't have money for it.
> I'm sorry with the other owners of 2100 (2200 in U.S), but 
> think I will sell this printer and buy the HP 7960 that have pure 
BW 

> prints.
> I'm very tired to waste ink and paper!
> 
> do you have other ideas?
> 
> greetins and compliments to this interesting group,
> Andrea

A 2200 + ImagePrint will give you a near perfect black to gray 
gradient compared to a pretty poor one from my 1160, MIS VM and Roark 
curves... very impressive.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Mitchell" 
<gmitchel850@y...> wrote:
> The only paper I had good luck with BO printing on the Epson 2200 
was 
> the lighter weight Arches Infinity Smooth paper. Otherwise, I did 
not 
> like BO printing.
> 
> I made curves in PS to apply as the final step before printing that 
> removed the mossy cast.
> 
> I found it easier and more reliable to bite the bullet and buy 
> ImagePrint Lite. It works great. Absolutely neutral B&W prints 
> (unless you want to add a cast).
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mitch
> 
> 
> --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "andreamorphine" 
> <andreamorphine@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Hello,
> > I tried so many ways to obtain a neutral b/w with my new epson, 
but 
> > nothing is really good, also with black ink only.
> > Now, I tried:
> > 
> > 1. archival matte with matte black ink:
> > 
> > - grey balancer (printer color managment in photoshop printer 
> > profile, colors control - epson - in printer driver), quite, not 
at 
> > all, neutral in daylight (when I worked the first time with GB of 
> > course), but with a hard metamerism, prints become magenta under 
> > commune light of the evening). I really don't like this
> > changment!
> > - black ink only (same as source or printer color managment in 
> > photoshop printer profile), always brownish prints, also with the 
> > black density sets at +20%. No good!
> > - epson 2100 archival matte_mk (ICM) and no color adjusyment in 
> > printer driver, obtaining a greenish tone 
> > - default ICM epson 2200 or colormatch rgb in PS printer profile 
> and 
> > no color adjustment or color controls in printer driver, always 
> > greenish tones.
> > 
> > of course I completely turn off grey balancer every time don't 
want 
> > to use it
> > 
> > 2. premium semi-gloss paper (epson or ilford) with photo black 
ink:
> > 
> > - with color inks always greenish tones
> > -with black ink only, quite good prints, except for a high level 
of 
> > bronzing and a very very light greenish dominant (also with BO!)
> > 
> > I read a lot of pages on the web to obtain pure bw prints, but 
now 

> I 
> > think it's really impossibile, maybe with a RIP software, but I 
> > still don't have money for it.
> > I'm sorry with the other owners of 2100 (2200 in U.S), but 
> > think I will sell this printer and buy the HP 7960 that have pure 
> BW 
> > prints.
> > I'm very tired to waste ink and paper!
> > 
> > do you have other ideas?
> > 
> > greetins and compliments to this interesting group,
> > Andrea

Hello Andrea--

I'm new to this group as well, but very familiar with your 
experience with the 2200 printing black and white.  I had as 
wretched and awful a time as you did.  I think that you are right to 
stop trying to get an acceptable black and white print from your 
current setup--it really is totally impossible, and a waste of time 
and money.   I got  completely fed up, so now I use the Sundance 
septone inks for the 2200, delivered by a CFS.  It is initially 
expensive to set up, but after that, the ink costs drop about 80% 
compared to using cartridges, and the prints are extremely 
satisfying, tonally rich, and free of metamerism.  If you have any 
questions, let me know and I'll try to help

Cheers,

YS Yoon
Toronto, Canada

In addition to good reports from IP users, I think there may be a few options if you want to stick with OEM color ink. I may need to be corrected, but my small knowledge of QTR and IJC make me think IP's use of K, ltK, ltC, and ltM for mono prints could be duplicated with either of those two less expensive drivers. QTR is free untill Roy wonders where the last year went.
Might be worth checking out if you are on the Mac.
TylerY

> -----Original Message-----
> From: andreamorphine [mailto:andreamorphine@...] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 4:52 AM
<snip>
> I'm sorry with the other owners of 2100 (2200 in U.S), but 
> think I will sell this printer and buy the HP 7960 that have pure BW 
> prints.
>Snip>

Andrea,
     Don't set yourself up for disappointment by hoping the 7960 will
give you neutral prints.  Don't get me wrong, it's a great printer and I
just bought one (actually my second one), and I'll probably use it for
most of my B&W from here on.  But the prints are not neutral.  They do
exhibit some metamerism.  E-mail me privately if you want more
information.

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com

> just bought one (actually my second one), and I'll probably use it for
> most of my B&W from here on.  But the prints are not neutral.  They do
> exhibit some metamerism.

I got a print from the 7960 in one of the exchanges, and under the
fluorescent light on my desk it exhibits strong metamerism, although not
nearly as unpleasant as the metamerism I get with the Ultrachrome inks.
I could also see some slight microbanding, but I'm not sure if this is a
problem with the printer in general.


--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

I've successfully been able to modify the MIS Ultratone Hextone inkset
to work with the 2100 and have three curves that work very well with the
inks (warm, neutral warm, neutral). Unfortunately the inkset is not
supported by MIS, and several people have had problems with the
cartridges they're selling. I've cleaned and refilled old Epson
cartridges instead which has worked perfectly for almost a year now.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

The metamerism is there, it's slight, but it's there.  There is a
slight magenta cast under tungsten and an ever so slight greenish cast
under most fluorescents.  In most daylight, they appear pretty neutral.
I've discussed this at length with people and owners on several message
boards, and looked at sample prints at COMPUSA, Best Buy, and Circuit
City.  I've come to the conclusion that it's there, it's consistent, and
most people don't see it because they are not as critical about it as
me.  In fact, when I pointed it out to my wife, she said that she could
see it only after I pointed it and in comparison to another print.  But
even after pointing it out, she still said she didn't care at all.  It
all made me think, "Geez, why should I care if the people who would be
seeing it don't?"  And the other side of this is that the tonal
gradations are superb, it prints on RC paper with a 73 year tested fade
life, spraying the paper easily makes it waterproof, and there is no
bronzing or gloss differential.  Overall, it's a great print for
commercial applications.
     As for the banding, yes, I've seen that too.  But it's a driver
problem due to oversharpening that HP is well aware of.  It might be
better called a "banding pattern".  They are working on it and will have
a replacement driver update soon.  But the result is that it really
makes prints appear very sharp, and the banding pattern is not visible
(to me at least) without a loupe.  Also, there's little chance of ink
clogging becoming a big and consistent problem since it uses
free-flowing dye ink and the heads are changed with every new ink
cartridge.
     The printer is not without faults, but with it's great tonal
transitions and 73 year archival RC paper printing, it's great for my
"people" work.  I had to face some hard facts this year during the slow
holiday break.  I don't own or plan to buy a medium or large format
camera, and I don't specialize in landscapes or still lifes.  I'm never
going to have negatives or digital files that will print with the beauty
many people achieve with a bigger negative, scanning, and specialized
inks and papers in wide format Epson printers.  My strength is in
people, and my needs are not the same as a fine art approach would
dictate.  It was time I recognized this, moved on and started spending
more time actually taking pictures instead of worrying and waiting about
getting the perfect inkjet printer set-up.

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Staver [mailto:daniel@...] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 3:08 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Good B/W prints with epson 2100 / 
> 2200 not possible? I'll bui an Hp 7960...
<snip>

> I got a print from the 7960 in one of the exchanges, and under the
> fluorescent light on my desk it exhibits strong metamerism, 
> although not
> nearly as unpleasant as the metamerism I get with the 
> Ultrachrome inks.
> I could also see some slight microbanding, but I'm not sure 
> if this is a
> problem with the printer in general.

> The only paper I had good luck with BO printing on the Epson 2200 
was 
> the lighter weight Arches Infinity Smooth paper. Otherwise, I did 
not 
> like BO printing.
> 
> I made curves in PS to apply as the final step before printing 
that 
> removed the mossy cast.
> 
> I found it easier and more reliable to bite the bullet and buy 
> ImagePrint Lite. It works great. Absolutely neutral B&W prints 
> (unless you want to add a cast).

thanks glenn, the curves you made are only for that kind of paper?
I don't know where to find them in Italy...

greetins,
andrea

> Hello Andrea--
> 
> I'm new to this group as well, but very familiar with your 
> experience with the 2200 printing black and white.  I had as 
> wretched and awful a time as you did.  I think that you are right 
to 
> stop trying to get an acceptable black and white print from your 
> current setup--it really is totally impossible, and a waste of 
time 
> and money.   I got  completely fed up, so now I use the Sundance 
> septone inks for the 2200, delivered by a CFS.  It is initially 
> expensive to set up, but after that, the ink costs drop about 80% 
> compared to using cartridges, and the prints are extremely 
> satisfying, tonally rich, and free of metamerism.  If you have any 
> questions, let me know and I'll try to help

thanks for the answer, but at this moment I don't want to spend more 
money with this printer, and waiting for a long time to get septone 
inks from another county (I'm from Italy).
I saw the HP has some cheap printers, like the 7260, that could use 
the no.59 ink that resolve b/w problems...I'm very attracted!
anyway could you link me where you buy the septone inks?

thanks again!

andrea

Hello Andrea--

I bought the Septone inks through inkjetgoodies.com in Utah.
Just to let you know,  the one-time-use Septone cartridges make 
lovely prints when all the nozzles fire, which, unfortunately, is 
practically never.   Bubbles in the cartridges block the nozzles 
frequently.  However, the ink in the CFS cartridges is apparently 
under higher pressure, and bubbles cannot form--I have had 
uniformly perfect nozzle checks for the 3 months I have used the 
CFS.

Cheers,

YS Yoon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "andreamorphine" 
<andreamorphine@y...> wrote:
> 
> > The only paper I had good luck with BO printing on the Epson 2200 
> was 
> > the lighter weight Arches Infinity Smooth paper. Otherwise, I did 
> not 
> > like BO printing.
> > 
> > I made curves in PS to apply as the final step before printing 
> that 
> > removed the mossy cast.
> > 
> > I found it easier and more reliable to bite the bullet and buy 
> > ImagePrint Lite. It works great. Absolutely neutral B&W prints 
> > (unless you want to add a cast).
> 
> thanks glenn, the curves you made are only for that kind of paper?
> I don't know where to find them in Italy...


Wow. My comment was ambiguous.

I meant to say, I had good results with either:

(1) BO printing with lighter weight Arches Infinity Smooth paper

OR

(2) By applying a final curve before printing.

If you find you have a color cast to your B&W images, you can correct 
them with a Curves or color Balance adjustment layer. then you save 
those settings. You can use them on any other image with the same 
paper and ink combination. You wind up with several settings files, 
for different paper/ink combinations. But it does work.

What it will not fix is metamerism. The only way to fix that is to 
get a different printer driver. ImagePrint Lite RIP makes neutral B&W 
prints that do not evidence metamerism.

I just finished a B&W art print that has a colorized element. I am 
anxious to get ImagePrint 6.0 since it will do colorized images 
without metamerism. Currently, the B&W portions of colorized images 
with IP do metamerize, because it uses the color profiles for 
everything. The new version will use the B&W profile for the B&W 
elements and the color profile for the colorized elements so your B&W 
does not metamerize! All done in one pass, too.

Cheers,

Mitch

At 2:18 AM +0000 1/7/04, Glenn Mitchell wrote:
>[snip]
>I meant to say, I had good results with either:
>
>(1) BO printing with lighter weight Arches Infinity Smooth paper
>
>OR
>
>(2) By applying a final curve before printing.
>
>If you find you have a color cast to your B&W images, you can correct
>them with a Curves or color Balance adjustment layer. then you save
>those settings. You can use them on any other image with the same
>paper and ink combination. You wind up with several settings files,
>for different paper/ink combinations. But it does work.
>
>What it will not fix is metamerism. The only way to fix that is to
>get a different printer driver. ImagePrint Lite RIP makes neutral B&W
>prints that do not evidence metamerism.
>[snip]

Roy Harrington's QuadToneRIP (QTR) does too, doesn't it? Isn't that 
the easiest and least expensive solution, at least for someone 
willing to use a Mac?
--
Sam