Digital BW, The Print

I recently discovered (stumbled across) a way to create standard icc 
profiles that can be used for soft-proofing QTR prints in Photoshop.  
I've put a sample soft-proof profile that was created from an icc 
profile for a QTR sepia curve that I use quite often in an archive on 
my filesharing site.  Just drop the proof profile (sepia1.psf) in the 
folder Library>Application Support>Adobe>Color>Proofing and follow the 
illustrated instructions for using the soft-proof in the read-me file 
that is also in the archive.  You don't need to be using or have QTR 
installed to just see how any RGB or grayscale image you have will 
actually look if it were printed with QTR and the sepia curve I'm 
using. The read-me also has instructions for creating the icc profiles 
if you want to make your own.  This can be applied to any inkset/paper 
and probably with quad workflows other than QTR as well.  One of the 
nice things about using standard icc soft-proof profiles is that you 
can work up your image for printing in any mode (full RGB color or 
grayscale) and get a preview of the printed results as you do RGB to 
grayscale conversions, curve adjustments, etc. with the soft-proof 
turned on.

The softproof archive with the profile and tutorial is in the QTR 
Soft-proof folder at:

http://homepage.mac.com/scho/FileSharing2.html


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@m...> wrote:
> I recently discovered (stumbled across) a way to create standard icc 
> profiles that can be used for soft-proofing QTR prints in Photoshop.

snip

Nice work Carl, you got it exactly right. Have you tried going
directly from RGB to gray with the target, rather than through LAB? If
both are the same gamma it may work fine. I did it the LAB way, but am
wondering about the effects of the various methods of getting to gray
to print the target with our various output methods that want a single
channel file.
I've not discovered a way to get i1 photo to accept custom charts,
tried a number of things. If you come across something that works let
us know. Of course ProfileMaker will let you, but at a major cost.
Until then I think you are stuck with single patch reading, the charts
were designed with good color contrast from patch to patch so the
convert to monochrome probably confuses it at some patch borders.
Also, with ColorLab, you could design your own charts with patches in
colors that might be more helpful for accuracy with these particular
printing methods.
Cool,
Tyler

PS- Culbertson surfaces yet again, years later.

Thanks again for your help Tyler.  It was your assistance and tips on 
using MeasureTool and ColorLab that got Roy and I on the right path 
using the Eye-One with QTR for linearization.

I was uncertain about how to convert the target to gray and thought 
that using LAB might be safest to start with (assuming luminance 
wouldn't change), but as you noted direct conversion to gray, keeping 
the same gamma, should also work fine.  Roy also suggested trying 
custom targets and reference files made with ColorLab and if i1Match 
doesn't accept them then perhaps the strip reading can be done in 
MeasureTool which has a provision for reading targets with boundaries 
between the patches without error checking.  I've been able to get 
i1Match to accept the standard target data that was patch read in 
MeasureTool so hopefully it will take strip read data as well.

I went way back into the archives of the lists and some older files on 
the net and re-read some of Dan's groundbreaking work in this area and 
his findings were certainly an inspiration to try this approach.

On Tuesday, January 13, 2004, at 05:27  PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@m...> wrote:
>> I recently discovered (stumbled across) a way to create standard icc
>> profiles that can be used for soft-proofing QTR prints in Photoshop.
>
> snip
>
> Nice work Carl, you got it exactly right. Have you tried going
> directly from RGB to gray with the target, rather than through LAB? If
> both are the same gamma it may work fine. I did it the LAB way, but am
> wondering about the effects of the various methods of getting to gray
> to print the target with our various output methods that want a single
> channel file.
> I've not discovered a way to get i1 photo to accept custom charts,
> tried a number of things. If you come across something that works let
> us know. Of course ProfileMaker will let you, but at a major cost.
> Until then I think you are stuck with single patch reading, the charts
> were designed with good color contrast from patch to patch so the
> convert to monochrome probably confuses it at some patch borders.
> Also, with ColorLab, you could design your own charts with patches in
> colors that might be more helpful for accuracy with these particular
> printing methods.
> Cool,
> Tyler
>
> PS- Culbertson surfaces yet again, years later.

Give yourself some credit Carl, even with Dan's old work few if any
have carried it forward. It takes some creative thinking to come up
with this stuff. Your thought about L values seems right to me as
well, but then there is always that final conversion to gray, and then
WHICH gray? But if your profile is previewing properly to your prints,
that's all that matters and the converions must be valid. I'm in the
process of doing the same thing for StudioPrint here, and this
approach can be used to preview literally any type of printing with
any kind of output system, any of your ink mixes on any paper.
Paper white and ink black are useful as well.
Good to know Match doesn't choke on these values so far from the
expected color, Profiler Pro works as well.
Tyler

I've found a way to strip read the targets.  I used ColorLab to create 
new reference and target files from the original i1 RGB 1.5 reference 
file.  I converted the target tif to LAB-L and then gray (gamma 2.2) as 
before for printing. The new reference file is placed in the reference 
files>printer>eye-one> folder in the ProfileMaker Pro folder so it can 
be accessed by MeasureTool.  The new target tif file has borders around 
the patches and it is easily strip read in MeasureTool.  You need to 
check spectral data in the configuration and then pick the new target 
reference file from the chart pop-up list and specify strips with gaps 
before reading the strips.  The data is saved from MeasureTool as a 
text document and the file is placed in the i1Match measurement 
data>printer folder.  Next, open i1Match, select the radio button "load 
the measured chart" and open the file that was read and saved from 
MeasureTool.  i1Match will then create the profile and it did so 
without errors on my first try.  I've added the new target and 
reference files to the Softproof archive on my filesharing site for 
those that want to try making their own softproof icc profiles with the 
eye-one.

Carl

On Tuesday, January 13, 2004, at 03:15  PM, Carl Schofield wrote:

> I recently discovered (stumbled across) a way to create standard icc
> profiles that can be used for soft-proofing QTR prints in Photoshop.
> I've put a sample soft-proof profile that was created from an icc
> profile for a QTR sepia curve that I use quite often in an archive on
> my filesharing site.  Just drop the proof profile (sepia1.psf) in the
> folder Library>Application Support>Adobe>Color>Proofing and follow the
> illustrated instructions for using the soft-proof in the read-me file
> that is also in the archive.  You don't need to be using or have QTR
> installed to just see how any RGB or grayscale image you have will
> actually look if it were printed with QTR and the sepia curve I'm
> using. The read-me also has instructions for creating the icc profiles
> if you want to make your own.  This can be applied to any inkset/paper
> and probably with quad workflows other than QTR as well.  One of the
> nice things about using standard icc soft-proof profiles is that you
> can work up your image for printing in any mode (full RGB color or
> grayscale) and get a preview of the printed results as you do RGB to
> grayscale conversions, curve adjustments, etc. with the soft-proof
> turned on.
>
> The softproof archive with the profile and tutorial is in the QTR
> Soft-proof folder at:
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/FileSharing2.html

Hi Carl,

I see you've been scratching away at this, too.   I've also been figuring
out how to use this.  I managed to figure out that the reference files
names are hard coded into Eye-One Match so that why we haven't been
able to get it to recognize other Ref files.  So I converted the 21 step
Ref file to an RGB description rather than Grayscale, and just overwrote
the existing i1 RGB 1.5 file (save it first).  This works like a charm.

Just use the ordinary step-21-random.tif file for printing -- in fact I
already had linearized print outs from before.   All you need to do is
run i1Match and scan the strip.  Voila instant soft-proofs and it'll
work for any kind of grayscale output scheme -- QTR, Roark, Piezo.

Roy
www.harrington.com

Here's the new ref file:

Date: 9/8/2003  Time: 18:47
LGOROWLENGTH 01
BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT
SampleName	RGB_R RGB_G RGB_B
END_DATA_FORMAT
BEGIN_DATA
A1	178.5	178.5	178.5
B1	76.5	76.5	76.5
C1	242.25	242.25	242.25
D1	140.25	140.25	140.25
E1	38.25	38.25	38.25
F1	204	204	204
G1	102	102	102
H1	0	0	0
I1	165.75	165.75	165.75
J1	63.75	63.75	63.75
K1	229.5	229.5	229.5
L1	127.5	127.5	127.5
M1	25.5	25.5	25.5
N1	191.25	191.25	191.25
O1	89.25	89.25	89.25
P1	255	255	255
Q1	153	153	153
R1	51	51	51
S1	216.75	216.75	216.75
T1	114.75	114.75	114.75
U1	12.75	12.75	12.75
END_DATA


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@m...> 
wrote:

> I've found a way to strip read the targets.  I used ColorLab to create 
> new reference and target files from the original i1 RGB 1.5 reference 
> file.  I converted the target tif to LAB-L and then gray (gamma 2.2) as 
> before for printing. The new reference file is placed in the reference 
> files>printer>eye-one> folder in the ProfileMaker Pro folder so it can 
> be accessed by MeasureTool.  The new target tif file has borders around 
> the patches and it is easily strip read in MeasureTool.  You need to 
> check spectral data in the configuration and then pick the new target 
> reference file from the chart pop-up list and specify strips with gaps 
> before reading the strips.  The data is saved from MeasureTool as a 
> text document and the file is placed in the i1Match measurement 
> data>printer folder.  Next, open i1Match, select the radio button "load 
> the measured chart" and open the file that was read and saved from 
> MeasureTool.  i1Match will then create the profile and it did so 
> without errors on my first try.  I've added the new target and 
> reference files to the Softproof archive on my filesharing site for 
> those that want to try making their own softproof icc profiles with the 
> eye-one.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Tuesday, January 13, 2004, at 03:15  PM, Carl Schofield wrote:
> 
> > I recently discovered (stumbled across) a way to create standard icc
> > profiles that can be used for soft-proofing QTR prints in Photoshop.
> > I've put a sample soft-proof profile that was created from an icc
> > profile for a QTR sepia curve that I use quite often in an archive on
> > my filesharing site.  Just drop the proof profile (sepia1.psf) in the
> > folder Library>Application Support>Adobe>Color>Proofing and follow the
> > illustrated instructions for using the soft-proof in the read-me file
> > that is also in the archive.  You don't need to be using or have QTR
> > installed to just see how any RGB or grayscale image you have will
> > actually look if it were printed with QTR and the sepia curve I'm
> > using. The read-me also has instructions for creating the icc profiles
> > if you want to make your own.  This can be applied to any inkset/paper
> > and probably with quad workflows other than QTR as well.  One of the
> > nice things about using standard icc soft-proof profiles is that you
> > can work up your image for printing in any mode (full RGB color or
> > grayscale) and get a preview of the printed results as you do RGB to
> > grayscale conversions, curve adjustments, etc. with the soft-proof
> > turned on.
> >
> > The softproof archive with the profile and tutorial is in the QTR
> > Soft-proof folder at:
> >
> > http://homepage.mac.com/scho/FileSharing2.html

Hi Roy,

Terrific!  That really is a time saver.  I also noticed that the ref 
files were hard wired into i1Match and wouldn't accept anything else. 
I'll give your new ref file a try.  Many thanks for working this out.

Carl

On Wednesday, January 14, 2004, at 03:34  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:

>
> Hi Carl,
>
> I see you've been scratching away at this, too.   I've also been 
> figuring
> out how to use this.  I managed to figure out that the reference files
> names are hard coded into Eye-One Match so that why we haven't been
> able to get it to recognize other Ref files.  So I converted the 21 
> step
> Ref file to an RGB description rather than Grayscale, and just 
> overwrote
> the existing i1 RGB 1.5 file (save it first).  This works like a charm.
>
> Just use the ordinary step-21-random.tif file for printing -- in fact I
> already had linearized print outs from before.   All you need to do is
> run i1Match and scan the strip.  Voila instant soft-proofs and it'll
> work for any kind of grayscale output scheme -- QTR, Roark, Piezo.
>
> Roy
> www.harrington.com
>
> Here's the new ref file:
>
> Date: 9/8/2003  Time: 18:47
> LGOROWLENGTH 01
> BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT
> SampleName	RGB_R RGB_G RGB_B
> END_DATA_FORMAT
> BEGIN_DATA
> A1	178.5	178.5	178.5
> B1	76.5	76.5	76.5
> C1	242.25	242.25	242.25
> D1	140.25	140.25	140.25
> E1	38.25	38.25	38.25
> F1	204	204	204
> G1	102	102	102
> H1	0	0	0
> I1	165.75	165.75	165.75
> J1	63.75	63.75	63.75
> K1	229.5	229.5	229.5
> L1	127.5	127.5	127.5
> M1	25.5	25.5	25.5
> N1	191.25	191.25	191.25
> O1	89.25	89.25	89.25
> P1	255	255	255
> Q1	153	153	153
> R1	51	51	51
> S1	216.75	216.75	216.75
> T1	114.75	114.75	114.75
> U1	12.75	12.75	12.75
> END_DATA
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
> <scho@m...>
> wrote:
>> I've found a way to strip read the targets.  I used ColorLab to create
>> new reference and target files from the original i1 RGB 1.5 reference
>> file.  I converted the target tif to LAB-L and then gray (gamma 2.2) 
>> as
>> before for printing. The new reference file is placed in the reference
>> files>printer>eye-one> folder in the ProfileMaker Pro folder so it can
>> be accessed by MeasureTool.  The new target tif file has borders 
>> around
>> the patches and it is easily strip read in MeasureTool.  You need to
>> check spectral data in the configuration and then pick the new target
>> reference file from the chart pop-up list and specify strips with gaps
>> before reading the strips.  The data is saved from MeasureTool as a
>> text document and the file is placed in the i1Match measurement
>> data>printer folder.  Next, open i1Match, select the radio button 
>> "load
>> the measured chart" and open the file that was read and saved from
>> MeasureTool.  i1Match will then create the profile and it did so
>> without errors on my first try.  I've added the new target and
>> reference files to the Softproof archive on my filesharing site for
>> those that want to try making their own softproof icc profiles with 
>> the
>> eye-one.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> On Tuesday, January 13, 2004, at 03:15  PM, Carl Schofield wrote:
>>
>>> I recently discovered (stumbled across) a way to create standard icc
>>> profiles that can be used for soft-proofing QTR prints in Photoshop.
>>> I've put a sample soft-proof profile that was created from an icc
>>> profile for a QTR sepia curve that I use quite often in an archive on
>>> my filesharing site.  Just drop the proof profile (sepia1.psf) in the
>>> folder Library>Application Support>Adobe>Color>Proofing and follow 
>>> the
>>> illustrated instructions for using the soft-proof in the read-me file
>>> that is also in the archive.  You don't need to be using or have QTR
>>> installed to just see how any RGB or grayscale image you have will
>>> actually look if it were printed with QTR and the sepia curve I'm
>>> using. The read-me also has instructions for creating the icc 
>>> profiles
>>> if you want to make your own.  This can be applied to any 
>>> inkset/paper
>>> and probably with quad workflows other than QTR as well.  One of the
>>> nice things about using standard icc soft-proof profiles is that you
>>> can work up your image for printing in any mode (full RGB color or
>>> grayscale) and get a preview of the printed results as you do RGB to
>>> grayscale conversions, curve adjustments, etc. with the soft-proof
>>> turned on.
>>>
>>> The softproof archive with the profile and tutorial is in the QTR
>>> Soft-proof folder at:
>>>
>>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/FileSharing2.html
>
>
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Roy Harrington,
Roy, some months ago, if memory doesn't fail, you were
working on resolving how one can best coat prints. 
I'm curious to know if you are still considering this
issue and whether or not you have been able to deal
with it satisfactorily?  I'm also wondering that if
you are using a Meyer rod are you having a high rate
of success.  If so, are you using a number 30 rod?
Personally, I find the #30 puts on too heavy a coat. 
I tried a #10 and it works beautifully for letter
sized prints but doesn't work well for 13x19 prints. 
Thanks for any consideration.  
Joe D.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Joe Davajon <davajon@s...> 
wrote:
> Roy Harrington,
> Roy, some months ago, if memory doesn't fail, you were
> working on resolving how one can best coat prints. 
> I'm curious to know if you are still considering this
> issue and whether or not you have been able to deal
> with it satisfactorily?  I'm also wondering that if
> you are using a Meyer rod are you having a high rate
> of success.  If so, are you using a number 30 rod?
> Personally, I find the #30 puts on too heavy a coat. 
> I tried a #10 and it works beautifully for letter
> sized prints but doesn't work well for 13x19 prints. 
> Thanks for any consideration.  
> Joe D.

Hi Joe,

No, sorry, it was somebody else.  I think Paul Roark and some
others were doing this.  I followed a lot of the discussion but
couldn't see getting into all the mess.

Roy

Roy- Outstanding! This is probably obvious, but I want to doublecheck
with you. The values below look like RGB numbers, which suprises me a
tad for a profiling reference file, rather than LAB. So RGB values are
what Match wants to see?
Also, can I assume from your work here that I can create my own
targets and ref files as you have done? I'd like more than 21 patches,
I find these profiles don't predict some areas well, like 95 to 100%,
and more samples might help.
You guys are smokin' now!
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington"
<roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> Hi Carl,
> 
> I see you've been scratching away at this, too.   I've also been
figuring
> out how to use this.  I managed to figure out that the reference files
> names are hard coded into Eye-One Match so that why we haven't been
> able to get it to recognize other Ref files.  So I converted the 21 step
> Ref file to an RGB description rather than Grayscale, and just overwrote
> the existing i1 RGB 1.5 file (save it first).  This works like a charm.
> 
> Just use the ordinary step-21-random.tif file for printing -- in fact I
> already had linearized print outs from before.   All you need to do is
> run i1Match and scan the strip.  Voila instant soft-proofs and it'll
> work for any kind of grayscale output scheme -- QTR, Roark, Piezo.
> 
> Roy
> www.harrington.com
> 
> Here's the new ref file:
> 
> Date: 9/8/2003  Time: 18:47
> LGOROWLENGTH 01
> BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT
> SampleName	RGB_R RGB_G RGB_B
> END_DATA_FORMAT
> BEGIN_DATA
> A1	178.5	178.5	178.5
> B1	76.5	76.5	76.5
> C1	242.25	242.25	242.25
> D1	140.25	140.25	140.25
> E1	38.25	38.25	38.25
> F1	204	204	204
> G1	102	102	102
> H1	0	0	0
> I1	165.75	165.75	165.75
> J1	63.75	63.75	63.75
> K1	229.5	229.5	229.5
> L1	127.5	127.5	127.5
> M1	25.5	25.5	25.5
> N1	191.25	191.25	191.25
> O1	89.25	89.25	89.25
> P1	255	255	255
> Q1	153	153	153
> R1	51	51	51
> S1	216.75	216.75	216.75
> T1	114.75	114.75	114.75
> U1	12.75	12.75	12.75
> END_DATA
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<scho@m...> 
> wrote:
> > I've found a way to strip read the targets.  I used ColorLab to
create 
> > new reference and target files from the original i1 RGB 1.5 reference 
> > file.  I converted the target tif to LAB-L and then gray (gamma
2.2) as 
> > before for printing. The new reference file is placed in the
reference 
> > files>printer>eye-one> folder in the ProfileMaker Pro folder so it
can 
> > be accessed by MeasureTool.  The new target tif file has borders
around 
> > the patches and it is easily strip read in MeasureTool.  You need to 
> > check spectral data in the configuration and then pick the new target 
> > reference file from the chart pop-up list and specify strips with
gaps 
> > before reading the strips.  The data is saved from MeasureTool as a 
> > text document and the file is placed in the i1Match measurement 
> > data>printer folder.  Next, open i1Match, select the radio button
"load 
> > the measured chart" and open the file that was read and saved from 
> > MeasureTool.  i1Match will then create the profile and it did so 
> > without errors on my first try.  I've added the new target and 
> > reference files to the Softproof archive on my filesharing site for 
> > those that want to try making their own softproof icc profiles
with the 
> > eye-one.
> > 
> > Carl
> > 
> > On Tuesday, January 13, 2004, at 03:15  PM, Carl Schofield wrote:
> > 
> > > I recently discovered (stumbled across) a way to create standard icc
> > > profiles that can be used for soft-proofing QTR prints in Photoshop.
> > > I've put a sample soft-proof profile that was created from an icc
> > > profile for a QTR sepia curve that I use quite often in an
archive on
> > > my filesharing site.  Just drop the proof profile (sepia1.psf)
in the
> > > folder Library>Application Support>Adobe>Color>Proofing and
follow the
> > > illustrated instructions for using the soft-proof in the read-me
file
> > > that is also in the archive.  You don't need to be using or have QTR
> > > installed to just see how any RGB or grayscale image you have will
> > > actually look if it were printed with QTR and the sepia curve I'm
> > > using. The read-me also has instructions for creating the icc
profiles
> > > if you want to make your own.  This can be applied to any
inkset/paper

> > > and probably with quad workflows other than QTR as well.  One of the
> > > nice things about using standard icc soft-proof profiles is that you
> > > can work up your image for printing in any mode (full RGB color or
> > > grayscale) and get a preview of the printed results as you do RGB to
> > > grayscale conversions, curve adjustments, etc. with the soft-proof
> > > turned on.
> > >
> > > The softproof archive with the profile and tutorial is in the QTR
> > > Soft-proof folder at:
> > >
> > > http://homepage.mac.com/scho/FileSharing2.html

Roy

I would like to try your suggestion and reference file.
Just an update on this thanks.
Were do you get this "Just use the ordinary step-21-random.tif 
file "? This file you rename to "i1 RGB 1.5.tif", print it and take 
the readings with i1Match using your referencefile?

Regards
Soren



> I managed to figure out that the reference files
> names are hard coded into Eye-One Match so that why we haven't been
> able to get it to recognize other Ref files.  So I converted the 
21 step
> Ref file to an RGB description rather than Grayscale, and just 
overwrote
> the existing i1 RGB 1.5 file (save it first).  This works like a 
charm.
> 
> Just use the ordinary step-21-random.tif file for printing -- in 
fact I
> already had linearized print outs from before.   All you need to 
do is
> run i1Match and scan the strip.  Voila instant soft-proofs and 
it'll

> work for any kind of grayscale output scheme -- QTR, Roark, Piezo.
> 
> Roy
> www.harrington.com
> 
> Here's the new ref file:
> 
> Date: 9/8/2003  Time: 18:47
> LGOROWLENGTH 01
> BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT
> SampleName	RGB_R RGB_G RGB_B
> END_DATA_FORMAT
> BEGIN_DATA
> A1	178.5	178.5	178.5
> B1	76.5	76.5	76.5
> C1	242.25	242.25	242.25
> D1	140.25	140.25	140.25
> E1	38.25	38.25	38.25
> F1	204	204	204
> G1	102	102	102
> H1	0	0	0
> I1	165.75	165.75	165.75
> J1	63.75	63.75	63.75
> K1	229.5	229.5	229.5
> L1	127.5	127.5	127.5
> M1	25.5	25.5	25.5
> N1	191.25	191.25	191.25
> O1	89.25	89.25	89.25
> P1	255	255	255
> Q1	153	153	153
> R1	51	51	51
> S1	216.75	216.75	216.75
> T1	114.75	114.75	114.75
> U1	12.75	12.75	12.75
> END_DATA

Attachments enclosed.

Stan

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sören Lindqvist 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 5:31 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New icc based Soft-proof profiles for QTR


  Roy

  I would like to try your suggestion and reference file.
  Just an update on this thanks.
  Were do you get this "Just use the ordinary step-21-random.tif 
  file "? This file you rename to "i1 RGB 1.5.tif", print it and take 
  the readings with i1Match using your referencefile?

  Regards
  Soren



  > I managed to figure out that the reference files
  > names are hard coded into Eye-One Match so that why we haven't been
  > able to get it to recognize other Ref files.  So I converted the 
  21 step
  > Ref file to an RGB description rather than Grayscale, and just 
  overwrote
  > the existing i1 RGB 1.5 file (save it first).  This works like a 
  charm.
  > 
  > Just use the ordinary step-21-random.tif file for printing -- in 
  fact I
  > already had linearized print outs from before.   All you need to 
  do is
  > run i1Match and scan the strip.  Voila instant soft-proofs and 
  it'll
  > work for any kind of grayscale output scheme -- QTR, Roark, Piezo.
  > 
  > Roy
  > www.harrington.com
  > 
  > Here's the new ref file:
  > 
  > Date: 9/8/2003  Time: 18:47
  > LGOROWLENGTH 01
  > BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT
  > SampleName      RGB_R RGB_G RGB_B
  > END_DATA_FORMAT
  > BEGIN_DATA
  > A1      178.5      178.5      178.5
  > B1      76.5      76.5      76.5
  > C1      242.25      242.25      242.25
  > D1      140.25      140.25      140.25
  > E1      38.25      38.25      38.25
  > F1      204      204      204
  > G1      102      102      102
  > H1      0      0      0
  > I1      165.75      165.75      165.75
  > J1      63.75      63.75      63.75
  > K1      229.5      229.5      229.5
  > L1      127.5      127.5      127.5
  > M1      25.5      25.5      25.5
  > N1      191.25      191.25      191.25
  > O1      89.25      89.25      89.25
  > P1      255      255      255
  > Q1      153      153      153
  > R1      51      51      51
  > S1      216.75      216.75      216.75
  > T1      114.75      114.75      114.75
  > U1      12.75      12.75      12.75
  > END_DATA



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I got it, your referncefile is renamed to "i1 RGB 1.5.txt".
What about the step-21-random file?

Regards
Soren

> Roy
> 
> I would like to try your suggestion and reference file.
> Just an update on this thanks.
> Were do you get this "Just use the ordinary step-21-random.tif 
> file "? This file you rename to "i1 RGB 1.5.tif", print it and 
take 
> the readings with i1Match using your referencefile?
> 
> Regards
> Soren
> 
> 
> 
> > I managed to figure out that the reference files
> > names are hard coded into Eye-One Match so that why we haven't 
been
> > able to get it to recognize other Ref files.  So I converted the 
> 21 step
> > Ref file to an RGB description rather than Grayscale, and just 
> overwrote
> > the existing i1 RGB 1.5 file (save it first).  This works like a 
> charm.
> > 
> > Just use the ordinary step-21-random.tif file for printing -- in 
> fact I
> > already had linearized print outs from before.   All you need to 
> do is
> > run i1Match and scan the strip.  Voila instant soft-proofs and 
> it'll
> > work for any kind of grayscale output scheme -- QTR, Roark, 
Piezo.

> > 
> > Roy
> > www.harrington.com
> > 
> > Here's the new ref file:
> > 
> > Date: 9/8/2003  Time: 18:47
> > LGOROWLENGTH 01
> > BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT
> > SampleName	RGB_R RGB_G RGB_B
> > END_DATA_FORMAT
> > BEGIN_DATA
> > A1	178.5	178.5	178.5
> > B1	76.5	76.5	76.5
> > C1	242.25	242.25	242.25
> > D1	140.25	140.25	140.25
> > E1	38.25	38.25	38.25
> > F1	204	204	204
> > G1	102	102	102
> > H1	0	0	0
> > I1	165.75	165.75	165.75
> > J1	63.75	63.75	63.75
> > K1	229.5	229.5	229.5
> > L1	127.5	127.5	127.5
> > M1	25.5	25.5	25.5
> > N1	191.25	191.25	191.25
> > O1	89.25	89.25	89.25
> > P1	255	255	255
> > Q1	153	153	153
> > R1	51	51	51
> > S1	216.75	216.75	216.75
> > T1	114.75	114.75	114.75
> > U1	12.75	12.75	12.75
> > END_DATA

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> Roy- Outstanding! This is probably obvious, but I want to doublecheck
> with you. The values below look like RGB numbers, which suprises me a
> tad for a profiling reference file, rather than LAB. So RGB values are
> what Match wants to see?

Yes, everything is based on RGB values presumably because that's what
most people use.  Under the Eye-Match directory (folder)  there are
TIFF target files -- lots of random color patches.  There's one called
"i1 RGB  1.5.tif"  and under Reference files the file "i1 RGB 1.5.txt" is
a standard text file describing all the RGB values from the tif file.

So instead of these files, I'm using my 21step wedge that was designed
for eye-one reading Step-21-random.tif  in the Eye-One folder.
I had a Ref file for it but in grayscale description instead of RGB.   
I just edited the Ref file into RGB values:
      R = G = B = (100-gray) * 2.55

Fortunately, i1Match is perfectly happy as long as the description
Ref file matches what you actually scan.


> Also, can I assume from your work here that I can create my own
> targets and ref files as you have done? I'd like more than 21 patches,
> I find these profiles don't predict some areas well, like 95 to 100%,
> and more samples might help.

I also have a 51 patch target that'll give you every 2%, I'll can send you
a new RGB Ref file for it.

> You guys are smokin' now!

I hadn't really thought about soft proofing much, except with the eyeball
custom dot gain.  But when Carl brought up the idea and what he
had done, it was a terrific idea.

Roy

> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington"
> <roy@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Carl,
> > 
> > I see you've been scratching away at this, too.   I've also been
> figuring
> > out how to use this.  I managed to figure out that the reference files
> > names are hard coded into Eye-One Match so that why we haven't been
> > able to get it to recognize other Ref files.  So I converted the 21 step
> > Ref file to an RGB description rather than Grayscale, and just overwrote
> > the existing i1 RGB 1.5 file (save it first).  This works like a charm.
> > 
> > Just use the ordinary step-21-random.tif file for printing -- in fact I
> > already had linearized print outs from before.   All you need to do is
> > run i1Match and scan the strip.  Voila instant soft-proofs and it'll
> > work for any kind of grayscale output scheme -- QTR, Roark, Piezo.
> > 
> > Roy
> > www.harrington.com
> > 
> > Here's the new ref file:
> > 
> > Date: 9/8/2003  Time: 18:47
> > LGOROWLENGTH 01
> > BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT
> > SampleName	RGB_R RGB_G RGB_B
> > END_DATA_FORMAT
> > BEGIN_DATA
> > A1	178.5	178.5	178.5
> > B1	76.5	76.5	76.5
> > C1	242.25	242.25	242.25
> > D1	140.25	140.25	140.25
> > E1	38.25	38.25	38.25
> > F1	204	204	204
> > G1	102	102	102
> > H1	0	0	0
> > I1	165.75	165.75	165.75
> > J1	63.75	63.75	63.75
> > K1	229.5	229.5	229.5
> > L1	127.5	127.5	127.5
> > M1	25.5	25.5	25.5
> > N1	191.25	191.25	191.25
> > O1	89.25	89.25	89.25
> > P1	255	255	255
> > Q1	153	153	153
> > R1	51	51	51
> > S1	216.75	216.75	216.75
> > T1	114.75	114.75	114.75
> > U1	12.75	12.75	12.75
> > END_DATA
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@m...> 
> > wrote:
> > > I've found a way to strip read the targets.  I used ColorLab to
> create 
> > > new reference and target files from the original i1 RGB 1.5 reference 
> > > file.  I converted the target tif to LAB-L and then gray (gamma
> 2.2) as 
> > > before for printing. The new reference file is placed in the
> reference 
> > > files>printer>eye-one> folder in the ProfileMaker Pro folder so it
> can 
> > > be accessed by MeasureTool.  The new target tif file has borders
> around 
> > > the patches and it is easily strip read in MeasureTool.  You need to 
> > > check spectral data in the configuration and then pick the new target 
> > > reference file from the chart pop-up list and specify strips with
> gaps 
> > > before reading the strips.  The data is saved from MeasureTool as a 
> > > text document and the file is placed in the i1Match measurement 
> > > data>printer folder.  Next, open i1Match, select the radio button
> "load 
> > > the measured chart" and open the file that was read and saved from 
> > > MeasureTool.  i1Match will then create the profile and it did so 
> > > without errors on my first try.  I've added the new target and 
> > > reference files to the Softproof archive on my filesharing site for 
> > > those that want to try making their own softproof icc profiles
> with the 
> > > eye-one.
> > > 
> > > Carl
> > > 
> > > On Tuesday, January 13, 2004, at 03:15  PM, Carl Schofield wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I recently discovered (stumbled across) a way to create standard icc
> > > > profiles that can be used for soft-proofing QTR prints in Photoshop.
> > > > I've put a sample soft-proof profile that was created from an icc
> > > > profile for a QTR sepia curve that I use quite often in an
> archive on
> > > > my filesharing site.  Just drop the proof profile (sepia1.psf)
> in the
> > > > folder Library>Application Support>Adobe>Color>Proofing and
> follow the
> > > > illustrated instructions for using the soft-proof in the read-me
> file
> > > > that is also in the archive.  You don't need to be using or have QTR
> > > > installed to just see how any RGB or grayscale image you have will
> > > > actually look if it were printed with QTR and the sepia curve I'm
> > > > using. The read-me also has instructions for creating the icc
> profiles
> > > > if you want to make your own.  This can be applied to any
> inkset/paper
> > > > and probably with quad workflows other than QTR as well.  One of the
> > > > nice things about using standard icc soft-proof profiles is that you
> > > > can work up your image for printing in any mode (full RGB color or
> > > > grayscale) and get a preview of the printed results as you do RGB to
> > > > grayscale conversions, curve adjustments, etc. with the soft-proof
> > > > turned on.
> > > >
> > > > The softproof archive with the profile and tutorial is in the QTR
> > > > Soft-proof folder at:
> > > >
> > > > http://homepage.mac.com/scho/FileSharing2.html

Sören,

I guess I was a little cryptic.  In the QuadToneRIP dsitribution there's a
folder CurveDesign/Eye-One that contains target tif files and reference
files.  step-21-random.tif is a 21 patch target, the new Ref file is
just the text I had in the previous post -- just copy and paste into an
plain text file.

I guess this warrants a comprehensive writeup of the technique.

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sören Lindqvist 
<soren.lindqvist@t...> wrote:

> Roy
> 
> I would like to try your suggestion and reference file.
> Just an update on this thanks.
> Were do you get this "Just use the ordinary step-21-random.tif 
> file "? This file you rename to "i1 RGB 1.5.tif", print it and take 
> the readings with i1Match using your referencefile?
> 
> Regards
> Soren
> 
> 
> 
> > I managed to figure out that the reference files
> > names are hard coded into Eye-One Match so that why we haven't been
> > able to get it to recognize other Ref files.  So I converted the 
> 21 step
> > Ref file to an RGB description rather than Grayscale, and just 
> overwrote
> > the existing i1 RGB 1.5 file (save it first).  This works like a 
> charm.
> > 
> > Just use the ordinary step-21-random.tif file for printing -- in 
> fact I
> > already had linearized print outs from before.   All you need to 
> do is
> > run i1Match and scan the strip.  Voila instant soft-proofs and 
> it'll
> > work for any kind of grayscale output scheme -- QTR, Roark, Piezo.
> > 
> > Roy
> > www.harrington.com
> > 
> > Here's the new ref file:
> > 
> > Date: 9/8/2003  Time: 18:47
> > LGOROWLENGTH 01
> > BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT
> > SampleName	RGB_R RGB_G RGB_B
> > END_DATA_FORMAT
> > BEGIN_DATA
> > A1	178.5	178.5	178.5
> > B1	76.5	76.5	76.5
> > C1	242.25	242.25	242.25
> > D1	140.25	140.25	140.25
> > E1	38.25	38.25	38.25
> > F1	204	204	204
> > G1	102	102	102
> > H1	0	0	0
> > I1	165.75	165.75	165.75
> > J1	63.75	63.75	63.75
> > K1	229.5	229.5	229.5
> > L1	127.5	127.5	127.5
> > M1	25.5	25.5	25.5
> > N1	191.25	191.25	191.25
> > O1	89.25	89.25	89.25
> > P1	255	255	255
> > Q1	153	153	153
> > R1	51	51	51
> > S1	216.75	216.75	216.75
> > T1	114.75	114.75	114.75
> > U1	12.75	12.75	12.75
> > END_DATA

Thanks Roy

Would be nice to be able to download thoose files you mentioned (the 
larger one as well 51 patch target) any adress?

I'm using PC, so QuadTone is not working for me.

Regards
Sören


> 
> I guess I was a little cryptic.  In the QuadToneRIP dsitribution 
there's a
> folder CurveDesign/Eye-One that contains target tif files and 
reference
> files.  step-21-random.tif is a 21 patch target, the new Ref file 
is
> just the text I had in the previous post -- just copy and paste 
into an

> plain text file.
> 
> I guess this warrants a comprehensive writeup of the technique.
> 
> Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington"
<roy@h...> wrote:
snip...
> I also have a 51 patch target that'll give you every 2%, I'll can
send you
> a new RGB Ref file for it.

Only if you already have it Roy, don't go to any work. Sounds like
they are easy to make.
Tyler

Roy & Tyler,

The converted ref file seems to be working very well Roy.  I also 
converted the 51 step file to RGB (used ColorLab to do it - just open 
special the ref file and set mode>RGB and it does all of the conversion 
calculation), but I haven't made any critical comparisons between the 
21 step and 51 step yet - step wedges from both compare well to the 
proofs.  This proofing method also works well for BO and compared to 
dot gain proof profiles is better because you also get the paper color 
effects incorporated into the proof and hence you get more accurate 
tonal proofing.  Since my 1270 was also loaded up with UT (original) 
inks I also generated some profiles for Paul's curves (the NCA warm, 
cool, neutral cool, and neutral warm with the RGB workflow) - also got 
good proofs, so this clearly can indeed be used for a variety of 
inksets and printing workflows.

Carl

On Wednesday, January 14, 2004, at 06:34  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> <tyler@t...>
> wrote:
>> Roy- Outstanding! This is probably obvious, but I want to doublecheck
>> with you. The values below look like RGB numbers, which suprises me a
>> tad for a profiling reference file, rather than LAB. So RGB values are
>> what Match wants to see?
>
> Yes, everything is based on RGB values presumably because that's what
> most people use.  Under the Eye-Match directory (folder)  there are
> TIFF target files -- lots of random color patches.  There's one called
> "i1 RGB  1.5.tif"  and under Reference files the file "i1 RGB 1.5.txt" 
> is
> a standard text file describing all the RGB values from the tif file.
>
> So instead of these files, I'm using my 21step wedge that was designed
> for eye-one reading Step-21-random.tif  in the Eye-One folder.
> I had a Ref file for it but in grayscale description instead of RGB.
> I just edited the Ref file into RGB values:
>       R = G = B = (100-gray) * 2.55
>
> Fortunately, i1Match is perfectly happy as long as the description
> Ref file matches what you actually scan.
>
>
>> Also, can I assume from your work here that I can create my own
>> targets and ref files as you have done? I'd like more than 21 patches,
>> I find these profiles don't predict some areas well, like 95 to 100%,
>> and more samples might help.
>
> I also have a 51 patch target that'll give you every 2%, I'll can send 
> you
> a new RGB Ref file for it.
>
>> You guys are smokin' now!
>
> I hadn't really thought about soft proofing much, except with the 
> eyeball
> custom dot gain.  But when Carl brought up the idea and what he
> had done, it was a terrific idea.
>
> Roy
>
>> Tyler
>>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington"
>> <roy@h...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Carl,
>>>
>>> I see you've been scratching away at this, too.   I've also been
>> figuring
>>> out how to use this.  I managed to figure out that the reference 
>>> files
>>> names are hard coded into Eye-One Match so that why we haven't been
>>> able to get it to recognize other Ref files.  So I converted the 21 
>>> step
>>> Ref file to an RGB description rather than Grayscale, and just 
>>> overwrote
>>> the existing i1 RGB 1.5 file (save it first).  This works like a 
>>> charm.
>>>
>>> Just use the ordinary step-21-random.tif file for printing -- in 
>>> fact I
>>> already had linearized print outs from before.   All you need to do 
>>> is
>>> run i1Match and scan the strip.  Voila instant soft-proofs and it'll
>>> work for any kind of grayscale output scheme -- QTR, Roark, Piezo.
>>>
>>> Roy
>>> www.harrington.com
>>>
>>> Here's the new ref file:
>>>
>>> Date: 9/8/2003  Time: 18:47
>>> LGOROWLENGTH 01
>>> BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT
>>> SampleName	RGB_R RGB_G RGB_B
>>> END_DATA_FORMAT
>>> BEGIN_DATA
>>> A1	178.5	178.5	178.5
>>> B1	76.5	76.5	76.5
>>> C1	242.25	242.25	242.25
>>> D1	140.25	140.25	140.25
>>> E1	38.25	38.25	38.25
>>> F1	204	204	204
>>> G1	102	102	102
>>> H1	0	0	0
>>> I1	165.75	165.75	165.75
>>> J1	63.75	63.75	63.75
>>> K1	229.5	229.5	229.5
>>> L1	127.5	127.5	127.5
>>> M1	25.5	25.5	25.5
>>> N1	191.25	191.25	191.25
>>> O1	89.25	89.25	89.25
>>> P1	255	255	255
>>> Q1	153	153	153
>>> R1	51	51	51
>>> S1	216.75	216.75	216.75
>>> T1	114.75	114.75	114.75
>>> U1	12.75	12.75	12.75
>>> END_DATA
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
>> <scho@m...>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I've found a way to strip read the targets.  I used ColorLab to
>> create
>>>> new reference and target files from the original i1 RGB 1.5 
>>>> reference
>>>> file.  I converted the target tif to LAB-L and then gray (gamma
>> 2.2) as
>>>> before for printing. The new reference file is placed in the
>> reference
>>>> files>printer>eye-one> folder in the ProfileMaker Pro folder so it
>> can
>>>> be accessed by MeasureTool.  The new target tif file has borders
>> around
>>>> the patches and it is easily strip read in MeasureTool.  You need to
>>>> check spectral data in the configuration and then pick the new 
>>>> target
>>>> reference file from the chart pop-up list and specify strips with
>> gaps
>>>> before reading the strips.  The data is saved from MeasureTool as a
>>>> text document and the file is placed in the i1Match measurement
>>>> data>printer folder.  Next, open i1Match, select the radio button
>> "load
>>>> the measured chart" and open the file that was read and saved from
>>>> MeasureTool.  i1Match will then create the profile and it did so
>>>> without errors on my first try.  I've added the new target and
>>>> reference files to the Softproof archive on my filesharing site for
>>>> those that want to try making their own softproof icc profiles
>> with the
>>>> eye-one.
>>>>
>>>> Carl
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, January 13, 2004, at 03:15  PM, Carl Schofield wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I recently discovered (stumbled across) a way to create standard 
>>>>> icc
>>>>> profiles that can be used for soft-proofing QTR prints in 
>>>>> Photoshop.
>>>>> I've put a sample soft-proof profile that was created from an icc
>>>>> profile for a QTR sepia curve that I use quite often in an
>> archive on
>>>>> my filesharing site.  Just drop the proof profile (sepia1.psf)
>> in the
>>>>> folder Library>Application Support>Adobe>Color>Proofing and
>> follow the
>>>>> illustrated instructions for using the soft-proof in the read-me
>> file
>>>>> that is also in the archive.  You don't need to be using or have 
>>>>> QTR
>>>>> installed to just see how any RGB or grayscale image you have will
>>>>> actually look if it were printed with QTR and the sepia curve I'm
>>>>> using. The read-me also has instructions for creating the icc
>> profiles
>>>>> if you want to make your own.  This can be applied to any
>> inkset/paper
>>>>> and probably with quad workflows other than QTR as well.  One of 
>>>>> the
>>>>> nice things about using standard icc soft-proof profiles is that 
>>>>> you
>>>>> can work up your image for printing in any mode (full RGB color or
>>>>> grayscale) and get a preview of the printed results as you do RGB 
>>>>> to
>>>>> grayscale conversions, curve adjustments, etc. with the soft-proof
>>>>> turned on.
>>>>>
>>>>> The softproof archive with the profile and tutorial is in the QTR
>>>>> Soft-proof folder at:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/FileSharing2.html
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
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> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
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> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
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Hi All,

I've done a short write up with all the needed files and information.
Download from here.

http://harrington.com/SoftProofing.sit

I've done this on a Mac but there's no reason this shouldn't work just
as well on Windows -- locations as probably different.

Roy
www.harrington.com

snip:  Roy wrote:
No, sorry, it was somebody else.\ufffd I think Paul Roark
and some others were doing this.\ufffd I followed a lot of
the discussion but couldn't see getting into all the
mess.

Thanks for a quick and considerate reply!
Joe D.

Roy & Carl,

Thanks for the outstanding work!

Now that you've figured out how to make i1 Match 2.0 read the gray strips, I'm 
wondering if we can use it for linearization. It should be possible since i1 
Match allows you to save the measurement data to a text file.  I don't know if 
MeasureTool outputs measurements in a different format, so the calc-density script 
might need to be modified to work with i1 Match files.

Just a thought.

thanks,

- z.

Guys this stuff is really exciting!  It drives right back to the points I
was grappling with a while ago, namely that if one can read a step wedge of
QTR output for a known input that it ought to be possible for an ICC profile
to be made to do the mapping.  Unfortunately I do not have the technical
background ­ you guys clearly do!   You can¹t be far away from a full
integrated ICC profile approach workflow BUT with the added benefit of being
able to manipulate the driver for a range of factors and then regenerate the
ICC profile.  QTR must be but a few steps away from moving from a Same As
Source workflow to using the generated ICC profile for the QTR driver, ink,
paper, printer combination a la the colour workflow many are used to.  I
guess it just depends which side of the fence you want to put the
translation.   I look forward to going through this stuff in more detail.  I
am still trying to fully get my head around the earlier partitioning
work....so little time!

From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:26:43 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New icc based Soft-proof profiles for QTR


Hi All,

I've done a short write up with all the needed files and information.
Download from here.

http://harrington.com/SoftProofing.sit

I've done this on a Mac but there's no reason this shouldn't work just
as well on Windows -- locations as probably different.

Roy
www.harrington.com




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
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the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
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YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I guess it could be done, but i1Match outputs spectral data and the 
math (at least to me) is a bit more involved for extracting density.  
The equations and a spreadsheet for doing this are on the following web 
site:
http://www.brucelindbloom.com/

Carl

On Thursday, January 15, 2004, at 01:06  AM, zhi-da zhong wrote:

> Roy & Carl,
>
> Thanks for the outstanding work!
>
> Now that you've figured out how to make i1 Match 2.0 read the gray 
> strips, I'm
> wondering if we can use it for linearization. It should be possible 
> since i1
> Match allows you to save the measurement data to a text file.  I don't 
> know if
> MeasureTool outputs measurements in a different format, so the 
> calc-density script
> might need to be modified to work with i1 Match files.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> thanks,
>
> - z.
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
>
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>
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>
>

Hi Steve,

Soft proofing and ICC printing are pretty different things.  What we've don=
e
lately for soft proofing is just simulating the "look" of a print in RGB th=
at
you can see on a calibrated monitor.  It has no knowledge, notion or
whatever of how the ink got onto the paper.  In a sense that's the beauty
of it -- you can simulate the look of any method of printing.

ICC printing is a whole different thing.  An ICC profile can't do an arbitr=
ary
mapping to N inks because the output has to feed into an RGB Epson driver.
You can certainly accomplish a lot going through an RGB representation --
that's what the Roark workflows do and the new ICC stuff from Cone does.
But the more you modify the inks from what the Epson driver thinks is
in there, the more work it is to "fool" (i.e. design RGB curves) the driver=
 into doing
what you want.  The QTR approach is to have a driver that doesn't "think"
anything about the inks at all.  The thinking is all done a curve design
time in an intelligent way based on a description of the actual ink you are=
 using.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@=
b...> 
wrote:
> Guys this stuff is really exciting!  It drives right back to the points I=

> was grappling with a while ago, namely that if one can read a step wedge =
of
> QTR output for a known input that it ought to be possible for an ICC prof=
ile
> to be made to do the mapping.  Unfortunately I do not have the technical
> background ­ you guys clearly do!   You can¹t be far away from a full
> integrated ICC profile approach workflow BUT with the added benefit of be=
ing
> able to manipulate the driver for a range of factors and then regenerate =
the
> ICC profile.  QTR must be but a few steps away from moving from a Same As=

> Source workflow to using the generated ICC profile for the QTR driver, in=
k,
> paper, printer combination a la the colour workflow many are used to.  I
> guess it just depends which side of the fence you want to put the
> translation.   I look forward to going through this stuff in more detail.=
  I
> am still trying to fully get my head around the earlier partitioning
> work....so little time!
> 
> 
> From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:26:43 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New icc based Soft-proof profiles for QTR
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I've done a short write up with all the needed files and information.
> Download from here.
> 
> http://harrington.com/SoftProofing.sit
> 
> I've done this on a Mac but there's no reason this shouldn't work just
> as well on Windows -- locations as probably different.
> 
> Roy
> www.harrington.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources a=
s
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this sam=
e
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to kee=
p
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from=

> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner =
and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:=

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE 
TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF 
THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILIT=
Y
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO=
 
OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
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Yes, the spectral data would be a pain to deal with.  The MeasureTool
does a perfectly adequate job and I think its a easier customize i.e.
pick reference files at will.

Roy 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@m...> 
wrote:
> I guess it could be done, but i1Match outputs spectral data and the 
> math (at least to me) is a bit more involved for extracting density.  
> The equations and a spreadsheet for doing this are on the following web 
> site:
> http://www.brucelindbloom.com/
> 
> Carl
> On Thursday, January 15, 2004, at 01:06  AM, zhi-da zhong wrote:
> 
> > Roy & Carl,
> >
> > Thanks for the outstanding work!
> >
> > Now that you've figured out how to make i1 Match 2.0 read the gray 
> > strips, I'm
> > wondering if we can use it for linearization. It should be possible 
> > since i1
> > Match allows you to save the measurement data to a text file.  I don't 
> > know if
> > MeasureTool outputs measurements in a different format, so the 
> > calc-density script
> > might need to be modified to work with i1 Match files.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > - z.
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> > keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> > the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> > removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> > Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
> > Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE 
"OWNER" 

> > AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> > LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> > LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> > YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> > RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> > PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> >
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> >
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> >  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

Excellent.
Thanks Roy,
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington"
<roy@h...> wrote:

> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I've done a short write up with all the needed files and information.
> Download from here.
> 
> http://harrington.com/SoftProofing.sit
> 
> I've done this on a Mac but there's no reason this shouldn't work just
> as well on Windows -- locations as probably different.
> 
> Roy
> www.harrington.com

snip:
=What we've done lately for soft proofing is just simulating the "look" of a
print in RGB that
=you can see on a calibrated monitor.  It has no knowledge, notion or
=whatever of how the ink got onto the paper.  In a sense that's the beauty
=of it -- you can simulate the look of any method of printing.

Ok I guess I am not fully understanding this.  Your ICC profile maps the
image from Gray Gamma 2.2 into the gray space of the particular QTR setup
and then visually displays the results of this mapping on the screen (when
soft proofing).  When doing the proofing (and forgive me if this is in the
stuff I have not had the chance to look at yet) which space are you in?
Still Gray Gamma 2.2? Or does the doc have to be converted to RGB?

In order to create this ICC profile you have determined how a known set of
inputs get rendered by the particular QTR setup.  (The full gray spectrum is
presumably derived from an interpolation of these measured points.)  The
soft proofing feature of PS uses this mapping and an understanding of the
profiled monitor¹s display characteristics to visually represent the final
output.

=ICC printing is a whole different thing.  An ICC profile can't do an
arbitrary
=mapping to N inks because the output has to feed into an RGB Epson driver.

In my layman¹s view of QTR ­ and I am stating this so that you can correct
this if I am way off base ­ is that it does two things.  Firstly it takes
control of the individual print heads and defines how they are used to drive
a gray scale spectrum (rather than using the Epson formula for determining a
gray scale).  BTW, can you help me understand linearization a bit better?
Specifically I think I understand what¹s going on with the ink limits and
you have indicated that there is a mathematical function that then smoothes
these choices.  What is it that linearization adds over and above this
mathematical smoothing?

Secondly it takes each pixel value coming in and determines where on the ink
curve it sits, ie how pixel x should be rendered.  Presumably this is a very
straightforward mapping.  The problem has been that there is no consistency
between how a screen renders the individual gray pixel values and how QTR
renders them.  Isn¹t this the conventional colour matching problem?  (Albeit
in a simpler space.)  The more I think about this I find myself thinking in
circles.  I guess if I can soft proof why fuss with the backend. But then I
can¹t see how this differs from the conventional colour problem which
requires a profile to soft proof and the use of the same profile for
conversion at print.  Why don¹t we tag the file going to print with this
mapping function, either letting PS or QTR do the mapping, a la the two
different methods for colour printing?

The reason why I am asking about linearization is because this is the point
where we first measure a step wedge.  Adopting this new soft proofing we do
so twice.  Once for linearization and then secondly for a soft proof
profile.  In the colour analogy (and I think of B&W as simply a very very
narrow colour space) I would do so once only and this would then be used for
both soft proofing and to define how colour or shade of gray x is mapped for
the printer so that WYSIWYG.

I don¹t see the Epson or any other driver that differently.  Somehow it has
a formula for driving the print heads to produce ³colour² x.  But pixel
value x may correspond to a different shade of gray by the printer than what
is displayed on screen and so we use an ICC profile to shift these so that x
on screen is the same as x on paper.  This mapping can either be done by the
driver or by PS before getting to the driver.

So, I guess I am wondering if an ICC profile constructed as you have done
can be used to simplify the front end curve design process by using it to
first map things to the display space for soft proofing and then mapping
things into the QTR space....perhaps an unlinearized one.

Sorry for the ramble but just trying to understand this better.....

Steve




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@=
b...> 
wrote:
> snip:
> =What we've done lately for soft proofing is just simulating the "look" o=
f a
> print in RGB that
> =you can see on a calibrated monitor.  It has no knowledge, notion or
> =whatever of how the ink got onto the paper.  In a sense that's the beaut=
y
> =of it -- you can simulate the look of any method of printing.
> 
> Ok I guess I am not fully understanding this.  Your ICC profile maps the
> image from Gray Gamma 2.2 into the gray space of the particular QTR setup=

> and then visually displays the results of this mapping on the screen (whe=
n
> soft proofing).  When doing the proofing (and forgive me if this is in th=
e
> stuff I have not had the chance to look at yet) which space are you in?
> Still Gray Gamma 2.2? Or does the doc have to be converted to RGB?

For SoftProofing you don't actually convert your file at all, but what is s=
ent to
the display does go through profile conversion.  So the file should be in
Gray Gamma 2.2 the entire time.  Ordinarily each gray pixel is converted 
to RGB where R=G=B=gray, and sent to the display where some profile
is applied so you actually get a gray output i.e. gray input =>> gray outpu=
t.
When proofing an ICC profile is inserted in the middle that will alter the
RGB values so you see the correct colors. 

> 
> In order to create this ICC profile you have determined how a known set o=
f
> inputs get rendered by the particular QTR setup.  (The full gray spectrum=
 is
> presumably derived from an interpolation of these measured points.)  The
> soft proofing feature of PS uses this mapping and an understanding of the=

> profiled monitor¹s display characteristics to visually represent the fina=
l
> output.

I think it's worth an example here.  Say, without a profile your printer pr=
ints 
too warm.  You create a printer profile that basically says "add more blue"=
.
I.e. it take file RGB values and ups the blue component.   

Now take that profile and use it for proofing.  You already have a calibrat=
ed
monitor so gray shows as gray.  When you proof with that printer profile,
the profile is inserted in the middle and reversed.  So "add blue" becomes
"subtract blue" and what you see on the screen is a warm image -- the
same that came out of the printer.

> 
> =ICC printing is a whole different thing.  An ICC profile can't do an
> arbitrary
> =mapping to N inks because the output has to feed into an RGB Epson drive=
r.
> 
> In my layman¹s view of QTR ­ and I am stating this so that you can correc=
t
> this if I am way off base ­ is that it does two things.  Firstly it takes=

> control of the individual print heads and defines how they are used to dr=
ive
> a gray scale spectrum (rather than using the Epson formula for determinin=
g a
> gray scale).  BTW, can you help me understand linearization a bit better?=

> Specifically I think I understand what¹s going on with the ink limits and=

> you have indicated that there is a mathematical function that then smooth=
es
> these choices.  What is it that linearization adds over and above this
> mathematical smoothing?

What I mean by smooth is just that all the values are reasonably continuous=
,
no big jumps and also that there are no down turns.  Linearization starts
with the smooth gradient and puts the gray values in the correct spot.  So
50%K in the file makes 50% gray on the output.  It works on the 21 step
values.  Its just a tonal correction curve -- in PS if your image is too da=
rk
you go into Levels or Curves and make a correction curve.  Same thing.

> 
> Secondly it takes each pixel value coming in and determines where on the =
ink
> curve it sits, ie how pixel x should be rendered.  Presumably this is a v=
ery
> straightforward mapping.  The problem has been that there is no consisten=
cy
> between how a screen renders the individual gray pixel values and how QTR=

> renders them.  Isn¹t this the conventional colour matching problem?  (Alb=
eit
> in a simpler space.)  The more I think about this I find myself thinking =
in
> circles.  I guess if I can soft proof why fuss with the backend. But then=
 I
> can¹t see how this differs from the conventional colour problem which
> requires a profile to soft proof and the use of the same profile for
> conversion at print.  Why don¹t we tag the file going to print with this
> mapping function, either letting PS or QTR do the mapping, a la the two
> different methods for colour printing?

You do have a bunch of circles here.  I think the break in the circle is th=
at
the ICC profile that can tell you how to display sepia on a screen has no
information whatsoever about how to print sepia on a printer with 
arbitrary inks.

> 
> The reason why I am asking about linearization is because this is the poi=
nt
> where we first measure a step wedge.  Adopting this new soft proofing we =
do
> so twice.  Once for linearization and then secondly for a soft proof
> profile.  In the colour analogy (and I think of B&W as simply a very very=

> narrow colour space) I would do so once only and this would then be used =
for
> both soft proofing and to define how colour or shade of gray x is mapped =
for
> the printer so that WYSIWYG.

Before linearization you measure the wedge in order to create a linearizati=
on
curve -- this is like making a ICC profile that you will print with.
The second measuring takes place after linearization has been done, you
now want to measure and proof how the B&W printing really works.

> 
> I don¹t see the Epson or any other driver that differently.  Somehow it h=
as
> a formula for driving the print heads to produce ³colour² x.  But pixel
> value x may correspond to a different shade of gray by the printer than w=
hat
> is displayed on screen and so we use an ICC profile to shift these so tha=
t x
> on screen is the same as x on paper.  This mapping can either be done by =
the
> driver or by PS before getting to the driver.

It still boils down to the issue that ICC profiles and Epson drivers look a=
t
the world as colors represented in RGB.  With RGB more B means more
blue, etc, etc.  How can that come to grips with a sepia colored ink in
some slot?

> 
> So, I guess I am wondering if an ICC profile constructed as you have done=

> can be used to simplify the front end curve design process by using it to=

> first map things to the display space for soft proofing and then mapping
> things into the QTR space....perhaps an unlinearized one.
> 
> Sorry for the ramble but just trying to understand this better.....
> 
> Steve

It's not intuitive, I'm still trying to understand a lot of it.  For me its=

an iterative process of seeing what works, figuring out how its possible,
and deducing how it works.

Roy

Roy ­ thanks a lot.  There is a lot for me to think about here but I am
afraid it is now going to be the end of next week before I can get back into
it fully.  I must admit I have not yet made it into the Sepia world and am
thinking about this purely from the perspective of my 2100 loaded with
conventional UC inks and trying to get a B&W image that matches what I see
on the screen.  In particular, I was thinking of the warm curves where only
two inks are used K and LK.   Your points re a Sepia toner have made me take
a step back for further thought.   What of this hypothetical case: I load my
printer with two shades of brown ink ­ dark brown in the K position and
light brown in the LK position. Presumably QTR will faithfully print my grey
scale image in shades of brown brown (with a nicely linearized curve which I
forgot is linearized only with density values rather than RGB
measurements....).  Now if you I were to do an ICC profile according to your
instructions I could preview the image in its printed state.  But if I did
not want a brown image but rather a grey image then everything would be out
of gamut because there is no combination of brown that can make black (for
example).   A conventional use of ICC profiles (a la the colour world) would
show this.  I guess this is where the gap in the circle is with my earlier
thinking and I understand your points ­ it¹s not that I started with a brown
image and wanted to check how it would rendered in the printer¹s brown
space.  Presumably, though, it has some interesting eventual practicality
for a workflow which stays in RGB.  If one could profile the full colour
space capable of a particular printer and ink setup ­ be it just capable of
pure dead neutral shades of grey, warm shades of grey, or one much more
complex that introduces another element(s) of colour tint via a toner(s) ­
then one could work in RBG, introduce a tint or not, and manipulate the
image in RBG to increase or decrease the tint with the knowledge that
WYSIWYG.  

So two last questions for now if you will permit me.    In the current setup
described by Carl and yourself, if I wish to produce a sepia-toned image,
can I alter and preview real time the amount of sepia that will be produced?
I suspect that all I can see is a version of the grey image sepia-toned
given one ink/curve setup and that if I want to see a more-sepia version I
would have to construct and apply another ICC profile for a different
toner/ink mix.  In a simpler case, if I can preview it  with the warm-EEM
curve or the cool-EEM curve but if I want to see it with 50:50 then
presumably another ICC profile must be produced.....The last question:  in
order to see the sepia version doesn¹t my workspace have to be a colour one
or is this taken care of automatically by PS when I proof?

Cheers 

Steve





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@=
b...> 
wrote:
> Roy ­ thanks a lot.  There is a lot for me to think about here but I am
> afraid it is now going to be the end of next week before I can get back i=
nto
> it fully.  I must admit I have not yet made it into the Sepia world and a=
m
> thinking about this purely from the perspective of my 2100 loaded with
> conventional UC inks and trying to get a B&W image that matches what I se=
e
> on the screen.  In particular, I was thinking of the warm curves where on=
ly
> two inks are used K and LK.   Your points re a Sepia toner have made me t=
ake
> a step back for further thought.   What of this hypothetical case: I load=
 my
> printer with two shades of brown ink ­ dark brown in the K position and
> light brown in the LK position. Presumably QTR will faithfully print my g=
rey
> scale image in shades of brown brown (with a nicely linearized curve whic=
h I
> forgot is linearized only with density values rather than RGB
> measurements....).  Now if you I were to do an ICC profile according to y=
our
> instructions I could preview the image in its printed state.  But if I di=
d
> not want a brown image but rather a grey image then everything would be o=
ut
> of gamut because there is no combination of brown that can make black (fo=
r
> example).   A conventional use of ICC profiles (a la the colour world) wo=
uld
> show this.  I guess this is where the gap in the circle is with my earlie=
r
> thinking and I understand your points ­ it¹s not that I started with a br=
own
> image and wanted to check how it would rendered in the printer¹s brown
> space.  Presumably, though, it has some interesting eventual practicality=

> for a workflow which stays in RGB.  If one could profile the full colour
> space capable of a particular printer and ink setup ­ be it just capable =
of
> pure dead neutral shades of grey, warm shades of grey, or one much more
> complex that introduces another element(s) of colour tint via a toner(s) =
­
> then one could work in RBG, introduce a tint or not, and manipulate the
> image in RBG to increase or decrease the tint with the knowledge that
> WYSIWYG.  
> 
> So two last questions for now if you will permit me.    In the current se=
tup
> described by Carl and yourself, if I wish to produce a sepia-toned image,=

> can I alter and preview real time the amount of sepia that will be produc=
ed?

If you already have a way to produce a sepia image -- then and only then
it's possible to have a ICC proof to preview what you'll get.  But that ICC=

profile plays no role and can't help you actually print that tone.
I guess this is the main difference with color.  With color you also use th=
e
same ICC profile to help you get the print.   The reason it works for color=

is that both the display and the print driver take RGB values and those RGB=

values do influence the color of the print.

> I suspect that all I can see is a version of the grey image sepia-toned
> given one ink/curve setup and that if I want to see a more-sepia version =
I
> would have to construct and apply another ICC profile for a different
> toner/ink mix.  In a simpler case, if I can preview it  with the warm-EEM=

> curve or the cool-EEM curve but if I want to see it with 50:50 then
> presumably another ICC profile must be produced.....The last question:  i=
n
> order to see the sepia version doesn¹t my workspace have to be a colour o=
ne
> or is this taken care of automatically by PS when I proof?

PS takes care of it all.   The 50/50 blend is a feature of QTR that has no
counterpart in ICC profiles, so yes you'd have to print out a 50/50 wedge a=
nd
create a proof profile for it.

Actually the blend issue is an interesting topic and this may actually help=

in understanding profile usage.

It's a little work but you can make two layers -- one from each profile --
and vary the opacity of the top layer to simulate QTR blending.   You 
can't have two profiles in one file so you need to do the effect of each
profile and get back to a common profile.

1) you should have settings: gray gamma 2.2 and Adobe RGB
2) take Grayscale and Duplicate it, conver to RGB and duplicate again.
    -- now you have two Adobe RGB files with gray image.
3) take one RGB file and Assign to Profile:  ICC Profile 1 (warm) and
then Convert to Profile: Adobe RGB  -- Relative Colorimetric and Black Poin=
t set.
4) take the other and Assign ICC Profile 2 (cold) and Convert to Adobe RGB =
too
5) now Select All, Copy one image, and Paste onto second.

You now have two layers and vary the opacity.  Also look at the RGB
values of each layer separately and combined.

If you follow all the changes -- number wise (RGB values) and color
wise on the display, it may help see what goes on behind the scene.

Roy

> 
> Cheers 
> 
> Steve
>

Roy,

Thanks for the info on simulating QTR blending.  I just tried it and 
compared the simulated blend to an icc soft-proof profile of a QTR 
blend and they were reasonably close in appearance.  Here is a screen 
grab (Adobe RGB tagged) of an RGB simulation of a 50% sepia and 50% 
warm profile blend (made as you described below) on the right and the 
original gray image on the left with an active icc soft-proof profile 
of the same 50:50 blend.
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/comparison.jpg
If one didn't want to make icc profiles for a lot of blends, then this 
would be an easy way to get close with a simulation from just two 
profiles.  Should be possible to make an action to do the simulation 
quickly.

Carl
On Thursday, January 15, 2004, at 08:27  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
snip..

> Actually the blend issue is an interesting topic and this may actually 
> help=
>
> in understanding profile usage.
>
> It's a little work but you can make two layers -- one from each 
> profile --
> and vary the opacity of the top layer to simulate QTR blending.   You
> can't have two profiles in one file so you need to do the effect of 
> each
> profile and get back to a common profile.
>
> 1) you should have settings: gray gamma 2.2 and Adobe RGB
> 2) take Grayscale and Duplicate it, conver to RGB and duplicate again.
>     -- now you have two Adobe RGB files with gray image.
> 3) take one RGB file and Assign to Profile:  ICC Profile 1 (warm) and
> then Convert to Profile: Adobe RGB  -- Relative Colorimetric and Black 
> Poin=
> t set.
> 4) take the other and Assign ICC Profile 2 (cold) and Convert to Adobe 
> RGB =
> too
> 5) now Select All, Copy one image, and Paste onto second.
>
> You now have two layers and vary the opacity.  Also look at the RGB
> values of each layer separately and combined.
>
> If you follow all the changes -- number wise (RGB values) and color
> wise on the display, it may help see what goes on behind the scene.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nice, Carl.  I think there's probably an issue about how accurate ink blending
really is i.e. is the 50% point of a 50/50 blend exactly the average of the two?

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@m...> 
wrote:

> Roy,
> 
> Thanks for the info on simulating QTR blending.  I just tried it and 
> compared the simulated blend to an icc soft-proof profile of a QTR 
> blend and they were reasonably close in appearance.  Here is a screen 
> grab (Adobe RGB tagged) of an RGB simulation of a 50% sepia and 50% 
> warm profile blend (made as you described below) on the right and the 
> original gray image on the left with an active icc soft-proof profile 
> of the same 50:50 blend.
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/comparison.jpg
> If one didn't want to make icc profiles for a lot of blends, then this 
> would be an easy way to get close with a simulation from just two 
> profiles.  Should be possible to make an action to do the simulation 
> quickly.
> 
> Carl
> On Thursday, January 15, 2004, at 08:27  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
> snip..
> 
> > Actually the blend issue is an interesting topic and this may actually 
> > help=
> >
> > in understanding profile usage.
> >
> > It's a little work but you can make two layers -- one from each 
> > profile --
> > and vary the opacity of the top layer to simulate QTR blending.   You
> > can't have two profiles in one file so you need to do the effect of 
> > each
> > profile and get back to a common profile.
> >
> > 1) you should have settings: gray gamma 2.2 and Adobe RGB
> > 2) take Grayscale and Duplicate it, conver to RGB and duplicate again.
> >     -- now you have two Adobe RGB files with gray image.
> > 3) take one RGB file and Assign to Profile:  ICC Profile 1 (warm) and
> > then Convert to Profile: Adobe RGB  -- Relative Colorimetric and Black 
> > Poin=
> > t set.
> > 4) take the other and Assign ICC Profile 2 (cold) and Convert to Adobe 
> > RGB =
> > too
> > 5) now Select All, Copy one image, and Paste onto second.
> >
> > You now have two layers and vary the opacity.  Also look at the RGB
> > values of each layer separately and combined.
> >
> > If you follow all the changes -- number wise (RGB values) and color
> > wise on the display, it may help see what goes on behind the scene.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The nicest preview would be a direct coupling of the tone slider
in the QTR driver with a warm<.>cold representation in the image
window. Must be possible to add to one of the Linux appliations
but will be difficult in any other setup like PS + Gimp-print.

Ernst

Hello Roy

This is my first introduction to the group, as I joined it when 
someone posted a reference to this posting on the Colormanagement 
group in answer to a question I had put.

We have a fineart and photographic printing and giclee reproduction 
business and have been in this business for over three years now. In 
the past year we have been also printing B&W for photographers.

I have downloaded the files and am looking forward to testing this 
out. I am running a Colorspan printer with four blacks, and wanted 
just such a profile for myself to use in soft proofing the images I 
am about to send to the printer.

The differences I can see here are that I am working with ARGB files 
(converted from the scanner profile) as I scan the B&W negs in RGB 
16 bit. I do not convert to greyscale, but send the files to the 
printer in RGB. The RIP handles them this way best, and I then use 
the profile for the media I am using, in 4 black inks in the RIP. 
This profile is a proprietary one for the RIP and can't be used to 
soft-proof in PS.

Would it give the same results if I convert the target files from 
greyscale 2.2 Gamma to ARGB 1998 before sending them to the RIP to 
be printed?

I also am using Gretag Macbeth Profilemaker Pro 4.1.5 with the Eye 
One. I presume I can use this to generate the profile in the same 
way, using your instructions?

If so, when converting to the ARGB profile, should I print one file 
in each of the two rendering intents (perceptual and relative) to 
generate a profile for each of the two possibilities of conversion 
for the files I send out?

Best regards,

Ellie Kennard
Innovative Imaging Studio
http://www.iistudio.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy 
Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I've done a short write up with all the needed files and 
information.
> Download from here.
> 
> http://harrington.com/SoftProofing.sit
> 
> I've done this on a Mac but there's no reason this shouldn't work 
just

> as well on Windows -- locations as probably different.
> 
> Roy
> www.harrington.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colorspanmam" <Ellie@=
I...> wrote:
..
> The differences I can see here are that I am working with ARGB files 
> (converted from the scanner profile) as I scan the B&W negs in RGB 
> 16 bit. I do not convert to greyscale, but send the files to the 
> printer in RGB.
...
I'm not Roy, but here's an opinion. I'd just make normal RGB profiles with =
your software using a supplied RGB target. Treat it as though you would one =
of your RGB scans, send it to the printer as you normally would. Let the RIP=
 do what you normally would, converting to the apropriate proprietory media =
profile etc..
If the target file comes up in Photoshop uintagged, you might want to assig=
n (don't convert) it with whatever space your files are normally in when sen=
t to the RIP. That way the RIP will "convert from" in the same manner as a n=
ormal image file would.
Believe me, it'll work. Regarding intents, you don't need to worry about it=
 as the proper use of "preserve color numbers for previewing makes it irrele=
vant. If you do in fact pick between different intents in the RIP for differ=
ent images, then yes you will have to profile them separately.
Hope that helps.
Tylerÿ

Hi Ellie,

I'm wondering if the RGB file you send to the printer is basically gray
where R=G=B or at least close.   Or do the 3 RGB channels separately
control different inks to significantly control the density.

The main "new" thing was to use the RGB profiling that i1Match
already does to a Grayscale.  The reference file is actually still an
RGB definition but only values with R=G=B are used.  When the idea
first came up,  we actually used the ordinary RGB targets but I think
that had two difficulties.  First was how to drive a real grayscale print
method with an RGB target file.  Converting to Lab and keeping L
worked pretty well but its not exactly the same thing.  The other
problem was that the Eye-One reader scans patches that must vary
enough for the read to recognize transitions.  Reducing the target and
reference to just 21 gray values solved both issues.

So if your RGB files are essentially gray you should be able to just
convert the targets to RGB and print, and do the same proofing that
is described.

However, if your RGB files somehow encode different inks I would
think you might have to go back to the regular RGB references and
target -- just use i1Match as normal.  The difficulty will probably be
reading the patches, although you can do it without scanning.
The other issue is how well the i1Match software can deal with
colors other than real RGB.

I suspect you'll need to do various experiments and see what works
and how well.

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colorspanmam" <Ellie@I...> 
wrote:

> Hello Roy
> 
> This is my first introduction to the group, as I joined it when 
> someone posted a reference to this posting on the Colormanagement 
> group in answer to a question I had put.
> 
> We have a fineart and photographic printing and giclee reproduction 
> business and have been in this business for over three years now. In 
> the past year we have been also printing B&W for photographers.
> 
> I have downloaded the files and am looking forward to testing this 
> out. I am running a Colorspan printer with four blacks, and wanted 
> just such a profile for myself to use in soft proofing the images I 
> am about to send to the printer.
> 
> The differences I can see here are that I am working with ARGB files 
> (converted from the scanner profile) as I scan the B&W negs in RGB 
> 16 bit. I do not convert to greyscale, but send the files to the 
> printer in RGB. The RIP handles them this way best, and I then use 
> the profile for the media I am using, in 4 black inks in the RIP. 
> This profile is a proprietary one for the RIP and can't be used to 
> soft-proof in PS.
> 
> Would it give the same results if I convert the target files from 
> greyscale 2.2 Gamma to ARGB 1998 before sending them to the RIP to 
> be printed?
> 
> I also am using Gretag Macbeth Profilemaker Pro 4.1.5 with the Eye 
> One. I presume I can use this to generate the profile in the same 
> way, using your instructions?
> 
> If so, when converting to the ARGB profile, should I print one file 
> in each of the two rendering intents (perceptual and relative) to 
> generate a profile for each of the two possibilities of conversion 
> for the files I send out?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Ellie Kennard
> Innovative Imaging Studio
> http://www.iistudio.com
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy 
> Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > I've done a short write up with all the needed files and 
> information.
> > Download from here.
> > 
> > http://harrington.com/SoftProofing.sit
> > 
> > I've done this on a Mac but there's no reason this shouldn't work 
> just
> > as well on Windows -- locations as probably different.
> > 
> > Roy
> > www.harrington.com

Hi Roy,

Thanks for the reply.

THe file that I get from a scanned BW negative have RGB values that 
don't usually vary by more than about 10, and usually much less. 
When I do the two hue/sat adjustment layers trick to desaturate etc, 
the values are pretty well R=G=B.

I will try the conversion and see what I get. If that doesn't work, 
I'll print the usual target on that ink combi and try to work it 
that way.

Many thanks,

Ellie

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy 
Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> Hi Ellie,
> 
> I'm wondering if the RGB file you send to the printer is basically 
gray
> where R=G=B or at least close.   Or do the 3 RGB channels 
separately
> control different inks to significantly control the density.
> 
> The main "new" thing was to use the RGB profiling that i1Match
> already does to a Grayscale.  The reference file is actually still 
an
> RGB definition but only values with R=G=B are used.  When the idea
> first came up,  we actually used the ordinary RGB targets but I 
think
> that had two difficulties.  First was how to drive a real 
grayscale print
> method with an RGB target file.  Converting to Lab and keeping L
> worked pretty well but its not exactly the same thing.  The other
> problem was that the Eye-One reader scans patches that must vary
> enough for the read to recognize transitions.  Reducing the target 
and
> reference to just 21 gray values solved both issues.
> 
> So if your RGB files are essentially gray you should be able to 
just
> convert the targets to RGB and print, and do the same proofing that
> is described.
> 
> However, if your RGB files somehow encode different inks I would
> think you might have to go back to the regular RGB references and
> target -- just use i1Match as normal.  The difficulty will 
probably be

> reading the patches, although you can do it without scanning.
> The other issue is how well the i1Match software can deal with
> colors other than real RGB.
> 
> I suspect you'll need to do various experiments and see what works
> and how well.
> 
> Roy
>

Thanks for the reply Tyler,

I will try to make the profile from the converted file first, as it 
might be difficult for the eye one to read the patches on the 
ordinary target. I will try that one next, though, if the first 
method doesn't give me the desired results. I will just give it a 
try with the Profilemaker Pro software as I don't have Eye One 
Match. It should work the same, at least I hope so.

Thanks also for the info on the rendering intents. I do not change 
that at the RIP end.

Best regards,

Ellie

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> ...
> I'm not Roy, but here's an opinion. I'd just make normal RGB 
profiles with =
> your software using a supplied RGB target. Treat it as though you 
would one =
> of your RGB scans, send it to the printer as you normally would. 
Let the RIP=
>  do what you normally would, converting to the apropriate 
proprietory media =
> profile etc..
> If the target file comes up in Photoshop uintagged, you might want 
to assig=
> n (don't convert) it with whatever space your files are normally 
in when sen=
> t to the RIP. That way the RIP will "convert from" in the same 
manner as a n=
> ormal image file would.
> Believe me, it'll work. Regarding intents, you don't need to worry 
about it=
>  as the proper use of "preserve color numbers for previewing makes 
it irrele=
> vant. If you do in fact pick between different intents in the RIP 
for differ=

> ent images, then yes you will have to profile them separately.
> Hope that helps.
> Tylerÿ

Hi Ellie,

I suspect it'll work just fine then.  Use the file in my download and
just convert the gray .tif to RGB.  And as Tyler mentioned if you want
to proof multiple rendering intents, then you need a separate proof
profile for each one.

Let us know if it works satisfactorily.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colorspanmam" <Ellie@I...> 
wrote:

> Hi Roy,
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> THe file that I get from a scanned BW negative have RGB values that 
> don't usually vary by more than about 10, and usually much less. 
> When I do the two hue/sat adjustment layers trick to desaturate etc, 
> the values are pretty well R=G=B.
> 
> I will try the conversion and see what I get. If that doesn't work, 
> I'll print the usual target on that ink combi and try to work it 
> that way.
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> Ellie
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy 
> Harrington" <roy@h...> wrote:
> > Hi Ellie,
> > 
> > I'm wondering if the RGB file you send to the printer is basically 
> gray
> > where R=G=B or at least close.   Or do the 3 RGB channels 
> separately
> > control different inks to significantly control the density.
> > 
> > The main "new" thing was to use the RGB profiling that i1Match
> > already does to a Grayscale.  The reference file is actually still 
> an
> > RGB definition but only values with R=G=B are used.  When the idea
> > first came up,  we actually used the ordinary RGB targets but I 
> think
> > that had two difficulties.  First was how to drive a real 
> grayscale print
> > method with an RGB target file.  Converting to Lab and keeping L
> > worked pretty well but its not exactly the same thing.  The other
> > problem was that the Eye-One reader scans patches that must vary
> > enough for the read to recognize transitions.  Reducing the target 
> and
> > reference to just 21 gray values solved both issues.
> > 
> > So if your RGB files are essentially gray you should be able to 
> just
> > convert the targets to RGB and print, and do the same proofing that
> > is described.
> > 
> > However, if your RGB files somehow encode different inks I would
> > think you might have to go back to the regular RGB references and
> > target -- just use i1Match as normal.  The difficulty will 
> probably be
> > reading the patches, although you can do it without scanning.
> > The other issue is how well the i1Match software can deal with
> > colors other than real RGB.
> > 
> > I suspect you'll need to do various experiments and see what works
> > and how well.
> > 
> > Roy
> >

Ellie, as Roy noted you may have better luck measuring his chart. He
did a great job of organizing the patches so that you can strip
measure "without gaps". With your software you shouldn't have to
rename his text file either, making things a bit easier. Just drag his
text file into the ProfileMaker Pro x.x.x/Reference
Files/Printer/EyeOne folder. A note of caution, these conversions must
be done carefully as the software is assuming specific RGB values were
sent to the printer. Make sure you convert the gray chart to an RGB
space of the same gamma, and then assign, don't convert, the chart to
whatever space you normally send to the RIP. ProfileMakerPro and
EyeOne Match supposedly use the same algorythms, so it should work fine.

Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colorspanmam"
<Ellie@I...> wrote:

> Thanks for the reply Tyler,
> 
> I will try to make the profile from the converted file first, as it 
> might be difficult for the eye one to read the patches on the 
> ordinary target. I will try that one next, though, if the first 
> method doesn't give me the desired results. I will just give it a 
> try with the Profilemaker Pro software as I don't have Eye One 
> Match. It should work the same, at least I hope so.
> 
> Thanks also for the info on the rendering intents. I do not change 
> that at the RIP end.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Ellie
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > ...
> > I'm not Roy, but here's an opinion. I'd just make normal RGB 
> profiles with =
> > your software using a supplied RGB target. Treat it as though you 
> would one =
> > of your RGB scans, send it to the printer as you normally would. 
> Let the RIP=
> >  do what you normally would, converting to the apropriate 
> proprietory media =
> > profile etc..
> > If the target file comes up in Photoshop uintagged, you might want 
> to assig=
> > n (don't convert) it with whatever space your files are normally 
> in when sen=
> > t to the RIP. That way the RIP will "convert from" in the same 
> manner as a n=
> > ormal image file would.
> > Believe me, it'll work. Regarding intents, you don't need to worry 
> about it=
> >  as the proper use of "preserve color numbers for previewing makes 
> it irrele=
> > vant. If you do in fact pick between different intents in the RIP 
> for differ=
> > ent images, then yes you will have to profile them separately.
> > Hope that helps.
> > Tylerÿ

Thanks again Tyler,

I may have done this wrong then... I converted to the ARGB 1998 
colour space, and I don't know if that is also 2.2 gamma. What would 
be a similar gamma?

Also, 'assigning' a profile, is that the thing to do?

Regards,

Ellie

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
...snipped...
A note of caution, these conversions must
> be done carefully as the software is assuming specific RGB values 
were
> sent to the printer. Make sure you convert the gray chart to an RGB
> space of the same gamma, and then assign, don't convert, the chart 
to
> whatever space you normally send to the RIP. ProfileMakerPro and
> EyeOne Match supposedly use the same algorythms, so it should work 
fine.

> From: colorspanmam [mailto:Ellie@...]
> 
> I may have done this wrong then... I converted to the ARGB 1998 
> colour space, and I don't know if that is also 2.2 gamma. What would 
> be a similar gamma?

Adobe RGB is gamma 2.2. sRGB is close to 2.2, but visibly different.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. 
DeRocco" <pderocco@i...> wrote:

> Adobe RGB is gamma 2.2. sRGB is close to 2.2, but visibly 
different.

Fine then. As I send to the RIP in that, there should be no problem.
Thanks.

Regards,

Ellie

ARGB is gamma 2.2, so I think you did it right. If that is what you
normally send to the RIP then no further assigning is necessary.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "colorspanmam"
<Ellie@I...> wrote:

> Thanks again Tyler,
> 
> I may have done this wrong then... I converted to the ARGB 1998 
> colour space, and I don't know if that is also 2.2 gamma. What would 
> be a similar gamma?
> 
> Also, 'assigning' a profile, is that the thing to do?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ellie
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> <tyler@t...> wrote:
> ...snipped...
> A note of caution, these conversions must
> > be done carefully as the software is assuming specific RGB values 
> were
> > sent to the printer. Make sure you convert the gray chart to an RGB
> > space of the same gamma, and then assign, don't convert, the chart 
> to
> > whatever space you normally send to the RIP. ProfileMakerPro and
> > EyeOne Match supposedly use the same algorythms, so it should work 
> fine.

Thank you so much everyone for your posting on this subject and for 
answering my questions.

I made the profile and it works perfectly. It gives an excellent 
idea of how the print will look. I work in colour with a fully 
colour-managed system, and felt really at a disadvantage in not 
being able to judge the BW printing. Now I am happy.

On the other hand, I have not been able to receive any of the 
messages from the list, only reading them on the Yahoo list online. 
I have done different things, including finally going on digest, in 
the hopes that at least that will arrive. We will see tomorrow.

Many thanks again and all the best,

Ellie

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:

> ARGB is gamma 2.2, so I think you did it right. If that is what you
> normally send to the RIP then no further assigning is necessary.
> Tyler

I have used the procedure and files provided by Roy Harrington for 
icc based soft-proofing of B&W.  The soft proofs are acurate for 
images that are coming from ARGB, converted to gray, assigned gamma 
2.2 and sent to ImagePrint.

I would like to have the same soft-proofing capabilities for gamma 
1.8.  ImagePrint does a really nice job with G1.8 images.  The G1.8 
soft-proofing profile I made with the Eye-One and the same 
target/file do not provide accurate proofing.

What do I need to do to make a soft-proof profile for G1.8 source?  
Do I have to do something to the target or the .txt Match is looking 
at?

When starting with color images in ARGB space (G2.2) should I convert 
to another color space with gamma 1.8 such as Apple RGB before going 
through B&W conversion process?  Convert to G1.8 after processing or 
just tag the image G1.8?  I'm a little confused here.

Thanks,

Eric

Hi Eric,

I haven't tried any gamma 1.8 workflows but I think this is what you need to do.

You need to get everything into gamma 1.8 spaces.
Assign Profile ... Target-21.tif file to Gamma 1.8   (not Convert to Profile).
I'd switch the Color Settings ... as well to gamma 1.8 and Apple RGB or
some other gamma 1.8 color space.  I don't think this is critical but if any
conversions get done they are in the correct gamma.

Now print the Target through ImagePrint and follow the same profile
creation method.  This profile ought to be useful for gamma 1.8 files.

As far as converting color images to grayscale 1.8, whenever you Convert
to a different gamma space you change the data values.  Whereas Assigning
just changes the space name not the data.  If you are going to be editing
in the new gamma 1.8 space based on the softproofing I don't think it
matters.  I'd try to get it into the right space while still in 16bit if possible.

(BTW, doesn't ImagePrint have any softproofing capability?).

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "deepblue7600" 
<ebdesign@n...> wrote:

> I have used the procedure and files provided by Roy Harrington for 
> icc based soft-proofing of B&W.  The soft proofs are acurate for 
> images that are coming from ARGB, converted to gray, assigned gamma 
> 2.2 and sent to ImagePrint.
> 
> I would like to have the same soft-proofing capabilities for gamma 
> 1.8.  ImagePrint does a really nice job with G1.8 images.  The G1.8 
> soft-proofing profile I made with the Eye-One and the same 
> target/file do not provide accurate proofing.
> 
> What do I need to do to make a soft-proof profile for G1.8 source?  
> Do I have to do something to the target or the .txt Match is looking 
> at?
> 
> When starting with color images in ARGB space (G2.2) should I convert 
> to another color space with gamma 1.8 such as Apple RGB before going 
> through B&W conversion process?  Convert to G1.8 after processing or 
> just tag the image G1.8?  I'm a little confused here.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Eric

Thanks for your help and all the work you've done to share your experience.

From your description of what you think should be done for a gamma 1.8 workflow, it seems that what I've done should have worked.  I tagged the target G1.8 and ran it through ImagePrint.  I did use the 51 patch target instead of the 21 patch.  I will try the 21 patch in case Eye-One measurement error caused non-linearities.

I will let you know if this worked.

ImagePrint does have a reasonably accurate soft proof for 8 bit images (Hi-rez view) in the layout window.  But that doesn't help when editing the image in PhotoShop.  Other than the tint picker for B&W mode, you don't want to use any of the correction tools in IP, they suck.

Thanks,

Eric

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Roy Harrington 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 6:58 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New icc based Soft-proof profiles for QTR



  Hi Eric,

  I haven't tried any gamma 1.8 workflows but I think this is what you need to do.

  You need to get everything into gamma 1.8 spaces.
  Assign Profile ... Target-21.tif file to Gamma 1.8   (not Convert to Profile).
  I'd switch the Color Settings ... as well to gamma 1.8 and Apple RGB or
  some other gamma 1.8 color space.  I don't think this is critical but if any
  conversions get done they are in the correct gamma.

  Now print the Target through ImagePrint and follow the same profile
  creation method.  This profile ought to be useful for gamma 1.8 files.

  As far as converting color images to grayscale 1.8, whenever you Convert
  to a different gamma space you change the data values.  Whereas Assigning
  just changes the space name not the data.  If you are going to be editing
  in the new gamma 1.8 space based on the softproofing I don't think it
  matters.  I'd try to get it into the right space while still in 16bit if possible.

  (BTW, doesn't ImagePrint have any softproofing capability?).

  Roy


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "deepblue7600" 
  <ebdesign@n...> wrote:
  > I have used the procedure and files provided by Roy Harrington for 
  > icc based soft-proofing of B&W.  The soft proofs are acurate for 
  > images that are coming from ARGB, converted to gray, assigned gamma 
  > 2.2 and sent to ImagePrint.
  > 
  > I would like to have the same soft-proofing capabilities for gamma 
  > 1.8.  ImagePrint does a really nice job with G1.8 images.  The G1.8 
  > soft-proofing profile I made with the Eye-One and the same 
  > target/file do not provide accurate proofing.
  > 
  > What do I need to do to make a soft-proof profile for G1.8 source?  
  > Do I have to do something to the target or the .txt Match is looking 
  > at?
  > 
  > When starting with color images in ARGB space (G2.2) should I convert 
  > to another color space with gamma 1.8 such as Apple RGB before going 
  > through B&W conversion process?  Convert to G1.8 after processing or 
  > just tag the image G1.8?  I'm a little confused here.
  > 
  > Thanks,
  > 
  > Eric



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Roy,

> to proof multiple rendering intents, then you need a separate proof

I know you have been beset with questions so here is one more if you 
may indulge me.

What is meant by the phrase "rendering intents" in the context of the 
sentence above?

Thanks,

Don Bryant

I'm not Roy, but I can help you with this one.

Rendering Intent (Perceptual, Relative Colorimetric, Saturation etc.) defines which characteristics of the original color space (Source Space) you are coming from that are to be preserved when mapping into another color space.  When the gamuts of the two spaces do not entirely overlap something has got to give.  By choosing a rendering intent you are telling the Color Management Module (CMM) what properties are important to you.  Proofing is the process of evaluating which intent best serves your image through a test print or changing the way it displayed on your monitor (soft proofing).

Perceptual - Attempts to preserve the visual relationship between colors by compressing the gamut. It usually comes at the cost of desaturation color.  Often used for photo printing.

Relative Colorimetric -  Preserves all in gamut colors  that are directly reproducible in both color spaces), clips out-of-gamut colors to the nearest reproducible hue, and scales the white point of the source to the white point of the target.

Saturation - Maps the saturated primary colors in the source space to the saturated primary colors in the target space, without bothering about differences in hue, saturation, or lightness.

No matter which Rendering Intent you use, a compromise of the original image will be made.  Proofing is important.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: donbga 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 1:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New icc based Soft-proof profiles for QTR


  Roy,

  > to proof multiple rendering intents, then you need a separate proof

  I know you have been beset with questions so here is one more if you 
  may indulge me.

  What is meant by the phrase "rendering intents" in the context of the 
  sentence above?

  Thanks,

  Don Bryant




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
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  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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