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Kodak's new 100 year paper.

Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Joe Davajon

Since many of us print both b@w and color, I thought I'd share this.  I hope I'm 
not out of line.

Here are my initial observations on Kodak's new Ultima Paper with Colorfast 
technology they report will last 100 years unprotected.  

After trying four different places, I finally found some High Gloss at CompUsa.  
Price: $32.28 out the door.  I couldn't see any Satin which I prefer.

I have made some initial tests on two of my printers:  Epson 890 with OEM dye 
cartridges and the Epson 2200 with OEM cartridges.

First: The 890.  Prints are excellent!  No issues and the ink does not look as if 
it were sitting on top of the paper.  Color spectrum is wide as I've seen, and 
very nicely saturated.  Great blues, reds, greens, and flesh tones are very 
pleasing.  If Kodak's estimation of 100 years with dye inks, this would seem to 
me to be a significant and gratifying breakthrough in technology.  One 
concern however, is that Kodak states that a fade rate of 30% over the life of 
the print is acceptable.  At least one person in this group strongly feels that 
30% is not acceptable.  My question to the group is this:  if the print will fade 
30% in 100 years hanging on your refrigerator, what would the fade rate be if 
the same print were protected in an archival album or mounted on museum 
board behind glass which protects from UV?  So perhaps, a 30% fade rate is 
a moot question.  I'm asking the groups thinking on the matter.

Next:  The 2200.  A different story here.  There is significant bronzing in the 
deepest shadows.  Too much.  I sprayed the print with Premier Art Spray but 
that did not eliminate or alleviate the problem to any significant degree.  It did, 
however, seem to brighten the print some.  But the color spectrum while not 
dramatically inferior is not as wide as the 890 ink dye print.  The 890 clearly 
has better reds, greens, blues.  But you have to have the prints side by side to 
see the difference.  Viewed individually, they both look good except for the 
bronzing of the 2200 print.  

In summary, the 890 with OEM cartridges produces superior prints.  If Kodak's 
estimation for print life is accurate we've got a fine paper here.  The 2200 has 
issues that discourage me personally from exploring the paper further.  

One caveat:  These remarks are just my personal evaluation and others may 
not agree.  I'm very interested in hearing the experiences of others exploring 
this paper.  

This is a great group and my personal thank you to all of you who are so 
generous in helping inform the rest of us.  

Joe Davajon

RE: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Ed Mathews

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Davajon [mailto:davajon@...] 
<snip>  
> Price: $32.28 out the door.  I couldn't see any Satin which I prefer.

For how many sheets of what size?

> First: The 890.  Prints are excellent!

Please try some Black Only and see if there is a tendency toward warm or
cool tone.   Kodak inkjet papers have always been a little too cool for
my liking in the past.

> concern however, is that Kodak states that a fade rate of 30% 
> over the life of 
> the print is acceptable.  At least one person in this group 
> strongly feels that 
> 30% is not acceptable.  My question to the group is this:  if 
> the print will fade 
> 30% in 100 years hanging on your refrigerator, what would the 
> fade rate be if 
> the same print were protected in an archival album or mounted 
> on museum 
> board behind glass which protects from UV?

I don't think you can extrapolate that information from that 100 year
rating.  To me, the more important question would be WHEN does the 30%
fade happen?  If it happens linearly, and over the 100 year span that's
not too bad, that's only 10% every 33 years.  But, I can well imagine it
might not happen that way, and it might fade 30% fairly quickly and then
stabilize.  To me, that would NOT be OK.  I guess we need some testing
done here.

Thanks for the review.

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com

RE: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Paul Roark

Joe,

>...initial observations on Kodak's new Ultima Paper with Colorfast 
>technology they report will last 100 years unprotected.  

>... One concern however, is that Kodak states that a fade rate of 30% 
>over the life of the print is acceptable. ...

The 30% fade is a benchmark that, I believe, Wilhelm and RIT also use.  So,
the numbers are just relative numbers.  That is, if they use the same end
point, the numbers they advertise might give useful information on relative
fade rates.  100 years unprotected is very impressive. 

I'll be testing some of this as well as the HP paper.  I'll have some of the
quads in the fader at the same time.

>Next:  The 2200.  A different story here.  There is significant bronzing 
>in the deepest shadows.  ... Premier Art Spray ... did not eliminate or
>alleviate the problem to any significant degree.  

>...  The 890 clearly has better reds, greens, blues.  ...

>In summary, the 890 with OEM cartridges produces superior prints.  ...


If the Kodak claims are correct, the Epson pigment business is going to take
a major hit. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

RE: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Joe Davajon

--- Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> wrote:
If the Kodak claims are correct, the Epson pigment
business is going to take
a major hit. 

Paul,
Please excuse the last post.  I accidently hit the
send.
Thanks for your comments.  Indeed, some have hinted  
of Kodak's demise.  They may have been premature!
Joe

Re: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Joe Davajon wrote:

>Next:  The 2200.  A different story here.  There is significant bronzing in the 
>deepest shadows.  Too much.  
>

Joe,

Did you use the KODAK Recommended settings for Ultima on the 2200? Or 
are you trying to get 1440 or 2880 out of it?  (AFAIK no can do)
 

If you go to the Kodak site and  read the info, there is a drop down list of recommended printer settings for various printers including the 2200.   For the 2200 they are:


	
Epson Stylus Photo 2200

KODAK Paper Product			

KODAK Ultima Picture Paper 
Ink Cartridge:Photo	
Paper/Media:Plain Paper	
Advanced Settings:Custom> Advanced, Photo 720 dpi, High Speed Off, PhotoEnhance4


It can't handle much pigment at all...

To run it at 1440 or 2880  you would minimally need a Custom Profile 
with the media set to a very low ink load choice, and more likely a RIP 
to control the may ink load.. Hmmm.. Wonder how it would work for 
someone with ImagePrint?

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Re: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

You can find the recommended paper settings for the new Ultima paper at:

<http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=1963&pq-locale=en_US>

They seem to use  pretty  low inkloads all around, but ESPECIALLY with 
pigments.

Of course, the largest size is 8.5 x 11..  UGH

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Re: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Joe Davajon

snip:
Joe,

Did you use the KODAK Recommended settings for Ultima
on the 2200? Or 
are you trying to get 1440 or 2880 out of it?  (AFAIK
no can do)
 
Yes I used Kodak's recommendations.  Tried various
settings but problems remain.
Joe D.

Re: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Joe Davajon wrote:

>snip:
>Joe,
>
>Did you use the KODAK Recommended settings for Ultima
>on the 2200? Or 
>are you trying to get 1440 or 2880 out of it?  (AFAIK
>no can do)
> 
>Yes I used Kodak's recommendations.  Tried various
>settings but problems remain.
>Joe D.
>  
>

YUCK!



 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Re: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Edward Wiseman

Joe..
How do you know for sure that you have the "NEW" ULTIMA vs the OLD?
Supposedly the "NEW" stuff is not yet in the stores..

Eddie Wiseman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Joe Davajon 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 1:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.



  snip:
  Joe,

  Did you use the KODAK Recommended settings for Ultima
  on the 2200? Or 
  are you trying to get 1440 or 2880 out of it?  (AFAIK
  no can do)

  Yes I used Kodak's recommendations.  Tried various
  settings but problems remain.
  Joe D.



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

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  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Joe Davajon

--- Edward Wiseman <pahts@...> wrote:

SNIP:   Joe..
How do you know for sure that you have the "NEW"
ULTIMA vs the OLD?
Supposedly the "NEW" stuff is not yet in the stores..

Eddie,
The package for the paper has "New ColorLast
Technology" written on it.  Plus, Big print that says:
"Brilliant Color Photos That Last Over 100 years."

You can't mistake it for the old Ultima.  

Joe

Re: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Edward Wiseman

THX Joe..
It just goes to show you the "quality level" of information given to the Kodak factory telephone reps...

Eddie Wiseman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Joe Davajon 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 2:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.


  --- Edward Wiseman <pahts@...> wrote:

  SNIP:   Joe..
  How do you know for sure that you have the "NEW"
  ULTIMA vs the OLD?
  Supposedly the "NEW" stuff is not yet in the stores..

  Eddie,
  The package for the paper has "New ColorLast
  Technology" written on it.  Plus, Big print that says:
  "Brilliant Color Photos That Last Over 100 years."

  You can't mistake it for the old Ultima.  

  Joe


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
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  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Ernst Dinkla

>In summary, the 890 with OEM cartridges produces superior
prints.  If Kodak's
estimation for print life is accurate we've got a fine paper
here.  The 2200 has
issues that discourage me personally from exploring the paper
further. <

Joe,

I don't think the paper is meant for pigment inks anyway so the
2200 result is to be expected.

Paul Roark loves to fade test the paper as I understand it. Could
you help him with some prints ? We all want to know whether the
claims are true or just Kodak claims.

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Joe Davajon

--- Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:



SNIP....
Joe,

Paul Roark loves to fade test the paper as I
understand it. Could
you help him with some prints ? We all want to know
whether the
claims are true or just Kodak claims.

Ernst

Ernest,
Anything I could do to assist Paul.  I'd be delighted.
Joe D.

RE: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

2004-02-04 by Paul Roark

Thanks, there is already some Kodak paper in the mail to me.  It'll go into
the fader with the HP solution and some UT2.  It should be a good shoot out.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/
_________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Davajon [mailto:davajon@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 12:47 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Kodak's new 100 year paper.

--- Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:



SNIP....
Joe,

Paul Roark loves to fade test the paper as I
understand it. Could
you help him with some prints ? We all want to know
whether the
claims are true or just Kodak claims.

Ernst

Ernest,
Anything I could do to assist Paul.  I'd be delighted.
Joe D.






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 

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