Digital BW, The Print

In a message dated 2/12/2004 11:21:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, drjoe2@... 
writes:

> I would not only find an alternative but would seriously consider 
> not ordering anything unless you can be guaranteed that they will 
> not charge your credit card until the goods are literally on the 
> truck on their way to you.
> 
> Joe
> Joe when was the last time you bought anything from cone editions and what 
would that guarantee be? A verbal? a piece of paper? A promisary note? What 
guarentee do you get from other vendors?
And how many years has Polaroid been in chapter 11? 
There are very few if any people on this list that use the services of cone 
editions, unless you went to a workshop or had a scan or print done.
Inkjetmall handles the piezography products and I'm sure does much better 
than Cone editions these days. Now that Jon has taught every one how to do it, 
the need for cone editions has dropped considerably I'm sure. I don't have any 
worries about inkjet mall and the piezography line of BW products.
my .02
Keith, do you really think this was important news that had to be posted?
Looks like off topic spam to me. Mud slinging like this is just so wrong and 
doesn't help anyone. 

Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sdmey4@... wrote:

>
>Inkjetmall handles the piezography products and I'm sure does much better 
>than Cone editions these days. 
>

Hey.. Ready for your Homer Simpson moment?

Go READ the first link I posted!

http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/our-mission.html

Here, since you are obviously to busy or unable to find the first 
paragraph, I will quote the relevant text.

"inkjetmall.com is an online resource for digital printmakers. We are an 
extension of Cone Editions Press. "


Cone Editions owns InkJetMall!  As goes Cone Editions, so goes InkJetMall.

> I don't have any 
>worries about inkjet mall and the piezography line of BW products.
>
Then you're probably being foolhardy, since that that line and IJM are 
apparently owned by Cone Editions.

>my .02
>Keith, do you really think this was important news that had to be posted?
>Looks like off topic spam to me.
>
Give me a break. It's not spam, it's public record information about a 
business involved as a supplier of software and supplies to the Digital 
B&W printing market. If the company is in financial trouble that pushes 
them into Chapter 11, buyers have every right and NEED to be aware of that.

> Mud slinging like this is just so wrong and 
>doesn't help anyone. 
>  
>

No, this isn't mudslinging.  Mudslinging would involve me expressing my 
personal opinion about Mr Cone. 

As for his veracity, let's hope for his sake that  his creditors don't 
bring those of us who have dealt with Jon professionally in as witnesses 
- the veracity of any representations he makes to the court might then 
be called into question. 

I personally can vouchsafe that Cone promised numerous returned calls 
that he never made back when he WAS shopping InkJetMall around for 
sale.  The man returned my call once and we agreed to speak again.  I 
called back several times and he never called back nor spoke to me 
again.  He lied about returning the calls for whatever reason.  Plain 
and simple. 

By chance Steve, you wouldn't be using the Piezography B&W or Piezotone 
inks?  If so, I'd say you just are worried that this will go badly and 
don't want the negative news posted because it might lower Cone's sales 
and hurt the value of IJM and his product lines when assessed as part of 
the Chapter 11 process.  Know what I say?  TOO BAD!  That's not why 'm 
posting this info, I'm posting it because buyers and potential creditors 
and vendors have a NEED to know this before entering in further 
arrangements and contracts with him/Cone Editions.  That's why 
Bankruptcy filings are public record.

If Cone had wanted to be upfront about this, it could have been made 
clear as most public companies do, by an announcement or press release 
that this was a possibility BEFOREHAND.  It bothers me that any vendor 
has so little respect for their customers and vendors that they would 
not publicize this beforehand.  When airlines or Polaroid have headed to 
Chapter 11 they announce it beforehand..  Cone hasn't even announced it 
YET, after the fact.  As much as Jon may have been a pioneer in this 
area, as much as I am sad to see this happen, I also wouldn't personally 
trust a business run by someone who lied to me and who is not being 
fully open and upfront about this.

Two+ years ago, Jon was brave enough to post here and call me a liar 
when I reported what many knew, that he was looking for a buyer for 
IJM.  If he wants to contradict me and call me a liar now, he knows 
where to find me.. Looks like the big ol' universal Kharma up and bit 
him on the butt.

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

I for one think that Joe Cone has done a lot for B/W printing and 
should be thanked. 
The fact that there are now numerous other ways to print B/W can't be 
a great help to him or Injetmall. True, some of his product sucked, 
but many reported wonderful results. 
This thread makes it sound like JC and Inkjetmall are no more, I am 
sure that will not be the case. 
At the moment I imagine that JC is at PMA and I would not expect to 
hear from the man himself for several days. 
If you purchase from Inkjetmall using a credit card you have plenty 
of protection, so don't be concerned about receiving the goods. The 
people that should be worried are the workers there, it's them that 
could be out of pocket and out of a job.

Sierra Gold

Editor P.O.V. Image Service wrote:

>
>  
>
>>I don't have any 
>>worries about inkjet mall and the piezography line of BW products.
>>
>>    
>>
>Then you're probably being foolhardy, since that that line and IJM are 
>apparently owned by Cone Editions.
>  
>
The Piezography B&W trademark is owned by Cone Editions..
<http://www.piezography.com/piezographyBW-faqs.html>


Also, I'll point out that all the promises of Piezography and Piezotones 
for the Canon desktop printers have never made it (in over 18 months 
since first announced) materialized. <
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=006jL5> Nor has 
Cone made any statement about them being dropped, instead, the promises 
have quietly disappeared from his site.

except from here:
http://www.piezography.com/piezographyBW-faqs.html

and here:
http://www.piezography.com/bwtimeline.html

as compared to here:
http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/bw/bwicc.html

and here:
http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/bw/piezo-requirements.html

I do my research BEFORE I post.

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

flyfishingusa2002 wrote:

>I for one think that Joe Cone has done a lot for B/W printing 
>
No doubt about it..

>and 
>should be thanked.
>
He was, by many.

> 
>The fact that there are now numerous other ways to print B/W can't be 
>a great help to him or Injetmall. 
>
And his pricing model had a train wreck b/c of it.

>True, some of his product sucked, 
>but many reported wonderful results. 
>This thread makes it sound like JC and Inkjetmall are no more, I am 
>sure that will not be the case. 
>
I doubt either one is no more..  They will change though.. Parts of the 
operations could be sold, spun off, or closed entirely.  I do know there 
was a lot of crap between them and R9 as well.. Who knows what the terms 
of that settlement was, or even if there was one? 

>At the moment I imagine that JC is at PMA and I would not expect to 
>hear from the man himself for several days. 
>
And I wouldn't expect anything but spin control to keep the value of his 
operations high from Jon.  If he does that this time, I'm more than 
willing to debate it with him.. Last time I gave him the benefit of the 
doubt - not this time.

You can rest assured though that I'll have my attorney get a copy of his 
filings tomorrow, so that if Jon wants to play spinmeister again, or try 
calling me a liar this time, I won't be caught flat-footed or sandbagged.

>If you purchase from Inkjetmall using a credit card you have plenty 
>of protection, so don't be concerned about receiving the goods. 
>
I'm not 100% certain about that.  I believe that some who purchased 
airline tickets in similar situations, AFTER the Chapter 11 filing did 
NOT get all their $$ back (PanAm, Midway, etc)..  Coverage by credit 
card companies may be limited to their benefit and a customer's loss, in 
such cases, by the Bankruptcy code..  There could be an implicit 
assumption of risk by a buyer when they purchase from a vendor already 
under bankruptcy protection.

>The 
>people that should be worried are the workers there, it's them that 
>could be out of pocket and out of a job.
>  
>
Agreed..  As could R9 (if there was a  financial settlement), vendors 
who supplied product to Cone, and other vendors who may have been 
selling his products.

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

In a message dated 2/12/2004 8:38:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
editor@... writes:

> sdmey4@... wrote:
> 
> >
> >Inkjetmall handles the piezography products and I'm sure does much better 
> >than Cone editions these days. 
> 
> Hey.. Ready for your Homer Simpson moment?
> 
> Go READ the first link I posted!
> 
> http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/our-mission.html
> 
> Here, since you are obviously to busy or unable to find the first 
> paragraph, I will quote the relevant text.
> 
> "inkjetmall.com is an online resource for digital printmakers. We are an 
> extension of Cone Editions Press. "
> 
> Yea, yea, yea, I read it! meaningless since we don't know any particulars. 
> Most likely  Inkjetmall was assoiociated with cone editions for name 
> recognition. 

Sorry I' don't know what A Homer simpson moment is? I don't watch the 
simpsons. But I can guess...

> Cone Editions owns InkJetMall!  As goes Cone Editions, so goes InkJetMall.
snip>
Maybe? maybe not? Who knows at this point.
I just think its odd that you seem to have the need to police the internet 
for news like this. Obviously you where looking for dirt and found it. None of 
the rest of us are likely to stumble on this unless we are looking for it. 
There are hardly any Piezotone people on this list at all! Are you a print maker? 
Photographer? black and white guy, or Tabloid Journalist? I would be more 
concerned about Cone editions trying to buy product from me as a vendor. My take 
is they have more debt than they can handle and the only way to fix it is to 
make sales or borrow! ! Selling product they don't have or can't deliver is 
Illegal isn't it? like fraud? I don't think Mr. cone would risk Jail for the price 
of some ink carts. All of us that make prints for sale probably have a 
business licence correct?
Will we all see the news here first of individual financial woes? Thanks to 
Kieth Krebs?  Jon has never been a a big list fan, what was he supposed to do 
announce to all the various list the details of a chaper 11 proceeding? He 
certainly doesn't hang around this list. Cone editions IS NOT a public company, 
and under no obligations for announcements.
And Yes YOU guessed It, I do use Piezotone inks. I'm not worried though, 
because I use Studio Print RIP  and the EyeONE  Photo spectrometer so I can use 
any ink I like even 6 different brands and make it all work in half an hour, no 
matter what Ink I put in there. I pick my BW inks for the tint I like, not who 
sells them. I used MIS before these.

snip>
Kieth writes: 
If Cone had wanted to be upfront about this, it could have been made 
clear as most public companies do, by an announcement or press release 
that this was a possibility BEFOREHAND.  It bothers me that any vendor 
has so little respect for their customers and vendors that they would 
not publicize this beforehand.  When airlines or Polaroid have headed to 
Chapter 11 they announce it beforehand..  Cone hasn't even announced it 
YET, after the fact.  As much as Jon may have been a pioneer in this 
area, as much as I am sad to see this happen, I also wouldn't personally 
trust a business run by someone who lied to me and who is not being 
fully open and upfront about this.

Two+ years ago, Jon was brave enough to post here and call me a liar 
when I reported what many knew, that he was looking for a buyer for 
IJM.  If he wants to contradict me and call me a liar now, he knows 
where to find me.. Looks like the big ol' universal Kharma up and bit 
him on the butt.


Keith Krebs

Again not a public company, and they are all off to PMA trying to make things 
happen, sooooooooooo....That would be brilliant. Lets tell everyone where 
filing Chapter 11 and then spend thousands and pack up and head out to Las Vegas 
PMA for a week and sell some stuff.   
 I probably would have called you a liar too , if your reported to an 
internet list what we discussed on the phone or what you heard snooping around. 
Nobody like a blabber mouth!
Obviously you think he is out, and I don't. He is going to do everything he 
can to save that 4000 sq. foot studio that he built up from nothing. You would 
too.
Lets just see if I can by Piezotone inks next Valentines day 2005. I think it 
will be no problem.
Steve M.


> 
> 
> 
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sdmey4@... wrote:

>Maybe? maybe not? Who knows at this point.
>I just think its odd that you seem to have the need to police the internet 
>for news like this. Obviously you where looking for dirt and found it. 
>
Sorry.. Wrong answer.. A third party made me aware of the filing.  What 
I did then, BEFORE announcing it, was to confirm it.

>None of 
>the rest of us are likely to stumble on this unless we are looking for it. 
>
And I went looking for confirmation.. of course.. Imagine what could 
happen if I alleged a Bankruptcy filing that wasn't true... To report it 
without confirming it would be "tabloid journalism."

>There are hardly any Piezotone people on this list at all! Are you a print maker? 
>Photographer? black and white guy, or Tabloid Journalist? I would be more 
>concerned about Cone editions trying to buy product from me as a vendor. My take 
>is they have more debt than they can handle and the only way to fix it is to 
>make sales or borrow! ! Selling product they don't have or can't deliver is 
>Illegal isn't it? like fraud? I don't think Mr. cone would risk Jail for the price 
>of some ink carts. 
>
And I am not about to accuse IJM or Cone of fraud, so don't even paint 
it that way.. However, the fact exists that companies under Chapter 11 
CAN have problems securing additional supplies from vendors.

>All of us that make prints for sale probably have a 
>business licence correct?
>Will we all see the news here first of individual financial woes? 
>
OK... that's utterly ridiculous.. The fact is Cone is/was a major 
pioneer and vendor in this market segment. 

1)    That's quite a different kettle of fish than the financial status 
of individual artists.

2)   Were this some personal bankruptcy filing by Jon Cone, I would not 
have reported it.  That would have no bearing on this group either..  
What happens to IJM and Piezography does have some bearing though.

>Thanks to 
>Kieth Krebs?
>
Oh, yes, I'm a big muckraker.. NOt

> Jon has never been a a big list fan, what was he supposed to do 
>announce to all the various list the details of a chaper 11 proceeding? 
>
Did he announce the filing itself on the Piezo list? on his website?  
no-one is asking for the details, but an announcement would have been 
professional IMHO.

>He 
>certainly doesn't hang around this list. 
>
He certainly came in here once before like a bat out of hell when I 
mentioned the earlier issue. AND he runs the "All messages require 
approval"  piezography3000 YAHOO! group..  I'll post the news there as 
well, where more users/listmembers arguably have a VERY valid interest,  
but I doubt it would get approved.

>Cone editions IS NOT a public company, 
>and under no obligations for announcements.
>
Nope, no "obligations".. But there is a difference between 
professionalism and obligation.

>
>
>Again not a public company, and they are all off to PMA trying to make things 
>happen, sooooooooooo....That would be brilliant. Lets tell everyone where 
>filing Chapter 11 and then spend thousands and pack up and head out to Las Vegas 
>PMA for a week and sell some stuff.   
>
Well, it's public anyway now... Cone has no right to ANY expectation of 
privacy on this.

> I probably would have called you a liar too , if your reported to an 
>internet list what we discussed on the phone or what you heard snooping around. 
>
Then you'd be the liar.. Being caught with your pants down doesn't then 
excuse lying about it..

>Nobody like a blabber mouth!
>
Except those who might benefit from the forewarning..

>Obviously you think he is out, and I don't.
>
Never said I did.. Others said that.. I said I would research 
alternatives and  have them ready.  It's what any prudent businessperson 
would do in such a situation.

> He is going to do everything he 
>can to save that 4000 sq. foot studio that he built up from nothing. You would 
>too.
>
No argument there.. and I DO wish him luck.. The more viable players in 
this market segment, the better. (I DO also like the tonality of some of 
his inksets) Of course if he or any other company files even partially 
to try and free themself of settlement agreements and contracts that 
might be pretty slimey.. I'm not saying that IS the case, just that it's 
quite often part and parcel of a business filing for bankruptcy protection.

I'll go through the debt listing on the filings for Cone Editions when I 
have a chance, and see if there's anything interesting..

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Here's the post I sent to the Piezography3000 list... Want to bet on 
whether it gets approved?

Of course, if it's not approved, now that I've posted it, non-approval 
could be considered an intentional and affirmative act to prevent 
users/buyers of his products from knowing financial information that 
could very well be relevant to their situation as customers and their 
purchasing decisions.

It is purely informational, I don't think it is inflammatory in any way.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Cone Editions files for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy protection?
Date: 	Fri, 13 Feb 2004 01:31:54 -0500
From: 	Editor P.O.V. Image Service <editor@...>
Reply-To: 	editor@...
Organization: 	Persistence of Vision Image Service
To: 	piezography3000@yahoogroups.com



First, to try and understand the relationship between InkJetMall and 
Cone Editions, read the first paragraph at:
http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/our-mission.html

Then see case #04-10148 at:
http://www.vtb.uscourts.gov/calendar/030904_11_r.html

This is a Chapter 11 filing which allows for
"reorganization"..

While I've had my run-ins with Jon Cone, it's kinda sad to see someone
who is arguably THE pioneer of monochrome inkjet printing biz, 
apparently in these tough straits.



Jon,


1)	Is IJM a subsidiary of Cone Editions?

2)	What are the implications of this filing for Piezography B&W and/or 
InkJetmall?




 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

sdmey4@... wrote:

> they are all off to PMA trying to make things 
>happen, sooooooooooo....That would be brilliant. Lets tell everyone where 
>filing Chapter 11 and then spend thousands and pack up and head out to Las Vegas 
>PMA for a week and sell some stuff.  
>
You seem to be arguing that this is all private information.. It isn't.. 
It's public record.  Beyond that, I don't think there is a GOOD time for 
Cone Editions to announce this. However, that doesn't mean they don't 
have a professional responsibility to report it anyway.

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

In a message dated 2/12/2004 10:46:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
editor@... writes:

> You seem to be arguing that this is all private information.. It isn't.. 
> It's public record.  Beyond that, I don't think there is a GOOD time for 
> Cone Editions to announce this. However, that doesn't mean they don't 
> have a professional responsibility to report it anyway.



> Anouncing now, though? might as well bag PMA. unless you looking for 
> investors:)

I know, don't shoot the messenger, I just don't see why you feel you have to 
report it. Inkjet Mall is either open or closed Thats all I need to know.
Steve M.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sdmey4@... wrote:

>
>I know, don't shoot the messenger, I just don't see why you feel you have to 
>report it. 
>

Well, in the interests of fairness to Jon, I wouldn't wish bankruptcy on 
anyone.. It's no fun.. I know that from personal experience having once 
gone through Chapter 7 myself after being unable to work for  nearly 6 
months over a 2 year period - I blew out a knee and was unable to work 
for three months (climbing catwalks, to rig strobes, with a blown knee 
is prohibitive of good health.. LOL), once I returned to working, I 
reinjured myself jumping out of the way of a bus that ran a red light 
and was intent on running me over.

I'm a fan of full disclosure and hold myself to the same standard here - 
even though my personal bankruptcy has no real relevancy to this or 
anything in the inkjet world.. Fortunately, the only people affected by 
my filing was myself and a few creditors.

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

As this seems to be a two-person dialogue at this point, perhaps it could be taken off-
line.
Thanks

-----Original Message-----

From: sdmey4@... [mailto:sdmey4@...] 
Sent: 13 February 2004 06:54
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Important News re: InkjetMall and Cone
Editions

I know, don't shoot the messenger, I just don't see why you feel you have to

report it. Inkjet Mall is either open or closed Thats all I need to know.
Steve M.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

It may well be all "you" want to know but Piezo users will want to know a
very great deal more.

Since when have American citizens hidden from the truth - don't tell me, all
the time right?

Keep shooting the crap krepps and more power to your elbow old son.

Richard


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Well old son, Steve is and has been a Piezo user since the very
beginning. Even pre-ordered their very fist product before it hit the
market, and probably spends more on their products every month than I
do on my car.
Being informed is sometimes a useful tool when digging on a stance.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard"
<richard@r...> wrote:
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sdmey4@a... [mailto:sdmey4@a...] 
> Sent: 13 February 2004 06:54
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Important News re: InkjetMall and Cone
> Editions
> 
> I know, don't shoot the messenger, I just don't see why you feel you
have to
> 
> report it. Inkjet Mall is either open or closed Thats all I need to
know.
> Steve M.
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> It may well be all "you" want to know but Piezo users will want to
know a
> very great deal more.
> 
> Since when have American citizens hidden from the truth - don't tell
me, all

> the time right?
> 
> Keep shooting the crap krepps and more power to your elbow old son.
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
> to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
> currently using to read this email. ]

-----Original Message-----

From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@...] 
Sent: 13 February 2004 16:43
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Important News re: InkjetMall and Cone Editions

Well old son, Steve is and has been a Piezo user since the very
beginning. Even pre-ordered their very fist product before it hit the
market, and probably spends more on their products every month than I
do on my car.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

What precisely is you point old son?


Richard


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

First, I'm not a practicing attorney, so this is my own personal 
opinion, and NOT intended as legal advice. It only lays out what I 
understand the law is and how I PERSONALLY might react. Your mileage may 
vary.

Now for some relevant info from my personal perspective for IJM 
customers.  

My understanding, after some research, is that anyone who buys after a 
Chapter 11 filing stands in no better position vis IJM than does any 
creditor, should IJM for financial reasons be unable to fulfill the 
order (that's part of WHY people need to know about the filing AND part 
of why it is public).  That means if they charge someone and cannot 
deliver, you'd likely only get pennies back on the dollar (as did those 
with PanAm and Midway Express airline tickets). Of course, that would 
not be relevant IF  IJM only charges your credit card when product 
actually ships. 

I have no idea how/when IJM charges orders, but I assume, like most 
online vendors they do not charge the client/customer until product is 
shipped to them.  If that's NOT the way they currently do business, I 
personally, would not place an order without a commitment from IJM NOT 
to charge my card until the products shipped.

As for Credit Card protection of a customer's order, my understanding is 
that such coverage in cases of a vendor filing for bankruptcy is very 
limited, because: Chapter 11 filings are public, the customer therefore 
could have been informed (it may be a legal fiction, but that's the 
argument), and once a Chapter 11 filing is made, the buyers and vendors 
are assumed to be on notice that the Chapter 11 could become a Chapter 7 
(liquidation) filing if the Chapter 11 plan is not approved by the 
filing parties creditors and/or the court. So, before placing further 
orders, I'd probably check with my credit card company, explaining that 
I know of the Chapter 11 filing, and ask them whether my purchase is 
still protected (Midway Express and PanAm customers who had post Chapter 
11 filing tickets only received pennies on the dollar back AFAIK) to its 
full value.

Please understand, this is not to say that IJM would ever purposely take 
orders they knew they could not fulfill.  That would be fraudulent, and 
I don't think they are dishonest.  Reality is that  they could honestly 
intend to fill orders and find that,  as a result of the filing, their 
vendors/suppliers simply refuse to deliver expected product to them that 
they need to fulfill the orders (especially on credit). Such a situation 
can affect ANY firm who files for Chapter 11 (i.e. in some Airline 
instances they had to stop flying temporarily or permanently simply 
because no-one would sell them any more fuel).  Often, the filer signs a 
reaffirmation agreement (a simple outline of that is at: 
<http://www.mauilaw.com/article5.htm>) to continue existing 
relationships with preferred suppliers, providers of equipment bought on 
time, etc. to avoid exactly these types of issues.

To put it all in a nutshell.  Once a vendor files for Chapter 11 it's 
"Caveat Emptor.." (buyer beware)



 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

This thread is so over. Please.

John Merrill

Editor P.O.V. Image Service wrote:

>Here's the post I sent to the Piezography3000 list... Want to bet on 
>whether it gets approved?
>  
>
I've always promised to treat people with equanimity.

Along those lines, I should make 100% clear that my post to the 
Piezography 3000 list was approved sometime today.  I think I'm safe to 
assume that Jon will respond to my 2 questions therein after he returns 
from PMA.  Hopefully the questions will give him a fair chance to clear 
the air quickly, and as completely as can be hoped for in situations 
like this.

Kudos to Jon and/or whoever else at IJM/Cone Editions approved my post!

As I've said regarding IJM, I don't think they or Jon are dishonest - 
this goes a long way with me, and perhaps some way with others, to 
restoring my faith in their basic integrity.  (Of course, I still think 
Jon is every bit as stubborn, driven, and hard-nosed as I am.)  For now, 
I don't think anyone is served by further vague conjecture here.. 
Financial hardships hit even good people with the best of intentions.  
I'm sure Jon will have something to say soon enough.

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

from Jon Cone on the Piezo list:

> IT AIN'T SO!  InkjetMall is a totally separate company and 
corporation and
> is not filing! Nor is PIEZOGRAPHY products!!!
> 
> And it is not sad that Cone Editions Press IS filing bankruptcy 
> protection.
> It is different than being broke or out of business. To the 
contrary, we
> continue to meet all our monthly expenses as a business as we 
always have.
> We are thriving company continuing its fine digital printing and 
> educational
> workshops. 
> 
> Cone Editions Press, Ltd. is seeking bankruptcy protection and 
> doing so from
> a long-term, expensive litigation which it has been enduring in 
> California,
> in an effort to stop the financial bleeding of the company, and 
> to bring the
> matter to a speedy resolution under the protection of the 
Bankruptcy Court
> of the State of Vermont.
> 
> The feeling and atmosphere at Cone Editions Press is "business as 
> usual". We
> are happy with this filing, and feel a sense of great relief 
because the

> filing has stopped the expensive, wasteful litigation in 
> California. We will
> post a more complete statement in a few days when we return from 
> Las Vegas.

Just when I thought it was safe to go to sleep..

I got an answer from Jon, as I expected. For me it answers all the 
questions I had, and I wish Jon, Cone Editions, and IJM only the best. 
As he already posted his answers on the Piezo 3000 list, I shall repost 
them here - fairness demands it:

"on 2/13/04 1:31 AM, Editor P.O.V. Image Service at editor@...
wrote:


>> 
>> First, to try and understand the relationship between InkJetMall and
>> Cone Editions, read the first paragraph at:
>> http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/our-mission.html
>> 
>> Then see case #04-10148 at:
>> http://www.vtb.uscourts.gov/calendar/030904_11_r.html
>> 
>> This is a Chapter 11 filing which allows for
>> "reorganization"..
>> 
>> While I've had my run-ins with Jon Cone, it's kinda sad to see someone
>> who is arguably THE pioneer of monochrome inkjet printing biz,
>> apparently in these tough straits.
>  
>


Keith, coming from you this means a lot and I thank you. But we are not in tough straits. And it is not sad. We are thriving, continue to meet all our monthly expenses. This is a protection filing - not a going out of the business filing.
 

>> 
>> Jon,
>> 
>> 
>> 1)    Is IJM a subsidiary of Cone Editions?
>  
>


NO IT IS NOT. Totally different and separate corporation.


>> 
>> 2)    What are the implications of this filing for Piezography B&W and/or
>> InkJetmall?
>  
>

NONE WHAT SO EVER!!


>> 
>> Keith Krebs
>  
>


Thanks again Keith for your concern. Your support means more than any of the misunderstandings we've had in the past!"


For me, this topic is closed unless something unexpected happens.



 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Thank you for passing this info on to the group, Crispin.
And say "Good Night' Keith.

Teelions

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Crispin Agnew" 
<sircrispinagnew@y...> wrote:

> from Jon Cone on the Piezo list:
> 
> > IT AIN'T SO!  InkjetMall is a totally separate company and 
> corporation and
> > is not filing! Nor is PIEZOGRAPHY products!!!
> > 
> > And it is not sad that Cone Editions Press IS filing bankruptcy 
> > protection.
> > It is different than being broke or out of business. To the 
> contrary, we
> > continue to meet all our monthly expenses as a business as we 
> always have.
> > We are thriving company continuing its fine digital printing and 
> > educational
> > workshops. 
> > 
> > Cone Editions Press, Ltd. is seeking bankruptcy protection and 
> > doing so from
> > a long-term, expensive litigation which it has been enduring in 
> > California,
> > in an effort to stop the financial bleeding of the company, and 
> > to bring the
> > matter to a speedy resolution under the protection of the 
> Bankruptcy Court
> > of the State of Vermont.
> > 
> > The feeling and atmosphere at Cone Editions Press is "business as 
> > usual". We
> > are happy with this filing, and feel a sense of great relief 
> because the
> > filing has stopped the expensive, wasteful litigation in 
> > California. We will
> > post a more complete statement in a few days when we return from 
> > Las Vegas.

Crispin Agnew wrote:

>from Jon Cone on the Piezo list:
>  
>
>>Cone Editions Press, Ltd. is seeking bankruptcy protection and 
>>doing so from
>>a long-term, expensive litigation which it has been enduring in 
>>California,
>>in an effort to stop the financial bleeding of the company, and 
>>to bring the
>>matter to a speedy resolution under the protection of the 
>>    
>>
>Bankruptcy Court
>  
>
>>of the State of Vermont.
>>    
>>

I'm sure it took a lot to choose to go that route and a lot to be that 
up-front about it.   As far as Jon and I are concerned the hatchet of 
our past miscommunications/misunderstandings has been buried.  I wish 
him the best on this.  Back when I was injured, part of the reason I had 
to file for Bankruptcy was the unreasonable demands of one creditor in 
particular.  It's never good to try and bleed a losing party so white in 
litigation that they choose Bankruptcy protection. (Unless they're 
selling cigarettes -- denying they cause cancer  and denying they are 
addictive.. LOL   In all seriousness though, this is just inkjet 
printing, I can't imagine any consumer's life was endangered by whatever 
the California litigation is all about.)

I think, at least for me, it's pretty clear that buying from IJM should 
be, barring anything wholly unexpected, as safe and professional a 
buying experience as it ever has been. I may just have to add another 
1280 to my stable to try some of the Piezotones yet. As I said, I do 
like the tonalities of some of them.


 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

teelions@... wrote:

>Thank you for passing this info on to the group, Crispin.
>And say "Good Night' Keith.
>
>  
>

"Goodnight Keith" ;-)

Why do I imagine Teelions smoking a cigar about now?

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Hi Keith,

> I can't imagine any consumer's life was endangered by whatever
> the California litigation is all about.)

My guess is R9?  Shouldn't this be public record, and given you're so good
at public record research ;-)...

Regards,

Austin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Austin 
Franklin" <darkroom@i...> wrote:
> Hi Keith,
> 
> > I can't imagine any consumer's life was endangered by whatever
> > the California litigation is all about.)
> 
> My guess is R9?   
> Austin


Answer in Harald Johnson's "Mastering Digital Printing" ?
See Chapter 11 (What a coincidence!!!)
http://www.dpandi.com/resources/bookstore/mdp/errata.html

Cheers,
Andre

Interesting that he wrote about this in chapter 11. Although it could have been worse. 
He might have put it in chapter 7.




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sceptre12345" 
<am1000@v...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Austin 
> Franklin" <darkroom@i...> wrote:
> > Hi Keith,
> > 
> > > I can't imagine any consumer's life was endangered by whatever
> > > the California litigation is all about.)
> > 
> > My guess is R9?   
> > Austin
> 
> 
> Answer in Harald Johnson's "Mastering Digital Printing" ?
> See Chapter 11 (What a coincidence!!!)
> http://www.dpandi.com/resources/bookstore/mdp/errata.html
> 
> Cheers,
> Andre

Can we move on, please?
Bob

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jon 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 12:31 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Important News re: InkjetMall and Cone Editions


  >> Cone Editions Press, Ltd. is seeking bankruptcy protection and
  >> doing so from
  >> a long-term, expensive litigation which it has been enduring in
  >> California,

  Funny, that other company wasn't complaining when it had to endure
  'expensive litigation' in Vermont.

  >> in an effort to stop the financial bleeding of the company, and

  Read: 'we lost'.

  Jon



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----

From: Robert W. Shearer [mailto:rwshearer@...] 
Sent: 15 February 2004 17:17
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Important News re: InkjetMall and Cone
Editions

Can we move on, please?
Bob


Why? This is all jolly interesting and quite representative of normal
commercial life

Richard


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