Digital BW, The Print

After tweaking the install procedure for Fedora I'm printing!
The output is still not as good as what I was getting from PS/Paul
Roark curves and certainly doesn't match my 2200/IP setup.

I'm comitted to fine tune my QTR install though I would be greatly
indebted for the clarifications on the following:

1. I'm a little shaky on manually pdating the ppd. What seems to work
is to gedit /etc/cups/PPDS/QUAD1160.ppd to include 4 curves (as per
Roger's suggestion) in bot Curve1 and Curve2 area (I only have
1160-vm-gray.txt and 1160-vm-toned.txt. No -calib... does it matter ?). 
I don't run rin-quadprofile, go straight to Webmin, select -grey for
Curve1, none for Curve2. Save.
I can print a graywedge more or less OK.

How do I verify that the curve is loaded ?
If I use Webmin it still shows -none.

2. If I need to run run-quadprofile, when should I do it and why ?

3. I'm using UT inkset on glossy papers using 1160-vm-grey. 
Should this produce reasonable results for starters ?
It looks like too much ink is laid out and the transitions are not smooth.

4. Since the only printing method I can use is Dave Wroblewski's qpr I
don't think I can start working on calibrating my printer/inks/paper
combination. Is this correct ?

5. Is there a version of qtcups available for download which would
work on Fedora ? I tried to use one from redhat distribution to no
avail (works for the regular 1160 driver though).

If you feel that I can brush up on this without eating the bandwith on
this group pls send me in the righ direction.

Thanks,

Roman

On Fri, 2004-02-20 at 13:18, romanatybwg wrote:
> After tweaking the install procedure for Fedora I'm printing!
> The output is still not as good as what I was getting from PS/Paul
> Roark curves and certainly doesn't match my 2200/IP setup.
> 
> I'm comitted to fine tune my QTR install though I would be greatly
> indebted for the clarifications on the following:
> 
> 1. I'm a little shaky on manually pdating the ppd. What seems to work
> is to gedit /etc/cups/PPDS/QUAD1160.ppd to include 4 curves (as per
> Roger's suggestion) in bot Curve1 and Curve2 area (I only have
> 1160-vm-gray.txt and 1160-vm-toned.txt. No -calib... does it matter
> ?). 
> I don't run rin-quadprofile, go straight to Webmin, select -grey for
> Curve1, none for Curve2. Save.
> I can print a graywedge more or less OK.
> 
> How do I verify that the curve is loaded ?
> If I use Webmin it still shows -none.
> 
> 2. If I need to run run-quadprofile, when should I do it and why ?
> 
> 3. I'm using UT inkset on glossy papers using 1160-vm-grey. 
> Should this produce reasonable results for starters ?
> It looks like too much ink is laid out and the transitions are not
> smooth.
> 
> 4. Since the only printing method I can use is Dave Wroblewski's qpr I
> don't think I can start working on calibrating my printer/inks/paper
> combination. Is this correct ?
> 
> 5. Is there a version of qtcups available for download which would
> work on Fedora ? I tried to use one from redhat distribution to no
> avail (works for the regular 1160 driver though).
> 
> If you feel that I can brush up on this without eating the bandwith on
> this group pls send me in the righ direction.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Roman 

I don't think that is a great combination for glossy paper. All of the
curves were derived for matte paper, specifically EEM and there are
enough differences that I am not surprised that the results are less
than swift.

Try rerunning quadprofile. That should reload your inkset into the ppd.
It should then show up with webmin. If it doesn't it sounds like you
might have a problem with your ppd. Why don't you send me an email with
your ppd attached.

What inks are in your UT set? a black, two grays and a toned? or is it a
black and three grays. If the latter you want to load the 1160-fs
inkset.

Since the UTs have different fluid characteristics than the FS set you
are probably going to have to go through the whole calibration if you
want an ideal curve. 

For printing you aren't going to beat QPR at this stage of the game.
What it does is to produce a command line that tells lpr just how to
print using your ppd. Choose the 1160-FS inkset for the gray tone and
100/0 as the blend. The warm tone set doesn't matter if you are using FS
since it isn't used.

On the other hand, If you have a 2200 why the 1160? The quality of B&W
prints from a 2200, ultrachromes and QTR are simply outstanding, better
in some folks estimation than with Image Print. I don't have a dog in
that fight so I don't know from personal use.  I do have some 2200
prints that were made with ultrachromes and QTR that are just beautiful.

You might want to check with Carl Schofield since he is really the 2200
guru with QTR.


Roger

rlsopher@...
http://deCorrales.com

Roger,

I use a VM curve because I have a regular (not Eboni) black, two greys
and a tonner. I'm printing on glossy because this is the black I had
in my 1160. A cart with Eboni is 'curing' overnight for matte tests
tomorrow.

I have no problems with QPR, getting a handle on knowing that the
curves are properly loaded is another matter. BTW, in your message you
referred to toner as worm toner. I was under the impression that -grey
is just black and the greys and -toned curve adds the bluish toner
which would 'cool' the print. S my assumption that Curve1=grey,
Curve2=none and 100/0 in QPR should produce quite warm print without
any toner.

When I mess up thing during testing I use the following procedure to
get things back on track:

  
 1. run-quadprofile
 2. drag/drop 1160-vm-grey.txt into terminal window
 3. edit /etc/cups/ppd/QUAD1160.ppd to add *ripCurve1 1160-vm-grey: ""
    after *ripCurve1 - /None; "" in the Curve1 section.
    I'm not adding 1160-vm-toned in Curve2 section for simplicity.
    Also I'm not adding -cal-gray-calib etc because I don't have those 
    curves.
 4. run Webmin, select -grey as default Curve1, none for Curve2, Save.
    After this step my QUAD1160.ppd in /etc/cups/ppd shows -grey as      
    DefaultripCurve1 and my manual entry dissapears ( I quess this is 
    to be expected)

Is there anything else I can run to make sure that my curve is 
loaded ?

Also, to go back to my previous post, how can I run calibration
routine just with QPR. I believe the calibration calls for color space
settings which would require something like PS ?

I'm playing with 1160 rather than 2200 to get my feet wet (sure I am)
and to leave 2200/WinXP/PS/IP setup as areference point.
Connecting my 220 to a fedora box would mess up my workflow.

Roman

> 
> I don't think that is a great combination for glossy paper. All of the
> curves were derived for matte paper, specifically EEM and there are
> enough differences that I am not surprised that the results are less
> than swift.
> 
> . . . 
> Roger
> 
> rlsopher@d...
> http://deCorrales.com

Ok, Now I think I have a better idea of where you are. First of all, I
would hold off making any judgments about the output of QTR until you have
the eboni cartridge aboard. This is tough enough without having too many
variables to control. So to start with I would go with matte setting, EEM
paper and your ink set.

  With the ink set you are using go ahead with the 1160-vm-gray and
1160-vm-toned settings.

  Calibration does not require anything but a means to print. Although it
isn't the clearest of documents do go through the information that came with
QTR. It is aimed at the Mac but is close enough to make some sense of. It
goes in two steps, first to set the amount of ink each ink position
contributes and then linearizing the curve. The first part can be eyeballed
but the second really requires reading a 21 step wedge with a densitometer.

  Please send your Quad1160.ppd to the decorrales address. If it has the
proper settings then we can go from there. A quick check you can do is to
make two prints using QPR - one at 100% vm-gray and one at 10% vm gray. If
the system is working properly you should see the 10% version as very cool
compared to the 100%. If they are the same, the system is probably
defaulting to the cups 1160 ppd.


  The problems with microbanding sounds more like an 1160 head problem than
anything to do with the driver. When it happens with my system it has always
been due to a clog. The lack of linearity is probably due to the mismatched
combination of ink, paper and the curves. When the system is optimized that
should go away.

  My guess is you are much closer than seems to be the case. Let me know how
the matte print looks.

  Roger
  Roger L Sopher
  rlsopher@...
  http:\\deCorrales.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Roger and Roman,

I know you're not able to use the curve editing "quadcurves" as
is because lpadmin is missing.  However with some simple
text editing you can fix this.  Edit /usr/local/bin/quadcurves
There's only two things needed:

1) comment out the lpadmin line and the echo's
2) the edit script immediately above writes to /tmp/quad.ppd
    -- remove the tmp name which will then write it back to original location.

You may have to run quadcurves with su privileges if the
ppd file is read-only.

Hope that helps.
Roy

Here's a copy of the modified area:

if ed -s $PPDFILE <<\!
/\*DefaultripCurve1:/,/\*CloseUI:.*ripCurve1/d
-r /tmp/quad1.tmp
/\*DefaultripCurve2:/,/\*CloseUI:.*ripCurve2/d
-r /tmp/quad2.tmp
w
q
!
then
#  if lpadmin -p $PPDBASE -P /tmp/quad.ppd
#  then
    echo "Curves Installed Successfully"
#  else
#    echo "Error: Udpate of \"${PPDFILE}\" failed"
#  fi
else
  echo "Error: Udpate of \"${PPDFILE}\" failed"
fi


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "romanatybwg" 
<romanatybwg@y...> wrote:

> 
> Roger,
> 
> I use a VM curve because I have a regular (not Eboni) black, two greys
> and a tonner. I'm printing on glossy because this is the black I had
> in my 1160. A cart with Eboni is 'curing' overnight for matte tests
> tomorrow.
> 
> I have no problems with QPR, getting a handle on knowing that the
> curves are properly loaded is another matter. BTW, in your message you
> referred to toner as worm toner. I was under the impression that -grey
> is just black and the greys and -toned curve adds the bluish toner
> which would 'cool' the print. S my assumption that Curve1=grey,
> Curve2=none and 100/0 in QPR should produce quite warm print without
> any toner.
> 
> When I mess up thing during testing I use the following procedure to
> get things back on track:
> 
>   
>  1. run-quadprofile
>  2. drag/drop 1160-vm-grey.txt into terminal window
>  3. edit /etc/cups/ppd/QUAD1160.ppd to add *ripCurve1 1160-vm-grey: ""
>     after *ripCurve1 - /None; "" in the Curve1 section.
>     I'm not adding 1160-vm-toned in Curve2 section for simplicity.
>     Also I'm not adding -cal-gray-calib etc because I don't have those 
>     curves.
>  4. run Webmin, select -grey as default Curve1, none for Curve2, Save.
>     After this step my QUAD1160.ppd in /etc/cups/ppd shows -grey as      
>     DefaultripCurve1 and my manual entry dissapears ( I quess this is 
>     to be expected)
> 
> Is there anything else I can run to make sure that my curve is 
> loaded ?
> 
> Also, to go back to my previous post, how can I run calibration
> routine just with QPR. I believe the calibration calls for color space
> settings which would require something like PS ?
> 
> I'm playing with 1160 rather than 2200 to get my feet wet (sure I am)
> and to leave 2200/WinXP/PS/IP setup as areference point.
> Connecting my 220 to a fedora box would mess up my workflow.
> 
> Roman
> > 
> > I don't think that is a great combination for glossy paper. All of the
> > curves were derived for matte paper, specifically EEM and there are
> > enough differences that I am not surprised that the results are less
> > than swift.
> > 
> > . . . 
> > Roger
> > 
> > rlsopher@d...
> > http://deCorrales.com

-----Original Message-----

  From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@...]
  Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 7:00 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR2 on Fedora, creating and loading curves
question



  Roger and Roman,

  I know you're not able to use the curve editing "quadcurves" as
  is because lpadmin is missing.  However with some simple
  text editing you can fix this.  Edit /usr/local/bin/quadcurves
  There's only two things needed:

  1) comment out the lpadmin line and the echo's
  2) the edit script immediately above writes to /tmp/quad.ppd
      -- remove the tmp name which will then write it back to original
location.

  You may have to run quadcurves with su privileges if the
  ppd file is read-only.

  Hope that helps.
  Roy

  Here's a copy of the modified area:

  if ed -s $PPDFILE <<\!
  /\*DefaultripCurve1:/,/\*CloseUI:.*ripCurve1/d
  -r /tmp/quad1.tmp
  /\*DefaultripCurve2:/,/\*CloseUI:.*ripCurve2/d
  -r /tmp/quad2.tmp
  w
  q
  !
  then
  #  if lpadmin -p $PPDBASE -P /tmp/quad.ppd
  #  then
      echo "Curves Installed Successfully"
  #  else
  #    echo "Error: Udpate of \"${PPDFILE}\" failed"
  #  fi
  else
    echo "Error: Udpate of \"${PPDFILE}\" failed"
  fi

   Thanks,

  Roger


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Long time lurker here...ready to jump in.

I've tried Clayton Jones excellent tutorial on Black Only printing (with my
2200), and found the results pretty good. I'm ready to try to move to a less
dotty print (although dots can be ok for the right print).

I'd like to leave well-enough alone and use my 2200 for color output; I'm
hesitant to use a RIP with color ink...I'm going to be selling this prints
to wedding clients and gallery patrons and I feel more comfortable using
mainly black/grey ink over the long haul. Horses for courses and all that.

So, my best options seem to be a 1280 or a 2000p; either with MIS UT-2 ink
or Piezo ink. The 2000p is attractive mainly because they are cheap right
now. Cheap, my friends, is good.

So here are the questions:

1280 vs 2000p
------------------
* 1280 way faster printing? Is the 2000p painfully slow?

* 2000p is a pigment printer, may be less clog-prone?


Ink schmink
-----------------
* can I use an empty MIS CIS 2000p system with Piezo inks and a custom ICC
profile? I only mention this because it might be a cheaper way into the CIS
Piezo system...I'm a dummy when it comes to ICC vs Piezo's ICC
implementation. I quote from an inkjetmall.com description of the Piezo ICC
as "a new type of industry standard ICC profile which has been invented by
Piezography". Ink me confused.

* The main advantage of the MIS ink is that you can tone prints the way you
like them, correct? Vs. the 'one ink = one tone" Piezo plan.

* Has anyone used MIS UT2 with a 2000p (i.e. how about the Quad Tone Rip and
the 1280 profile with the 2000p)? BTW I read all the 2000p/UT2 archives and
nobody really had an answer at the time of writing (approx dec 03)

* In the maze of the MIS website, I can't seem to find UT2 ink for the
2000p, but I'm assuming I can just buy some and pour it into their CIS
system.

pant...pant...pant...wheeze...all done

Best,

-David Ray Carson
web: http://www.davidraycarson.com/

David,

>1280 vs 2000p

For the UT2 -- or any inkset -- I'd go with a printer that is supported by
pre-made curves unless this is something you've done and feel comfortable
with.

The 1280 and UT2 have a number of such pre-made curves; I do not support the
2000p.  I know of no one else who has made the control curves.

>* 2000p is a pigment printer, may be less clog-prone?

The only real differences between printers made for pigs and those made for
dyes is that the pigment printers do more cleaning cycles automatically --
like longer ones when they are turned on, etc.  Many people have been
printing pigs with 1280s for a long time with few if any problems.  I would
not favor the 2000p over the 1280 because of this.

If you are going to print glossy paper, do remove the pizza wheels from the
1280.  (See for example http://www.inkjetart.com/pizza/ -- it's easy.)

>* The main advantage of the MIS ink is that you can tone prints the way you
>like them, correct? Vs. the 'one ink = one tone" Piezo plan.

The obvious advantages of the UT2 inkset that occur to me are: 

(1) Control over tone.  This is not just to get different tones in the
overall print, but also to profile specific papers.  Some papers print cold
in the shadows, some don't.  With the variable tone you can even out the
printing tones.  With a monotone you're stuck with what the paper delivers.


Using Photoshop curves to control tones also allows split-toning within a
single print.

Because the control method is open and free, you can profile a new paper or
change the tones yourself immediately without paying or waiting for anyone
else.  

(2)  Print on glossy paper.  UT2 not only allows this, but it does so
without the need to change black inks.  The glossy papers (I especially like
the Semigloss or pearl surfaces) with a protective spray that reduces the
surface differential reflections & "bronzing" made a dramatic and washable
medium that can be very good for certain display purposes.  Piezo ink is not
glossy paper compatible.

(3)  MIS bulk ink is cheap -- a great bargain.

And, of course, I am totally unbiased.  ;-)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

Roger, I sent to emails to you decorrales address.
Hope they will shed some light.

thank you,

Roman
ps Roy, thanks for the patch works great.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roger L Sopher"
<rlsopher@c...> wrote:
> 
>   Ok, Now I think I have a better idea of where you are. First of

Paul,

> The 1280 and UT2 have a number of such pre-made curves; I do not 
support the

Is it possible to softproof with the UT2 inkset?  I've read the MIS 
site workflows using curves or epson print driver and wasn't sure 
how to get an accurate preview before printing.  

I'm assuming the piezo system's use of icc profiles allows for this 
previewing, which seems advantageous.

I have a 1280 and am contemplating on which quadtone system to buy 
into.

Thanks in advance.

-Kev

You can make your own softproof icc profiles for any B&W printing 
workflow.  See:
http://www.harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html

On Wednesday, February 25, 2004, at 02:31  AM, Kevin wrote:

> Paul,
>
>> The 1280 and UT2 have a number of such pre-made curves; I do not
> support the
>
> Is it possible to softproof with the UT2 inkset?  I've read the MIS
> site workflows using curves or epson print driver and wasn't sure
> how to get an accurate preview before printing.
>
> I'm assuming the piezo system's use of icc profiles allows for this
> previewing, which seems advantageous.
>
> I have a 1280 and am contemplating on which quadtone system to buy
> into.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -Kev

Kevin,

Roy has done some very interesting work on the soft proofing issue, as noted
in the post, below.

To be honest, I just match the grayscale image on the monitor to the print.
Since the photos are mostly monotones, I have not felt the next step of
matching the tones (color hues).  Frankly, given the monitor I use, it would
probably be an exercise in frustration anyway.  I always do virtually all
editing in grayscale and save that file.  I never know until I print which
tone or inkset I'm going to use, so editing and saving an RGB file that had
a curve applied would wreck the file for future use.  So, bottom line, in my
approach, the conversion to RGB and application of the curves, where false
colors appear on the monitor, is just part of the printing process, not the
editing process.

To match the monitor's grayscale image to the print, I use a Photoshop
custom dot gain curve.  That procedure is explained on my information web
page, the second URL below.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/ 



_______________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 7:17 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 2000p or 1280, piezo or mis? Break it down...

You can make your own softproof icc profiles for any B&W printing 
workflow.  See:
http://www.harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html

On Wednesday, February 25, 2004, at 02:31  AM, Kevin wrote:

> Paul,
>
>> The 1280 and UT2 have a number of such pre-made curves; I do not
> support the
>
> Is it possible to softproof with the UT2 inkset?  I've read the MIS
> site workflows using curves or epson print driver and wasn't sure
> how to get an accurate preview before printing.
>
> I'm assuming the piezo system's use of icc profiles allows for this
> previewing, which seems advantageous.
>
> I have a 1280 and am contemplating on which quadtone system to buy
> into.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -Kev




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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <kfj_98@y...> wrote:
> Paul,
> 
> > The 1280 and UT2 have a number of such pre-made curves; I do not 
> support the
> 
> Is it possible to softproof with the UT2 inkset?  I've read the MIS 
> site workflows using curves or epson print driver and wasn't sure 
> how to get an accurate preview before printing.  
> 
> I'm assuming the piezo system's use of icc profiles allows for this 
> previewing, which seems advantageous.
> 
> I have a 1280 and am contemplating on which quadtone system to buy 
> into.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> -Kev

As far as which printer to pick, I'd almost certainly pick a 1280 over a 2000p.
Not that the 2000p is a bad printer but it's somewhat of an orphan now.
The 1280 is by far the more popular printer for using custom quadtone inks.  
For both piezo and mis the 1280 is in the forefront of support.

The piezo inks are very good quality but you are limited in color tone to
whichever ink you select.  I.e an inkset is either warm, cool, selenium, ...
The MIS variable tone UT2 inks are very versatile in that one inkset can produce
many color tones from cool to neutral to warm to sepia.  That's a very nice
feature for different subjects and different papers. 

Whether one is running Windows or Mac OS 9 or Mac OS X might influence
some of your decisions too.  The Piezo ICC system should run on all systems
and give you soft proofing but there seem to be some people on Mac OS X
who aren't able to get the best results yet.  You can use Paul Roark's curves
with MIS UT2 inks on any system but there isn't a builtin soft proofing.
I've developed the QuadToneRIP system which will only run on OS X.  There
are builtin profiles for UT2 inks on the 1270 that I'm pretty sure work on
the 1280 as well.  There is also builtin soft proofing with these profiles.

-- Actually you can download and see these soft proofing profiles from my
website and see the capability of the UT2 inks and QuadToneRIP before
making any purchases.

Roy

Roy Harrington
QuadToneRIP
www.harrington.com

Thanks for your replies.  (fwiw, I have a 1280 and winXP)

> Roy has done some very interesting work on the soft proofing 
issue, as noted
> in the post, below.

Roy : Thanks for the response.  When are you porting the RIP to 
Windows, so i can use it? :)  I assume the profiles generated by 
that system aren't be portable over to my winXP/1280 setup, are they?

Paul :

> To be honest, I just match the grayscale image on the monitor to 
the print.

I wonder if this will be easier to do for greyscale than color.  I 
have some experience with the ColorVision callibration suite and 
always have a bit of frustration when it comes to eyeballing 
comparisons between print/monitor.  Because of this, I feel paranoid 
about going with the less accurate (or just more reliant on me) way 
of doing things. :)

> To match the monitor's grayscale image to the print, I use a 
Photoshop
> custom dot gain curve.  That procedure is explained on my 
information web
> page, the second URL below.

Thanks for the information and developing the resource.  

I guess I can just give it a go and see how I can match the 
results.  I am assuming eliminating test prints is perhaps an 
unreasonable goal, but I guess it's just up to me to see how "good" 
I am at my comparisons and image editing.

The MIS vs. Piezo price difference is very appealing, but not if I, 
as a novice digital printamaker can't get what I subjectively think 
are accurate prints easily.  Ok, maybe that's unreasonable again. :)

To give some context, I am a working photog that would like to 
produce some archival, fine art b&w prints.

Thanks,

-Kev

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <kfj_98@y...> wrote:
> Thanks for your replies.  (fwiw, I have a 1280 and winXP)
> 
> > Roy has done some very interesting work on the soft proofing 
> issue, as noted
> > in the post, below.
> 
> Roy : Thanks for the response.  When are you porting the RIP to 
> Windows, so i can use it? :)  I assume the profiles generated by 
> that system aren't be portable over to my winXP/1280 setup, are they?

Kevin,

I'm slowly working on Windows to figure out its idiosyncrasies. 
Unfortunately I don't have lots of extra time.

The SoftProofs I've done, work on any system, but they are JUST soft proofs.
They don't play any role in actually making prints.  In the color world
a profile can be used both for printing and for proofing, but with 
quadtone inks they are completely different things.  So at this point they
would only be interesting on windows in that they show what the inkset looks like.

Someone with an Eye-One and windows could create softproofs of the
Paul Roark curves using the info I wrote up.  And as Paul said you can do
your own by eyeball and a custom dot gain curve  -- this gets you quite
a ways towards a useful proof.

Roy

> 
> Paul :
> 
> > To be honest, I just match the grayscale image on the monitor to 
> the print.
> 
> I wonder if this will be easier to do for greyscale than color.  I 
> have some experience with the ColorVision callibration suite and 
> always have a bit of frustration when it comes to eyeballing 
> comparisons between print/monitor.  Because of this, I feel paranoid 
> about going with the less accurate (or just more reliant on me) way 
> of doing things. :)
> 
> > To match the monitor's grayscale image to the print, I use a 
> Photoshop
> > custom dot gain curve.  That procedure is explained on my 
> information web
> > page, the second URL below.
> 
> Thanks for the information and developing the resource.  
> 
> I guess I can just give it a go and see how I can match the 
> results.  I am assuming eliminating test prints is perhaps an 
> unreasonable goal, but I guess it's just up to me to see how "good" 
> I am at my comparisons and image editing.
> 
> The MIS vs. Piezo price difference is very appealing, but not if I, 
> as a novice digital printamaker can't get what I subjectively think 
> are accurate prints easily.  Ok, maybe that's unreasonable again. :)
> 
> To give some context, I am a working photog that would like to 
> produce some archival, fine art b&w prints.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Kev

Kevin wrote-
"To give some context, I am a working photog that would like to 
produce some archival, fine art b&w prints."

I also would like to make archival b/w prints.  I own a 2000p so I 
am deciding between the piezo and mis inks.  My question is 
regarding the fading and archival qualities of these inks.  Any 
input and personal experiences would be appreciated.  Is there 
really a significant difference between piezo and mis inks in the 
archival/fading issues?  Or is this more just hype?  Thanks,
Saulius

"Many manufacturers state that there inks will last "X" amount of 
years. But what they don't tell you is that the longevity rating is 
based solely on estimates in small doses of fluorescent lighting and 
allow a fade rate of 30%. This will explain why competing inks said 
to last "100 years" turn brown and fade within months. PiezoTones 
were developed to produce less than discernible fade (5%).

On the inkjetmall site Look closely on our 1000 hour Xenon tests 
which are 250% longer than industry norm. Xenon includes the full 
spectrum of light. They give a realistic view of what happens to an 
ink in sunlight, fluorescent and tungsten, and our tests vary the 
humidity from 20-90%. Real world conditions and real world data. See 
for yourself, how our inks stack up against competing brands. Look 
closely at how three companies produce a very similar ink (Warm 
Neutral). Only PiezoTone inks have non-discernible light-fastness

Our opinion is that the 30% fade rate allowed by RIT and Wilhelm is 
too generous to our industry. While it makes for impressive ratings, 
it does not meet users expectations. Users constantly see that inks 
rated at 50 years and even 100 years are changing within months. 
What they are seeing is perceptible amounts of fade and color 
shifting. While Xenon tests do not attempt to indicate a number of 
years that one can expect, they do indicate a level of performance 
that one can expect. They are especially effective at looking at 
products in comparison. PiezoTones are designed to perform without 
perceptible fade and color shifting in equivalent tests which give 
greater than 100 year longevity ratings to inks which have 
perceptible amounts of fade. As tempting as it is, we refrain from 
interpolating our less than perceptible fade into years. We're happy 
with less than perceptible fade. We'll let the other brands state 
their years and let you draw the comparisons."