Digital BW, The Print

Hi all... I installed a set of EZ B&W warm with Eboni black in a C84 printer last night.  
On the first test print, the detail came out great but there was horizontal banding.  I 
did a nozzle cleaning cycle and printed again.  On the second print, the banding had 
disappeared but the low mid to shadow detail was crushed.

These are the settings I used:

Document: 1.8 gamma (Mac)
Print Space: Same as source

Printer Settings: Heavyweight Matte Paper, Best Photo, No Color Management

Any thoughts?
Ed

Try Color Controls instead of No Color Adjustment.

I've never seen C84 output with the EZ inks.  The printer I set up was the
C82.  MIS did the C84 on its own.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/ 

-----Original Message-----
From: edrudolpho [mailto:erudolph@...] 
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 9:00 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] UT EZ B&W on C84

Hi all... I installed a set of EZ B&W warm with Eboni black in a C84 printer
last night.  
On the first test print, the detail came out great but there was horizontal
banding.  I 
did a nozzle cleaning cycle and printed again.  On the second print, the
banding had 
disappeared but the low mid to shadow detail was crushed.

These are the settings I used:

Document: 1.8 gamma (Mac)
Print Space: Same as source

Printer Settings: Heavyweight Matte Paper, Best Photo, No Color Management

Any thoughts?
Ed




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"Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Try Color Controls instead of No Color Adjustment.
> I've never seen C84 output with the EZ inks.  The printer I set up
was the C82.  MIS did the C84 on its own.
==================
Paul,

I was considering getting the EZ inks for my C84.  I would appreciate
your comments on:

1.  Buying a C82 (I've got a local source at a good price) instead of
trying the EZ inks in my C84. Would I have better "beginners luck"
with the c82 and the EZ inks vs the C84 and the same inks?

2.  Best choice/best practices for a non-wide format, letter/A4 
printer workflow with the EZ inks. (From what I can tell, all 4 carts
have the same density Black ink and the results using the epson
standard driver to print as color yield the equivalent of a BO
print--since you are using all black inks--just better quality than bo
using only the black cart)

I've done BO and color ink B&W printing with the stock epson inks
using the Power Retouche B&Wplugin at:

http://www.powerretouche.com/Black-white_plugin_introduction.htm

and have generally been pleased with the control I have over the image
and the prints - except for occasional black ink splatters from excess
ink on my prints.

I aspire to 8x10ish B&W prints on EEM or the new Espon smooth paper
using a 4-ink printer and the standard espon driver. 

I thank you and any others on the list for your comments in advance.

John Driggers
Seattle, WA

John,

I just received some prints from MIS that were done on the C84 with the EZ
inks, and they look great.  If you already have the C84, I'd give that a
try.  I will get one in a few days to try it also.

The C82/84 ink setup is to have a matte or photo (glossy paper) black in the
usual spot.  Then the 3 color carts all have the same lighter gray inks in
them.  By building up density with 3 light inks, the print is much smoother
than if the black ink alone is used.

There are 2 tones of gray ink -- neutral and warm (pure carbon).  You can
get intermediate tones by putting in a mix of the carts.  For example, one
warm cart in the yellow spot gives a "neutral-warm" tone that some prefer.

The workflow is very easy.  Use a grayscale file and print it trough the
Epson driver in the usual manner.  Use Best Photo and turn off High Speed
for the best image.  The question is whether to have color controls checked
of check ICM-No Color Adjustment.  The No Color Adjustment makes denser
prints.  With the C82, I thought I had the best results in that mode.  With
the C84, it sounds like the "Color Controls" setting works better.

I think you'll be pleased with what that little printer can do.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
_________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: jsdriggers [mailto:jsdriggers@...] 
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 10:49 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] UT EZ B&W on C84

 "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Try Color Controls instead of No Color Adjustment.
> I've never seen C84 output with the EZ inks.  The printer I set up
was the C82.  MIS did the C84 on its own.
==================
Paul,

I was considering getting the EZ inks for my C84.  I would appreciate
your comments on:

1.  Buying a C82 (I've got a local source at a good price) instead of
trying the EZ inks in my C84. Would I have better "beginners luck"
with the c82 and the EZ inks vs the C84 and the same inks?

2.  Best choice/best practices for a non-wide format, letter/A4 
printer workflow with the EZ inks. (From what I can tell, all 4 carts
have the same density Black ink and the results using the epson
standard driver to print as color yield the equivalent of a BO
print--since you are using all black inks--just better quality than bo
using only the black cart)

I've done BO and color ink B&W printing with the stock epson inks
using the Power Retouche B&Wplugin at:

http://www.powerretouche.com/Black-white_plugin_introduction.htm

and have generally been pleased with the control I have over the image
and the prints - except for occasional black ink splatters from excess
ink on my prints.

I aspire to 8x10ish B&W prints on EEM or the new Espon smooth paper
using a 4-ink printer and the standard espon driver. 

I thank you and any others on the list for your comments in advance.

John Driggers
Seattle, WA




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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
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GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
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While waiting for the UT7 inks to become available, I found a cheap c82
and thought I'd try the UT2 family that way. In reviewing the web site
and speaking to MIS it seems between MIS information and what Paul has
stated below. There are separate bulk inks for each position (C, M and
Y) for sale on the web site and MIS says they are different inks in each
position. Whereas Paul, in his message quoted below seems (to me) to
state that the same light ink is used in each position. 

Can someone clarify?

Tom Moore


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
> Sent: March 12, 2004 10:35 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] UT EZ B&W on C84
> 
> John,
[snip]...
> The C82/84 ink setup is to have a matte or photo (glossy paper) black
in the
> usual spot.  Then the 3 color carts all have the same lighter gray
inks in
> them.  By building up density with 3 light inks, the print is much
smoother
> than if the black ink alone is used.
> 
> There are 2 tones of gray ink -- neutral and warm (pure carbon).  You
can
> get intermediate tones by putting in a mix of the carts.  For example,
one
> warm cart in the yellow spot gives a "neutral-warm" tone that some
prefer.
[snip]...
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
[snip].....

Tom,

>While waiting for the UT7 inks to become available, I found a cheap c82
>and thought I'd try the UT2 family that way.

The C82 inks are UT family, but not UT2 -- it's a monotone system.

>... There are separate bulk inks for each position (C, M and
>Y) for sale on the web site and MIS says they are different inks in each
>position.

>Whereas Paul, in his message quoted below seems (to me) to
>state that the same light ink is used in each position. 

The same ink is used in each color position.  However, the chip that is in
the cart has position information in it (until it is used).  So, people who
buy pre-filled cartridges have to buy 3 different carts and chips.  

If a CFS is used, you could buy a single bottle of bulk ink to feed the
system.  Having the separate bulk inks probably avoids confusion for those
who do not know the ink densities are the same.

By the way, my testing of the C84 indicates it prints at a higher contrast
than the C82.  The contrast slider can bring the shadows in line, but the
highlights stay lighter than my targets.  The "Contrast -15" print, however,
closely matches some of the less expensive LCD monitors in the house, but
not my CRT.  So, Epson may have set up the C84 with the assumption most
users would have LCDs.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

____________________________



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
> Sent: March 12, 2004 10:35 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] UT EZ B&W on C84
> 
> John,
[snip]...
> The C82/84 ink setup is to have a matte or photo (glossy paper) black
in the
> usual spot.  Then the 3 color carts all have the same lighter gray
inks in
> them.  By building up density with 3 light inks, the print is much
smoother
> than if the black ink alone is used.
> 
> There are 2 tones of gray ink -- neutral and warm (pure carbon).  You
can
> get intermediate tones by putting in a mix of the carts.  For example,
one
> warm cart in the yellow spot gives a "neutral-warm" tone that some
prefer.
[snip]...
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
[snip].....





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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
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DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
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Paul Roask wrote:
	"By the way, my testing of the C84 indicates it prints at a higher
contrast
> than the C82.  The contrast slider can bring the shadows in line, but the
> highlights stay lighter than my targets.  The "Contrast -15" print,
> however,
> closely matches some of the less expensive LCD monitors in the house, but
> not my CRT.  So, Epson may have set up the C84 with the assumption most
> users would have LCDs."
> 
Paul - So you would chose "color controls" and then adjust the "constrast"
slider? What effect do you think adjusting the "saturation" slider would
have on the C84? I haven't dared yet to adjust any of the ink position
sliders, have you tried this on the C84 to the point where the effects can
be predicted?

Cheers,
George

George,

With the C84 I recommend using Best Photo, Color Controls, Plain Paper, and
slow speed.  I would slide the Contrast slider back to -15 or until the
amount of detail in the print matches your monitor.  (I don't think
Saturation accomplishes much.)

Interestingly, with the Plain Paper setting the C84 does not under-print the
black ink with color inks.  As such, it has as good a dmax as the other
Epson printers.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

_______________________

-----Original Message-----
From: George Le Masurier [mailto:george.lemasurier@...] 
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 4:40 PM
To: 'DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] UT EZ B&W on C84 (Paul?)

	Paul Roask wrote:
	"By the way, my testing of the C84 indicates it prints at a higher
contrast
> than the C82.  The contrast slider can bring the shadows in line, but the
> highlights stay lighter than my targets.  The "Contrast -15" print,
> however,
> closely matches some of the less expensive LCD monitors in the house, but
> not my CRT.  So, Epson may have set up the C84 with the assumption most
> users would have LCDs."
> 
Paul - So you would chose "color controls" and then adjust the "constrast"
slider? What effect do you think adjusting the "saturation" slider would
have on the C84? I haven't dared yet to adjust any of the ink position
sliders, have you tried this on the C84 to the point where the effects can
be predicted?

Cheers,
George



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Paul Roark wrote:


> The C82 inks are UT family, but not UT2 -- it's a monotone system.

This is stretching the different meanings of tone in quad 
language to its limits and not a good advertising for a quad ink 
either ;-)

Ernst

Paul,

Thanks, I'll give this a try. Would I use the "plain paper" setting for all
papers? I use primarily EEM.

Cheers,
George

> ----------
> From: 	Paul Roark
> Reply To: 	DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 	Friday, March 19, 2004 6:14 PM
> To: 	DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: 	RE: [Digital BW] UT EZ B&W on C84 (Paul?)
> 
> George,
> 
> With the C84 I recommend using Best Photo, Color Controls, Plain Paper,
> and
> slow speed.  I would slide the Contrast slider back to -15 or until the
> amount of detail in the print matches your monitor.  (I don't think
> Saturation accomplishes much.)
> 
> Interestingly, with the Plain Paper setting the C84 does not under-print
> the
> black ink with color inks.  As such, it has as good a dmax as the other
> Epson printers.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

George,

>Would I use the "plain paper" setting for all papers? 
>I use primarily EEM.

On the C84 I probably would use the "Plain Paper" setting for all matte
papers. 

Here are the notes regarding the C84 I sent to MIS:

My testing of the C84 indicates it prints at a higher contrast than the C82.
The contrast slider can bring the shadows in line, but with matte papers the
highlights stay lighter than my targets.  With a "Contrast -15" setting,
however, a print on Epson Enhanced Matte closely matches some of the LCD
monitors that are used by most of the people in my house, although the
highlights are brighter than on my CRT.  So, Epson may have set up the C84
with the assumption most users today would have the affordable LCDs that my
family members prefer.

Interestingly, with the Plain Paper setting the C84 does not under-print the
black ink with color inks.  As such, it has as good a dmax as the more
expensive Epson printers.

So, with the C84 and matte papers I recommend using the following settings:
Best Photo, Color Controls, and "Plain Paper."  I would set the Contrast
slider back to -15 or until the amount of detail in the print shadows
matches the monitor being used.  Moving the Brightness slider to -5 also
helps, although on EEM deep shadow contrast is a bit low.

For archival paper, especially since the dmax is fine with the "Plain Paper"
setting on the C84, I recommend Epson Scrapbook paper (also known at Epson
UltraSmooth or PremierArt Fine Art Hot Press).  It prints very well with the
above settings.

With Epson Glossy Photo Paper, the C84 does a very good job with the "Glossy
Photo Paper" and "Best Photo" settings.  The print shadow detail can be
helped if the Contrast slider is set back to -10, or until the print shadow
detail matches the monitor being used.

It continues to amaze me that this little printer with the EZ B&W inks can
match the quality of systems that people pay over $1000 for.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com