Digital BW, The Print

For users of Minolta Elite 5400 scanner: Do you find that VueScan 
improves scans for B&W? I'm scanning B&W chromogenic film & slides 
for B&W prints. I'd be grateful for opinions. Thanks, Arlene

The best thing is to download the free trial version from
www.hamrick.com and see for yourself. 

I can't speak for the 5400 but I use Vuescan exclusively on my Scan
Dual II as well as my 2400 flatbed. It sure is nice have a consistent
user interface and software with two vastly different scanners. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lovelipp"
<ArleneLoveL@a...> wrote:

> For users of Minolta Elite 5400 scanner: Do you find that VueScan 
> improves scans for B&W? I'm scanning B&W chromogenic film & slides 
> for B&W prints. I'd be grateful for opinions. Thanks, Arlene

> For users of Minolta Elite 5400 scanner: Do you find that VueScan 
> improves scans for B&W? I'm scanning B&W chromogenic film & slides 
> for B&W prints. I'd be grateful for opinions. Thanks, Arlene

I really like Vuescan's film profiles, and the detailed control it gives
you over clipping of highlights and shadows. In this respect the Minolta
software is too aggressive, and lacks the neccesary profiles to render
pleasing midtones on many types of film.

On the other hand, Minolta's dust removal is much better than Vuescan's.
Vuescan will soften the image far too much, while Minolta retains all
the detail of the film while removing the dust. This may be important to
you since you're scanning chromogenics.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

> From: "Bob Michaels" <bob@...>
> Subject: Re: VueScan
>
> The best thing is to download the free trial version from
> www.hamrick.com and see for yourself.
>
> I can't speak for the 5400 but I use Vuescan exclusively on my Scan
> Dual II as well as my 2400 flatbed. It sure is nice have a consistent
> user interface and software with two vastly different scanners.
>
> Bob Michaels
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lovelipp"
> <ArleneLoveL@a...> wrote:
>> For users of Minolta Elite 5400 scanner: Do you find that VueScan
>> improves scans for B&W? I'm scanning B&W chromogenic film & slides
>> for B&W prints. I'd be grateful for opinions. Thanks, Arlene
>>

You might consider downloading a trial version from Silverfast as well.
Their different neg profiles do a very good job with B&W films.

John Toles
Dragonfly Imaging & Printing
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
http://www.dragonflyprinting.com/
http://www.dragonflygallery.ca/

I didn't want to bother Ed with this as he has enough to do keeping up with new cameras.

I am in the process of setting up VueScan for scanning Ilford FP4+ B&W 120 negatives on a Sprintscan 120.

When I choose B/W negative on the Input tab, the Colour tab only gives me only one choice - XP2 400 for Ilford film.

Anyone any comments with regard to this and what settings are advised for this film ?

Mel

Dear Mel,

The only real B&W films are a couple of Kodak ones, so you could set it to
one of those.  I find it best to do a RAW scan  and then do the
post-processing in PS.  In which case it doesn't matter much what settings
you use in Vuescan, you just collect all the data the scanner can pull from
the negative.  Most of the settings in Vuescan just throw away some of that
data, which you may regret later on.  Does that make sense to you?

Yours,

John

On 23 June 2011 12:10, Mel <chilterns@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I didn't want to bother Ed with this as he has enough to do keeping up with
> new cameras.
>
> I am in the process of setting up VueScan for scanning Ilford FP4+ B&W 120
> negatives on a Sprintscan 120.
>
> When I choose B/W negative on the Input tab, the Colour tab only gives me
> only one choice - XP2 400 for Ilford film.
>
> Anyone any comments with regard to this and what settings are advised for
> this film ?
>
> Mel
>
>  
>



-- 
John Beeching
http://johnbeeching.com/
Three Frome Artists: http://www.blurb.com/books/1395201


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John, Are you saying that a RAW scan in VueScan scans from Dmin to Dmax?  Or
do you really mean to say, output your best effort as a RAW/DNG file so you
can work on it some more later? 

Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1
Let's Talk Photography

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
Beeching
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 3:03 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] VueScan

Dear Mel,

The only real B&W films are a couple of Kodak ones, so you could set it to
one of those.  I find it best to do a RAW scan  and then do the
post-processing in PS.  In which case it doesn't matter much what settings
you use in Vuescan, you just collect all the data the scanner can pull from
the negative.  Most of the settings in Vuescan just throw away some of that
data, which you may regret later on.  Does that make sense to you?

Yours,

John

On 23 June 2011 12:10, Mel <chilterns@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I didn't want to bother Ed with this as he has enough to do keeping up
with
> new cameras.
>
> I am in the process of setting up VueScan for scanning Ilford FP4+ B&W 120
> negatives on a Sprintscan 120.
>
> When I choose B/W negative on the Input tab, the Colour tab only gives me
> only one choice - XP2 400 for Ilford film.
>
> Anyone any comments with regard to this and what settings are advised for
> this film ?
>
> Mel
>
>  
>



-- 
John Beeching
http://johnbeeching.com/
Three Frome Artists: http://www.blurb.com/books/1395201


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
Yahoo! Groups Links

After some DNG RAW scan exports of B&W negatives from Vuescan to ACR I 
would say that at least a negative to positive step should happen on 
Vuescan before the export. Makes it easier to use the tools in ACR 
properly. Of course a RAW from a scanner is not as raw as a camera 
delivers but there are some tools in ACR that make this method attractive.

In color, creating an ACR profile for the V700 scanner with Color 
Checker Passport delivered correct color checker scans but a scan of a 
Z3200 calibration target with 6 Vivera pigments had 3 of the 6 pigments 
way off. Which probably says more of the V700 lamp and Passport limited 
pigments number than off the DNG RAW route but going that route you need 
some CM measures.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Dear Mel,

It is difficult to tell exactly what Vuescan is doing.  I have been using
Vuescan for nearly 10 years and have found that I get the best results by
doing a RAW/DNG scan  and then working on it in PS.  This comes out as a
negative, which means that using ACR is not ideal, but I find that if I
invert in Vuescan I get other processing too.  As you can imagine I have
made parallel comparisons.

I don't know if that helps.

Yours,

John

On 30 June 2011 05:07, E.Neilsen <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> John, Are you saying that a RAW scan in VueScan scans from Dmin to Dmax? Or
> do you really mean to say, output your best effort as a RAW/DNG file so you
> can work on it some more later?
>
> Eric Neilsen
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> Dallas, TX 75226
>
> www.ericneilsenphotography.com
> skype me with ejprinter
> www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1
> Let's Talk Photography
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
> Beeching
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 3:03 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] VueScan
>
>
> Dear Mel,
>
> The only real B&W films are a couple of Kodak ones, so you could set it to
> one of those. I find it best to do a RAW scan and then do the
> post-processing in PS. In which case it doesn't matter much what settings
> you use in Vuescan, you just collect all the data the scanner can pull from
> the negative. Most of the settings in Vuescan just throw away some of that
> data, which you may regret later on. Does that make sense to you?
>
> Yours,
>
> John
>
> On 23 June 2011 12:10, Mel <chilterns@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > I didn't want to bother Ed with this as he has enough to do keeping up
> with
> > new cameras.
> >
> > I am in the process of setting up VueScan for scanning Ilford FP4+ B&W
> 120
> > negatives on a Sprintscan 120.
> >
> > When I choose B/W negative on the Input tab, the Colour tab only gives me
> > only one choice - XP2 400 for Ilford film.
> >
> > Anyone any comments with regard to this and what settings are advised for
> > this film ?
> >
> > Mel
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> John Beeching
> http://johnbeeching.com/
> Three Frome Artists: http://www.blurb.com/books/1395201
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO
> OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF
> ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  
>



-- 
John Beeching
http://johnbeeching.com/
Three Frome Artists: http://www.blurb.com/books/1395201


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I do a RAW export, then put the film away. Then I try various things with the RAW file, including playing with all the Vuescan settings (by opening the RAW file into Vuescan), and/or ACR, and Photoshop.

Much better and faster not to have to rescan the film to try a workflow based on exporting as negative vs. as positive, for example.

  - susan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> After some DNG RAW scan exports of B&W negatives from Vuescan to ACR I 
> would say that at least a negative to positive step should happen on 
> Vuescan before the export. Makes it easier to use the tools in ACR 
> properly. Of course a RAW from a scanner is not as raw as a camera 
> delivers but there are some tools in ACR that make this method attractive.
> 
> In color, creating an ACR profile for the V700 scanner with Color 
> Checker Passport delivered correct color checker scans but a scan of a 
> Z3200 calibration target with 6 Vivera pigments had 3 of the 6 pigments 
> way off. Which probably says more of the V700 lamp and Passport limited 
> pigments number than off the DNG RAW route but going that route you need 
> some CM measures.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

Thanks John I'm trying both methods (inverting in VueScan and inverting in my fav. editor, PWP - I only have the first CS Photoshop)

Mel

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, John Beeching <johnbeeching@...> wrote:

>
> Dear Mel,
> 
> It is difficult to tell exactly what Vuescan is doing.  I have been using
> Vuescan for nearly 10 years and have found that I get the best results by
> doing a RAW/DNG scan  and then working on it in PS.  This comes out as a
> negative, which means that using ACR is not ideal, but I find that if I
> invert in Vuescan I get other processing too.  As you can imagine I have
> made parallel comparisons.
> 
> I don't know if that helps.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> John
> 
> On 30 June 2011 05:07, E.Neilsen <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> > John, Are you saying that a RAW scan in VueScan scans from Dmin to Dmax? Or
> > do you really mean to say, output your best effort as a RAW/DNG file so you
> > can work on it some more later?
> >
> > Eric Neilsen
> > Eric Neilsen Photography
> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> > Dallas, TX 75226
> >
> > www.ericneilsenphotography.com
> > skype me with ejprinter
> > www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1
> > Let's Talk Photography
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
> > Beeching
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 3:03 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] VueScan
> >
> >
> > Dear Mel,
> >
> > The only real B&W films are a couple of Kodak ones, so you could set it to
> > one of those. I find it best to do a RAW scan and then do the
> > post-processing in PS. In which case it doesn't matter much what settings
> > you use in Vuescan, you just collect all the data the scanner can pull from
> > the negative. Most of the settings in Vuescan just throw away some of that
> > data, which you may regret later on. Does that make sense to you?
> >
> > Yours,
> >
> > John
> >
> > On 23 June 2011 12:10, Mel <chilterns@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > I didn't want to bother Ed with this as he has enough to do keeping up
> > with
> > > new cameras.
> > >
> > > I am in the process of setting up VueScan for scanning Ilford FP4+ B&W
> > 120
> > > negatives on a Sprintscan 120.
> > >
> > > When I choose B/W negative on the Input tab, the Colour tab only gives me
> > > only one choice - XP2 400 for Ilford film.
> > >
> > > Anyone any comments with regard to this and what settings are advised for
> > > this film ?
> > >
> > > Mel
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > John Beeching
> > http://johnbeeching.com/
> > Three Frome Artists: http://www.blurb.com/books/1395201
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> > page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> > and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> > YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> > GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
> > TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO
> > OR
> > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF
> > ANY
> > THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> John Beeching
> http://johnbeeching.com/
> Three Frome Artists: http://www.blurb.com/books/1395201
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Apples/oranges: one wouldn't be scanning a negative if the camera in
question had digital output. In cases where we are able to use the same lens
on both analog and digital cameras, the color rendering characteristics of
the capture media (film or ccd) still come into play, so there's no way that
I can see to state positively that raw from the camera is better than raw
from a scanner. The Vuescan instructions state that the reason one might
want to same save scans as raw output is so that all other output formats
can be generated as needed without additional scans, and not because the raw
format is 'better.' Adobe's ability to read the Vuescan raw files is a
fringe benefit.

>Of course a RAW from a scanner is not as raw as a camera delivers


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just got the VueScan Bible, good source.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 1, 2011, at 8:21 AM, Lew Schwartz wrote:

> Apples/oranges: one wouldn't be scanning a negative if the camera in
> question had digital output. In cases where we are able to use the same lens
> on both analog and digital cameras, the color rendering characteristics of
> the capture media (film or ccd) still come into play, so there's no way that
> I can see to state positively that raw from the camera is better than raw
> from a scanner. The Vuescan instructions state that the reason one might
> want to same save scans as raw output is so that all other output formats
> can be generated as needed without additional scans, and not because the raw
> format is 'better.' Adobe's ability to read the Vuescan raw files is a
> fringe benefit.
> 
>> Of course a RAW from a scanner is not as raw as a camera delivers
>

Scanning BW vs. Camera Raw

            When scanning BW film, all scanners output desaturated RGB
information. Of the three RGB channels, blue contains the most noise and red
the lowest resolution. Whilst I don't use Vuescan, there is an advantage in
scanning to the "DNG" format. The scanner will/should output the full range
of shades based on the scanner's capabilities and allow ACR or Lightroom to
interpret the results. I can imagine that no curves are applied so the
images will need to have curves applied otherwise the output would be very
flat.

            The product(s) I use are Silverfast AI and HDR do the same
thing. You output the scan from AI in the HDR format presenting a flat
output of all the information to be intrepid by HDR - which like ACR is not
destructive. The advantage here is that HDR is bundled with all the curves
for the supported film or can be modified to match the desired results - the
only difference between HDR and ACR is that HDR knows that it is working
with film.

            I use the AI/HDR combination for scanning all my negatives. This
allows me to batch scan for faster output of my two scanners and it also
allows faster image processing as no pre-scan is required.

            On the subject of scanning BW, I add Photoshop to the workflow.
In Photoshop, I normally turn off the R and B channels and use the
desaturated green channel for final output. Another technique I may use is
to kill the red channel, add blur to the blue channel and sharpen the green.

            Of course, everyone's workflow will be different based on their
perception of the desired output.

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lew
Schwartz
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 6:21 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] VueScan

 

  

Apples/oranges: one wouldn't be scanning a negative if the camera in
question had digital output. In cases where we are able to use the same lens
on both analog and digital cameras, the color rendering characteristics of
the capture media (film or ccd) still come into play, so there's no way that
I can see to state positively that raw from the camera is better than raw
from a scanner. The Vuescan instructions state that the reason one might
want to same save scans as raw output is so that all other output formats
can be generated as needed without additional scans, and not because the raw
format is 'better.' Adobe's ability to read the Vuescan raw files is a
fringe benefit.

>Of course a RAW from a scanner is not as raw as a camera delivers

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 07/01/2011 02:21 PM, Lew Schwartz wrote:
> Apples/oranges: one wouldn't be scanning a negative if the camera in
> question had digital output. In cases where we are able to use the same lens
> on both analog and digital cameras, the color rendering characteristics of
> the capture media (film or ccd) still come into play, so there's no way that
> I can see to state positively that raw from the camera is better than raw
> from a scanner. The Vuescan instructions state that the reason one might
> want to same save scans as raw output is so that all other output formats
> can be generated as needed without additional scans, and not because the raw
> format is 'better.' Adobe's ability to read the Vuescan raw files is a
> fringe benefit.
>
>> Of course a RAW from a scanner is not as raw as a camera delivers

I did not see "better" in the line I wrote. If I would have written that 
a herring catched an hour ago is more raw than a matties herring at the 
fish shop you still should not conclude that I like one more than the 
other. The comment was made with demosaicing in mind and not a remark on 
what is better. Vuescan's RAW is not even considered raw in purist's 
views as it is more or less a Tiff with another name. Nevertheless the 
RAW export has its advantages.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

I see repeated advice to NOT apply curves to your files in the scanning
software and to use PS. Mark, What does the Vue Scan bible say about that?
The only reason I can see to follow that workflow is that you don't trust
the scanning software or you trust Adobe to handle your data better than
dedicated scanning software.  I haven't seen anyone post a test done to
verify that claim of Adobe handling data better or any other downstream
workflow image editor. I can only see that user trust the ability to control
the image editing software more than the scanning software.  
 
 
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1
Let's Talk Photography
 


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On 07/01/2011 03:13 PM, Bob Rapp wrote:

>              On the subject of scanning BW, I add Photoshop to the workflow.
> In Photoshop, I normally turn off the R and B channels and use the
> desaturated green channel for final output. Another technique I may use is
> to kill the red channel, add blur to the blue channel and sharpen the green.
>
>              Of course, everyone's workflow will be different based on their
> perception of the desired output.

Bob,

Interesting, I was actually doing the RAW road to see whether I could 
get better color control on reflective scans and shortly after that to 
see whether it would be possible to do deconvolution sharpening in ACR 
on B&W film scans. The noise reduction in ACR is not intended for 
(aliased) film grain so I do not expect a good result for that. Normally 
I use Neat Image in PS4 and that is quite good, better than what I got 
from Vuescan's own noise reduction. In a way I need good grain reduction 
and deconvolution sharpening in that order or possibly at the same time. 
It is possible that a split color route made from the RAW could be an 
answer in this case. Is the green channel the sharpest or is it a 
compromise between the red and the blue, the last sharper but noisy? I 
know that Vuescan's B&W routine favors the green channel in the 
conversion. I have a suspicion that the Epson V700 scanner optics are 
diffraction limited and would like to try a deconvolution sharpening 
directed to reverse that effect. Not covered in ACR. Just curiosity. My 
Nikon 8000 is very different so could use another approach.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
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|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

_____  

Ernst,

I have only used dedicated film scanners (Minolta 5400 and Microtek 120tf)
and I have heard that the mirror and platen glass reduce the capabilities of
flat-bed scanners. Microtek did have flat-bed scanners with two optical
systems - one of which was for film scanned in a different compartment.

It is too bad that quality film scanners are not available for purchase now
and I have heard that Nikon will no longer produce scanners once the present
models are sold out.

Choosing the green channel has been recommended by several sources and,
based on my testing (by examining the content of each of the three channels)
green is definitely sharper in my scanners. Other scanners may have sharper
optics in the blue or red channels but to hold high resolution in all three
channels is a big ask.

If you are doing volume scanning, I would recommend you look at Silverfast.
It does a remarkable job with everything I have thrown at it from 1940's
Kodachrome to  Pan F. After scanning well over 15,000 images, the cost per
scan plus the speed of operation, for me, makes it a no-brainer.

I too, can vouch for Neat Image but use it only on images that require lots
of noise reduction or when I am too lazy to take the time in Photoshop or
ACR.

Deconvolution really only works well with digital camera raw files and is
easily handled by ACR 6. It counters the affect of the AA filter. Set the
radius to .5 and amount to 40 and above. Of course, noise will be introduced
so I may apply light noise reduction.

Interesting, I was actually doing the RAW road to see whether I could 
get better color control on reflective scans and shortly after that to 
see whether it would be possible to do deconvolution sharpening in ACR 
on B&W film scans. The noise reduction in ACR is not intended for 
(aliased) film grain so I do not expect a good result for that. Normally 
I use Neat Image in PS4 and that is quite good, better than what I got 
from Vuescan's own noise reduction. In a way I need good grain reduction 
and deconvolution sharpening in that order or possibly at the same time. 
It is possible that a split color route made from the RAW could be an 
answer in this case. Is the green channel the sharpest or is it a 
compromise between the red and the blue, the last sharper but noisy? I 
know that Vuescan's B&W routine favors the green channel in the 
conversion. I have a suspicion that the Epson V700 scanner optics are 
diffraction limited and would like to try a deconvolution sharpening 
directed to reverse that effect. Not covered in ACR. Just curiosity. My 
Nikon 8000 is very different so could use another approach.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

| Dinkla Grafische Techniek |
| www.pigment-print.com |
| ( unvollendet ) |





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