Digital BW, The Print

Purchased the new R800 from Epson. Only printed BW so far on EEM 
using Windows. Tried printing using "monochrome" and results were 
disappointing to say the least. Print came out so cold it was almost 
blue. Downloaded the Gregtag Macbeth profiles included on the 
supplied CD and printed a 2.2 gamma greyscale 21 step/gradient using 
color management and Relative Colormetric rendering with BP 
compensation OFF at the "Best Photo" setting. Greyscale was neutral 
but blocked up over 85% black. Tried again, this time with BP 
compensation ON and got a neutral wedge but blocked up over 90% 
black. Tried again with BP compensatin ON with Perceptual rendering 
and voila, a beautifully neutral greyscale with every 5% wedge 
discernable from 0 to 100% and a nice smooth gradient. I was ready.

Printed some files and results were excellent, and I mean fine art 
quality excellent. Metamerism was less than 10% of that on my 2200.
You have to really know what you're looking for to even see it, in 
fact I had to rapidly move the print back and forth between daylight 
and tungsten to see it. You could sell prints from this printer at an 
outdoor venue (art fair) and be confident that the print will appear 
the same when taken home and viewed under incandescent lighting; that 
is, if you were shown the print cold in either daylight or tungsten 
you would not see any metamerism, in my opinion.

I have the ability to make a custom profile at home with some pretty 
fancy equipment/software but don't think I'll bother, that's how good 
the included profiles are.

I then converted a greyscale file to duotone in Photoshop and 
customized an ever so slight tint application thru the duotone 
curves. Out came a print exactly like on my screen with no unwanted 
hue changes across tones. Tried a heavier tint and results were the 
same. Its because of the lack of metamerism in tinted prints that 
obviously use all inks that makes me think there's something 
different about these inks that minimizes metamerism, and that its 
not all in the driver.

If it sounds like I'm enthusiastic about this printer, well I am, and 
I haven't even printed color yet with the gloss optimizer. Clearly 
the downside of the printer is its small size. But here we have a 
printer that prints archival fine art quality BW out of the box, 
prints color glossy without bronzing (gloss optimizer), has increased 
gamut, no need to swap out cartridges when switching between photo 
and matte black inks, and I can drive down to the local store to get 
more ink when I need it (major manufacturer distribution).

Put this technology in a 7600-type printer, and wow, put me on the 
waiting list!

Hi Sandy,
which GretagMacbeth system are you using?

Ed R.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"sanfo2003" <SandyCornelius@c...> wrote:
> Purchased the new R800 from Epson. Only printed BW so far 
on EEM 
> using Windows. Tried printing using "monochrome" and 
results were 
> disappointing to say the least. Print came out so cold it was 
almost 
> blue. Downloaded the Gregtag Macbeth profiles included on 
the 
> supplied CD and printed a 2.2 gamma greyscale 21 
step/gradient using 
> color management and Relative Colormetric rendering with BP 
> compensation OFF at the "Best Photo" setting. Greyscale was 
neutral 
> but blocked up over 85% black. Tried again, this time with BP 
> compensation ON and got a neutral wedge but blocked up 
over 90% 
> black. Tried again with BP compensatin ON with Perceptual 
rendering 
> and voila, a beautifully neutral greyscale with every 5% wedge 
> discernable from 0 to 100% and a nice smooth gradient. I was 
ready.
> 
> Printed some files and results were excellent, and I mean fine 
art 
> quality excellent. Metamerism was less than 10% of that on my 
2200.
> You have to really know what you're looking for to even see it, in 
> fact I had to rapidly move the print back and forth between 
daylight 
> and tungsten to see it. You could sell prints from this printer at 
an 
> outdoor venue (art fair) and be confident that the print will 
appear 
> the same when taken home and viewed under incandescent 
lighting; that 
> is, if you were shown the print cold in either daylight or 
tungsten 
> you would not see any metamerism, in my opinion.
> 
> I have the ability to make a custom profile at home with some 
pretty 
> fancy equipment/software but don't think I'll bother, that's how 
good 
> the included profiles are.
> 
> I then converted a greyscale file to duotone in Photoshop and 
> customized an ever so slight tint application thru the duotone 
> curves. Out came a print exactly like on my screen with no 
unwanted 
> hue changes across tones. Tried a heavier tint and results 
were the 
> same. Its because of the lack of metamerism in tinted prints 
that 
> obviously use all inks that makes me think there's something 
> different about these inks that minimizes metamerism, and 
that its 
> not all in the driver.
> 
> If it sounds like I'm enthusiastic about this printer, well I am, 
and 
> I haven't even printed color yet with the gloss optimizer. Clearly 
> the downside of the printer is its small size. But here we have a 
> printer that prints archival fine art quality BW out of the box, 
> prints color glossy without bronzing (gloss optimizer), has 
increased 
> gamut, no need to swap out cartridges when switching 
between photo 
> and matte black inks, and I can drive down to the local store to 
get 
> more ink when I need it (major manufacturer distribution).
> 
> Put this technology in a 7600-type printer, and wow, put me on 
the 
> waiting list!

sanfo2003 wrote:
>Purchased the new R800 from Epson. Only printed BW so far on EEM
>using Windows.  [shortened]

Showing my ignorance here, you're talking about using it in full color 
mode, right?
If so, it sounds very impressive.

-Don M

> which GretagMacbeth system are you using?

The profiles provided by Epson on the CD included with the printer 
are very accurate and were, I understand, created by Epson using 
state of the art Gretag Macbeth profiling equipment and software. I 
did not make the profiles.

By coincidence I also happen to have some Gretag Macbeth stuff but 
haven't used it yet to create any custom profiles for this printer 
because so far I'm happy with the profiles provided by Epson.

I just learned of this printer and its new technology yesterday.  Has 
anyone heard of when a large format version might come out?

James Irelan

>you're talking about using it in full color mode, right?

Yup, using the full color mode and getting neutral prints. The beauty 
of using the full color mode is that you can tint however you like. 
The fact that neutral prints are possible in the full color mode is 
an indication of the accuracy of the profiles provided by Epson. 

If your photo software will not allow color management it will be 
difficult to get a neutral print. Fortunately Photoshop is fully 
color management capable.

Hi Sandy, I have an R800 too and was getting pretty poor results 
with B&W using the supplied profiles.  Some of my prints almost 
looked like split-toned prints.  For example, a photo of a 
skyscraper, where the windows are one value of gray and the 
exterior building shell another, would show the building as cyan 
and the windows as yellowish.  This was using the Premium 
Glossy profile.  I'll try again, using EEM, the EEM profile, 
Perceptual intent and Black Compensation On.  As of this 
moment, the best result I've gotten is with Premium Glossy, 
Printer Color Management, and using Black rather than Color 
Printing.  This produces a cool to neutral print, with some 
metamerism.   It should be mentioned that Black Only printing is 
not possible with the current version of the R800 driver; it 
definitely uses the colored inks.



Ed Rudolph


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"sanfo2003" <SandyCornelius@c...> wrote:
> >you're talking about using it in full color mode, right?
> 
> Yup, using the full color mode and getting neutral prints. The 
beauty 
> of using the full color mode is that you can tint however you 
like. 

> The fact that neutral prints are possible in the full color mode is 
> an indication of the accuracy of the profiles provided by Epson. 
> 
> If your photo software will not allow color management it will be 
> difficult to get a neutral print. Fortunately Photoshop is fully 
> color management capable.

> From: sanfo2003 [mailto:SandyCornelius@...]
>
> Printed some files and results were excellent, and I mean fine art
> quality excellent. Metamerism was less than 10% of that on my 2200.
> You have to really know what you're looking for to even see it, in
> fact I had to rapidly move the print back and forth between daylight
> and tungsten to see it. You could sell prints from this printer at an
> outdoor venue (art fair) and be confident that the print will appear
> the same when taken home and viewed under incandescent lighting; that
> is, if you were shown the print cold in either daylight or tungsten
> you would not see any metamerism, in my opinion.
>
> If it sounds like I'm enthusiastic about this printer, well I am, and
> I haven't even printed color yet with the gloss optimizer. Clearly
> the downside of the printer is its small size. But here we have a
> printer that prints archival fine art quality BW out of the box,
> prints color glossy without bronzing (gloss optimizer), has increased
> gamut, no need to swap out cartridges when switching between photo
> and matte black inks, and I can drive down to the local store to get
> more ink when I need it (major manufacturer distribution).

How's the grain in light areas, compared to the 2200? I'm curious about this
since there are no light inks, only a very small dot size.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

sanfo2003 wrote:
> >you're talking about using it in full color mode, right?
>
>Yup, using the full color mode and getting neutral prints.

Beyond neutrality, are you satisfied with the richness of them?


-Don M

Hello all:

I visited InkJetGoodies here in Moab just yesterday.  Greg printed 
an 8 x 10 of one of my B&W files using the R800.  Unbelievable!  The 
print at first look was better than the results I'm getting with 
Piezography and MIS Full Spectrum inks!  Couldn't believe it!  Upon 
comparing to my Piezography prints at home, the Piezo. prints appear 
slightly warm and the R800 prints were dead-on neutral.  I'm still 
psyched about my piezography workflow, but as soon as the R800 goes 
wide--I'm switching.

Anyway, sounds like a large format won't be available 'til all the 
4000's are moved/sold--that's just basic marketing sense on Epson's 
part.  I would have bought one on the spot if it was 13" or wider.  

This technology definitely seems to be the answer to:  "How do I get 
fine art color and B&W prints from the same printer."  I'm sold...

Chris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, James Irelan 
<james@r...> wrote:
> I just learned of this printer and its new technology yesterday.  
Has 

> anyone heard of when a large format version might come out?
> 
> James Irelan

anyone doing any fade testing on these yet?  My concern is that while 
being able to tone prints is great, doesn't the possiblility of 
horrendous tonal shifts exist with this approach.  With a quadtone 
approach your grays will wash out, even with variable mix you'll just 
go warm, but with mixed color b&w images it seems you could go 
anywhere.

just thinking...

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sanfo2003" 
<SandyCornelius@c...> wrote:
> >you're talking about using it in full color mode, right?
> 
> Yup, using the full color mode and getting neutral prints. The 
beauty 

> of using the full color mode is that you can tint however you like. 
> The fact that neutral prints are possible in the full color mode is 
> an indication of the accuracy of the profiles provided by Epson. 
> 
> If your photo software will not allow color management it will be 
> difficult to get a neutral print. Fortunately Photoshop is fully 
> color management capable.

Hi again, Sandy... well I did try your method, using both Premium Glossy and 
Enhanced Matte papers with the appropriate profiles.  This was a file from a thin 
negative with a small amount of shadow detail.  

I found on the Enhanced Matte that, as you said, using Color printing with Color 
Management from photoshop, that the print was extremely neutral.  Perhaps a tiny bit 
of shadow detail was lost and the blacks were not very deep.  I tried again using PG 
and its profile and found that the grays would transition from yellow in the higher 
end gray to violet-toned deeper grays.  Pretty bad.  So, maybe the Premium Glossy 
Epson profile is no good.

Ed


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "edrudolpho" 
<erudolph@p...> wrote:

> Hi Sandy, I have an R800 too and was getting pretty poor results 
> with B&W using the supplied profiles.  Some of my prints almost 
> looked like split-toned prints.  For example, a photo of a 
> skyscraper, where the windows are one value of gray and the 
> exterior building shell another, would show the building as cyan 
> and the windows as yellowish.  This was using the Premium 
> Glossy profile.  I'll try again, using EEM, the EEM profile, 
> Perceptual intent and Black Compensation On.  As of this 
> moment, the best result I've gotten is with Premium Glossy, 
> Printer Color Management, and using Black rather than Color 
> Printing.  This produces a cool to neutral print, with some 
> metamerism.   It should be mentioned that Black Only printing is 
> not possible with the current version of the R800 driver; it 
> definitely uses the colored inks.
> 
> 
> 
> Ed Rudolph
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
> "sanfo2003" <SandyCornelius@c...> wrote:
> > >you're talking about using it in full color mode, right?
> > 
> > Yup, using the full color mode and getting neutral prints. The 
> beauty 
> > of using the full color mode is that you can tint however you 
> like. 
> > The fact that neutral prints are possible in the full color mode is 
> > an indication of the accuracy of the profiles provided by Epson. 
> > 
> > If your photo software will not allow color management it will be 
> > difficult to get a neutral print. Fortunately Photoshop is fully 
> > color management capable.

You probably know this already, don't you?

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/interactive/Epson%20R800/page_6.htm

J.

As I mentioned in my original post, the only paper I've tried so far 
is EEM using the "SPR800EnhMatteBstPhoto.icc" profile and using 
the "Best Photo" resolution. This combo using the settings descibed 
in the post gave me an excellent, rich BW print that I would be proud 
to enter in a contest (if my darned photography were better). I don't 
know about Premium Glossy or Semi Gloss or Luster yet. I also have 
not tried Heavyweight Matte. Just haven't had the interest yet to try 
them since EEM is my primary BW paper with Photo Rag second. Haven't 
even printed in color yet -- I just got the printer last night.

Be aware that the profiles supplied with each printer are not custom 
to that particular printer so ever so slight variations may occur 
from one printer to another due to manufacturing tolerances. "Ever so 
slight" might be a big deal when trying to get a neutral print. 
Somebody once said getting a neutral print with colored inks is like 
balancing a cue ball on the end of a pin. All I know is that the 
results on my printer using the method above gave excellent results 
on EEM. I simply put up the post as an additional piece of info for 
your consideration if you're thinking about an R800.

At 12:08 AM +0000 4/16/04, edrudolpho wrote:
>I tried again using PG
>and its profile and found that the grays would transition from 
>yellow in the higher
>end gray to violet-toned deeper grays.

At 3:08 AM +0000 4/16/04, sanfo2003 wrote:
>using the "SPR800EnhMatteBstPhoto.icc" profile and using
>the "Best Photo" resolution


Hi Ed, I got exactly the results you describe until noticing the 
"Bstphoto" in the profile name. Naturally wanting to try the new 
highest resolution I had been using Photo RPM.

My results match Sandy's with Enhanced matte. So far, Premium Glossy, 
Semi-gloss, and Luster are also spot-on neutral, and the gloss 
optimizer has been very effective although you can see something 
metamerism-like, a very slight color brozing, by looking closely at a 
wide angle under strong light. Gotta look for it. I suspect there may 
be less printer to printer variation than we've come to expect.

Only yesterday did I notice bronzing (but without a changed color 
cast) in a color print and that was in the shadows of a deep blue 
dusk winter moonrise. This printer has handled extreme gamut 
saturations remarkably well for my experience with inkjets. (I've 
mainly used an old Stylus Photo but then LightJet for finished color 
prints.)

Aren't the R800 profiles Bill Atkinson's? As I recollect that helped 
sell me on the printer.

And, if anyone knows, what the bleep is a "Photo RPM"?


-- 
Paul


http://www.paulericjohnson.com

Paul wrote:


>And, if anyone knows, what the bleep is a "Photo RPM"?

Epson sez:
RPM (Resolution Performance Management) is Epson's technology for 
optimizing the placement of up to eight ink droplet sizes (six for 4-color 
models) on a grid up to 5760 dpi to deliver superior photo quality, greater 
detail and brighter colors.


-Don M


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wow, Paul, that is an excellent tip!  Thanks...

Although I don't know what the letters stand for, Photo RPM, I 
believe, means that the rate of printing has been slowed down to 
increase accuracy.

Ed


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Paul 
<pejohnson@p...> wrote:
> At 12:08 AM +0000 4/16/04, edrudolpho wrote:
> >I tried again using PG
> >and its profile and found that the grays would transition from 
> >yellow in the higher
> >end gray to violet-toned deeper grays.
> 
> At 3:08 AM +0000 4/16/04, sanfo2003 wrote:
> >using the "SPR800EnhMatteBstPhoto.icc" profile and using
> >the "Best Photo" resolution
> 
> 
> Hi Ed, I got exactly the results you describe until noticing the 
> "Bstphoto" in the profile name. Naturally wanting to try the new 
> highest resolution I had been using Photo RPM.
> 
> My results match Sandy's with Enhanced matte. So far, 
Premium Glossy, 
> Semi-gloss, and Luster are also spot-on neutral, and the 
gloss 
> optimizer has been very effective although you can see 
something 
> metamerism-like, a very slight color brozing, by looking closely 
at a 
> wide angle under strong light. Gotta look for it. I suspect there 
may 
> be less printer to printer variation than we've come to expect.
> 
> Only yesterday did I notice bronzing (but without a changed 
color 
> cast) in a color print and that was in the shadows of a deep 
blue 
> dusk winter moonrise. This printer has handled extreme 
gamut 
> saturations remarkably well for my experience with inkjets. (I've 
> mainly used an old Stylus Photo but then LightJet for finished 
color 
> prints.)
> 
> Aren't the R800 profiles Bill Atkinson's? As I recollect that 
helped 

> sell me on the printer.
> 
> And, if anyone knows, what the bleep is a "Photo RPM"?
> 
> 
> -- 
> Paul
> 
> 
> http://www.paulericjohnson.com

At 10:51 AM -0500 4/16/04, Don M wrote:
>Epson sez:
>RPM (Resolution Performance Management) is Epson's technology for
>optimizing the placement of up to eight ink droplet sizes (six for 4-color
>models) on a grid up to 5760 dpi to deliver superior photo quality, greater
>detail and brighter colors.
>
>-Don M


Thanks Don, can't figure why Epson wouldn't have wanted to profile 
the R800 for that!
-- 
Paul


http://www.paulericjohnson.com

Likely they will offer additional profiles at some point, as with the 
2200's recent new profiles.  And IMHO it would be nice if they 
actually enabled true Black Only printing.  I don't like having 
workflow so at the mercy of driver-writers.

Also, seems to me that in the European driver, there is an Auto 
feature with the Gloss Optimizer, that allows you to spray gloss 
only where the image area is.  Isn't this feature absent from the 
U.S. driver?

Ed




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Paul 
<pejohnson@p...> wrote:
> At 10:51 AM -0500 4/16/04, Don M wrote:
> >Epson sez:
> >RPM (Resolution Performance Management) is Epson's 
technology for
> >optimizing the placement of up to eight ink droplet sizes (six 
for 4-color
> >models) on a grid up to 5760 dpi to deliver superior photo 
quality, greater
> >detail and brighter colors.
> >
> >-Don M
> 
> 
> Thanks Don, can't figure why Epson wouldn't have wanted to 
profile 

> the R800 for that!
> -- 
> Paul
> 
> 
> http://www.paulericjohnson.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "edrudolpho" 
<erudolph@p...> wrote:
<snip>
> 
> Also, seems to me that in the European driver, there is an Auto 
> feature with the Gloss Optimizer, that allows you to spray gloss 
> only where the image area is.  Isn't this feature absent from the 
> U.S. driver?
> 
> Ed
> 
>> http://www.paulericjohnson.com

That feature is in the US driver. It also only applies glosser on 
glossy or gloss-based papers like premium luster, based on your 
selection of paper type. Because the glosser is shinier than even 
Primium Gloss paper, selectively glossing inmages high lights them in 
what I consider a very attractive manner. I am sure that effect will 
be a matter of personal taste.

Personally, I'd like to see the ability to control the glosser like a 
separate color so I could selectively gloss different areas of the 
print. That technique is very popular in the graphics design world 
where the most extreme form of it would be to print the whole page a 
single color and then apply the gloss for the type and graphics. It 
wuould be especially effective over an ink with strong reflective 
characteristics.

BTW, I don't know it is not possible to control the glosser 
separately, I simply haven't had time to pursue it on the one R800 I 
have access to.

Brian Maytum
Epson Rep.

Hi Brian.... I think I finally figured out that the Auto feature is in the 
R800 Us driver for Windows.  I don't seem to find it in the OS X 
driver.  Am I missing it?  If so, can you point me in the right 
direction?

thanks for any help,
Ed

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"brianmaytum" <bmaytum2000@m...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"edrudolpho" 
> <erudolph@p...> wrote:
> <snip>
> > 
> > Also, seems to me that in the European driver, there is an 
Auto 
> > feature with the Gloss Optimizer, that allows you to spray 
gloss 
> > only where the image area is.  Isn't this feature absent from 
the 
> > U.S. driver?
> > 
> > Ed
> > 
> >> http://www.paulericjohnson.com
> 
> That feature is in the US driver. It also only applies glosser on 
> glossy or gloss-based papers like premium luster, based on 
your 
> selection of paper type. Because the glosser is shinier than 
even 
> Primium Gloss paper, selectively glossing inmages high lights 
them in 
> what I consider a very attractive manner. I am sure that effect 
will 
> be a matter of personal taste.
> 
> Personally, I'd like to see the ability to control the glosser like a 
> separate color so I could selectively gloss different areas of the 
> print. That technique is very popular in the graphics design 
world 
> where the most extreme form of it would be to print the whole 
page a 
> single color and then apply the gloss for the type and graphics. 
It 
> wuould be especially effective over an ink with strong reflective 
> characteristics.
> 
> BTW, I don't know it is not possible to control the glosser 
> separately, I simply haven't had time to pursue it on the one 
R800 I 

> have access to.
> 
> Brian Maytum
> Epson Rep.