Digital BW, The Print

In the latest fade test series, I put test strips of Piezo on Hahnemuhle
German Etching, MIS VM (nc curve) on EAM, and an experimental variable-tone
called VM X3 that prints with the same curves as MIS VM (nc curve).

I measured fading as a percentage of the starting value and warming as the
change in the difference between the RGB red and blue channel measures.  The
test strips were scanned into Photoshop with an Epson 1600, and the
Histogram tool was used to make the measurements.

0% (paper white) warming:  EAM (2 samples) 2.4 & 2.3 units;  German Etching
0.6 units.

50% patch measures:

Piezo on German Etching -- Warming = 10.3 units,   Fading = 9.2%

MIS VM on EAM           -- Warming = 9 units,      Fading = 6.9%

VM X3 on EAM            -- Warming = 3.1 units,    Fading = 5%

Note that most of the warming had taken place by the 100 hour mark.  The
fading was also fastest at first, but it continues much more so than the
warming.

The fading of the 90% patch needs to be mentioned.  I measure the 90% patch
as opposed to the pure 100% patch to see what the shadows will be doing
because it may indicate whether there is a negative interaction between the
black ink and something in the midtone inks (and, of course, the paper is a
huge factor that affects all the patches).  A number of people have noted
that some components, perhaps including dyes, can actually act as catalysts
in fading other components, for example, the black ink.

(Note that in my fader the light is intense, so the black patches are
undoubtedly warmer than the lighter patches.  This is probably also the case
in the "south window tests" and perhaps all accelerated fade tests.  One
would expect, therefore, to see more fading in the darker patches.)

To measure the fading of the 90% patch, I converted the mode to grayscale
and used levels to set the white and black points of the control strips as
accurately as possible.  The percentage of fading is a percentage of the 90%
control strip for each set.  (The MIS VM and X3 are about the same.)

90% patch fading:

Piezo on German Etching -- 55%

VM X3 on EAM -- 18%.

Also of note, the Piezo 7000 black on the German Etching paper is slightly
darker than the MIS VM black on EAM printed with either the 3000 or 1160.
When the levels sets the Piezo/German Etching black on 100%, the MIS VM
blacks read 98%.

I have sent a Jpeg of the scans to Martin for inclusion in the Message
Related Files section of the forum.  I did notice, however, that the Jpeg
compression slightly affected the measures.  So, measuring those Jpegs may
result in slightly different readings than above.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul

Have you done any fade testing of the MIS VM WARM curve? Just wondering if
the untoned MIS inks fare better or worse than Piezo inks, and if since
they're already warm the color shift is less apparent to the image than with
the neutral curve?

Todd

Paul's step wedges from this fading trial are now posted in 
the "Files>Messages Related Files" section of the Group homepage:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Messa
ge%20Related%20Files/

(You may need to cut and paste the line so that all of it is in the 
address line of your browser.)

Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> In the latest fade test series, I put test strips of Piezo on 
Hahnemuhle
> German Etching, MIS VM (nc curve) on EAM, and an experimental 
variable-tone
> called VM X3 that prints with the same curves as MIS VM (nc curve).
> 
> I measured fading as a percentage of the starting value and warming 
as the
> change in the difference between the RGB red and blue channel 
measures.  The
> test strips were scanned into Photoshop with an Epson 1600, and the
> Histogram tool was used to make the measurements.
(snip)

Let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly...

You printed Piezo and MIS VM/VM X3 on different papers for this test?
If that is true, then you cannot draw valid conclusions by comparing 
what I see as apples and oranges... You may say that for a given
paper, these inks fade x amount, but you cannot compare them to each
other. If it was not your intent to compare fading and warming between
the inks, then that was not clear to me...

Thanks,
Cathy



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> In the latest fade test series, I put test strips of Piezo on Hahnemuhle
> German Etching, MIS VM (nc curve) on EAM, and an experimental
variable-tone
> called VM X3 that prints with the same curves as MIS VM (nc curve).
> 
> I measured fading as a percentage of the starting value and warming
as the
> change in the difference between the RGB red and blue channel
measures.  The
> test strips were scanned into Photoshop with an Epson 1600, and the
> Histogram tool was used to make the measurements.
> 
> 0% (paper white) warming:  EAM (2 samples) 2.4 & 2.3 units;  German
Etching
> 0.6 units.
> 
> 50% patch measures:
> 
> Piezo on German Etching -- Warming = 10.3 units,   Fading = 9.2%
> 
> MIS VM on EAM           -- Warming = 9 units,      Fading = 6.9%
> 
> VM X3 on EAM            -- Warming = 3.1 units,    Fading = 5%
> 
> Note that most of the warming had taken place by the 100 hour mark.  The
> fading was also fastest at first, but it continues much more so than the
> warming.
> 
> The fading of the 90% patch needs to be mentioned.  I measure the
90% patch
> as opposed to the pure 100% patch to see what the shadows will be doing
> because it may indicate whether there is a negative interaction
between the
> black ink and something in the midtone inks (and, of course, the
paper is a
> huge factor that affects all the patches).  A number of people have
noted
> that some components, perhaps including dyes, can actually act as
catalysts
> in fading other components, for example, the black ink.
> 
> (Note that in my fader the light is intense, so the black patches are
> undoubtedly warmer than the lighter patches.  This is probably also
the case
> in the "south window tests" and perhaps all accelerated fade tests.  One
> would expect, therefore, to see more fading in the darker patches.)
> 
> To measure the fading of the 90% patch, I converted the mode to
grayscale
> and used levels to set the white and black points of the control
strips as
> accurately as possible.  The percentage of fading is a percentage of
the 90%
> control strip for each set.  (The MIS VM and X3 are about the same.)
> 
> 90% patch fading:
> 
> Piezo on German Etching -- 55%
> 
> VM X3 on EAM -- 18%.
> 
> Also of note, the Piezo 7000 black on the German Etching paper is
slightly
> darker than the MIS VM black on EAM printed with either the 3000 or
1160.
> When the levels sets the Piezo/German Etching black on 100%, the MIS VM
> blacks read 98%.
> 
> I have sent a Jpeg of the scans to Martin for inclusion in the Message
> Related Files section of the forum.  I did notice, however, that the
Jpeg
> compression slightly affected the measures.  So, measuring those
Jpegs may

> result in slightly different readings than above.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Ditto, seems rather strange.  Why didn't you just print Piezo on EAM?

Also...with regards to Steadman's note....it is absolutely critical that
prints are made at the same time because of natural warming that occurs...at
least with Piezo (don't know about the MIS inks).  Starting a fade at Print
Time = 0 and Print Time = 2 weeks will certainly yield different results.

Robert

On 10/17/01 7:21 AM, "Cathy Van Berg" <vanbergc@...> wrote:

> Let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly...
> 
> You printed Piezo and MIS VM/VM X3 on different papers for this test?
> If that is true, then you cannot draw valid conclusions by comparing
> what I see as apples and oranges... You may say that for a given
> paper, these inks fade x amount, but you cannot compare them to each
> other. If it was not your intent to compare fading and warming between
> the inks, then that was not clear to me...
> 
> Thanks,
> Cathy
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>> In the latest fade test series, I put test strips of Piezo on Hahnemuhle
>> German Etching, MIS VM (nc curve) on EAM, and an experimental
> variable-tone
>> called VM X3 that prints with the same curves as MIS VM (nc curve).
>> 
>> I measured fading as a percentage of the starting value and warming
> as the
>> change in the difference between the RGB red and blue channel
> measures.  The
>> test strips were scanned into Photoshop with an Epson 1600, and the
>> Histogram tool was used to make the measurements.
>> 
>> 0% (paper white) warming:  EAM (2 samples) 2.4 & 2.3 units;  German
> Etching
>> 0.6 units.
>> 
>> 50% patch measures:
>> 
>> Piezo on German Etching -- Warming = 10.3 units,   Fading = 9.2%
>> 
>> MIS VM on EAM           -- Warming = 9 units,      Fading = 6.9%
>> 
>> VM X3 on EAM            -- Warming = 3.1 units,    Fading = 5%
>> 
>> Note that most of the warming had taken place by the 100 hour mark.  The
>> fading was also fastest at first, but it continues much more so than the
>> warming.
>> 
>> The fading of the 90% patch needs to be mentioned.  I measure the
> 90% patch
>> as opposed to the pure 100% patch to see what the shadows will be doing
>> because it may indicate whether there is a negative interaction
> between the
>> black ink and something in the midtone inks (and, of course, the
> paper is a
>> huge factor that affects all the patches).  A number of people have
> noted
>> that some components, perhaps including dyes, can actually act as
> catalysts
>> in fading other components, for example, the black ink.
>> 
>> (Note that in my fader the light is intense, so the black patches are
>> undoubtedly warmer than the lighter patches.  This is probably also
> the case
>> in the "south window tests" and perhaps all accelerated fade tests.  One
>> would expect, therefore, to see more fading in the darker patches.)
>> 
>> To measure the fading of the 90% patch, I converted the mode to
> grayscale
>> and used levels to set the white and black points of the control
> strips as
>> accurately as possible.  The percentage of fading is a percentage of
> the 90%
>> control strip for each set.  (The MIS VM and X3 are about the same.)
>> 
>> 90% patch fading:
>> 
>> Piezo on German Etching -- 55%
>> 
>> VM X3 on EAM -- 18%.
>> 
>> Also of note, the Piezo 7000 black on the German Etching paper is
> slightly
>> darker than the MIS VM black on EAM printed with either the 3000 or
> 1160.
>> When the levels sets the Piezo/German Etching black on 100%, the MIS VM
>> blacks read 98%.
>> 
>> I have sent a Jpeg of the scans to Martin for inclusion in the Message
>> Related Files section of the forum.  I did notice, however, that the
> Jpeg
>> compression slightly affected the measures.  So, measuring those
> Jpegs may
>> result in slightly different readings than above.
>> 
>> Paul
>> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

The competence of the home enthusiast via-a-vis the facilities
dedicated to testing and reporting image permanence of digital 
and traditional photographic print materials (i.e., Wilhelm, RIT)
has relegated the reports from home to the anecdotal.

Unfortunately, this latest broadcast, which compares two inks
printed on different media, not only brings to question the 
competence, but also the motivation and integrity of the tester.

JB



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Ditto, seems rather strange.  Why didn't you just print Piezo on 
EAM?
> 
> Also...with regards to Steadman's note....it is absolutely critical 
that
> prints are made at the same time because of natural warming that 
occurs...at
> least with Piezo (don't know about the MIS inks).  Starting a fade 
at Print
> Time = 0 and Print Time = 2 weeks will certainly yield different 
results.
> 
> Robert
> 
> On 10/17/01 7:21 AM, "Cathy Van Berg" <vanbergc@y...> wrote:
> 
> > Let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly...
> > 
> > You printed Piezo and MIS VM/VM X3 on different papers for this 
test?
> > If that is true, then you cannot draw valid conclusions by 
comparing
> > what I see as apples and oranges... You may say that for a given
> > paper, these inks fade x amount, but you cannot compare them to 
each
> > other. If it was not your intent to compare fading and warming 
between
> > the inks, then that was not clear to me...
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Cathy
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >> In the latest fade test series, I put test strips of Piezo on 
Hahnemuhle
> >> German Etching, MIS VM (nc curve) on EAM, and an experimental
> > variable-tone
> >> called VM X3 that prints with the same curves as MIS VM (nc 
curve).
> >> 
> >> I measured fading as a percentage of the starting value and 
warming
> > as the
> >> change in the difference between the RGB red and blue channel
> > measures.  The
> >> test strips were scanned into Photoshop with an Epson 1600, and 
the
> >> Histogram tool was used to make the measurements.
> >> 
> >> 0% (paper white) warming:  EAM (2 samples) 2.4 & 2.3 units;  
German
> > Etching
> >> 0.6 units.
> >> 
> >> 50% patch measures:
> >> 
> >> Piezo on German Etching -- Warming = 10.3 units,   Fading = 9.2%
> >> 
> >> MIS VM on EAM           -- Warming = 9 units,      Fading = 6.9%
> >> 
> >> VM X3 on EAM            -- Warming = 3.1 units,    Fading = 5%
> >> 
> >> Note that most of the warming had taken place by the 100 hour 
mark.  The
> >> fading was also fastest at first, but it continues much more so 
than the
> >> warming.
> >> 
> >> The fading of the 90% patch needs to be mentioned.  I measure the
> > 90% patch
> >> as opposed to the pure 100% patch to see what the shadows will 
be doing
> >> because it may indicate whether there is a negative interaction
> > between the
> >> black ink and something in the midtone inks (and, of course, the
> > paper is a
> >> huge factor that affects all the patches).  A number of people 
have
> > noted
> >> that some components, perhaps including dyes, can actually act as
> > catalysts
> >> in fading other components, for example, the black ink.
> >> 
> >> (Note that in my fader the light is intense, so the black 
patches are
> >> undoubtedly warmer than the lighter patches.  This is probably 
also
> > the case
> >> in the "south window tests" and perhaps all accelerated fade 
tests.  One
> >> would expect, therefore, to see more fading in the darker 
patches.)
> >> 
> >> To measure the fading of the 90% patch, I converted the mode to
> > grayscale
> >> and used levels to set the white and black points of the control
> > strips as
> >> accurately as possible.  The percentage of fading is a 
percentage of
> > the 90%
> >> control strip for each set.  (The MIS VM and X3 are about the 
same.)
> >> 
> >> 90% patch fading:
> >> 
> >> Piezo on German Etching -- 55%
> >> 
> >> VM X3 on EAM -- 18%.
> >> 
> >> Also of note, the Piezo 7000 black on the German Etching paper is
> > slightly
> >> darker than the MIS VM black on EAM printed with either the 3000 
or
> > 1160.
> >> When the levels sets the Piezo/German Etching black on 100%, the 
MIS VM
> >> blacks read 98%.
> >> 
> >> I have sent a Jpeg of the scans to Martin for inclusion in the 
Message
> >> Related Files section of the forum.  I did notice, however, that 
the
> > Jpeg
> >> compression slightly affected the measures.  So, measuring those
> > Jpegs may
> >> result in slightly different readings than above.
> >> 
> >> Paul
> >> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> > 
> > 
> 
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@p...
> 
> 310-397-2704
> 
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066

Cathy,

>You printed Piezo and MIS VM/VM X3 on different papers for this test?

I didn't print the Piezo/German Etching Paper test strip.  I was asked to
run it just to see how it did.

>If that is true, then you cannot draw valid conclusions by comparing
>what I see as apples and oranges...

Yes, there is some of that.  I have only 3 spots in my fader.  My interest
is the MIS VM inkset and the experimental inksets I'm working on.  I have no
interest in Piezo and German Etching personally.

>You may say that for a given
>paper, these inks fade x amount, but you cannot compare them to each
>other. If it was not your intent to compare fading and warming between
>the inks, then that was not clear to me...

The main and most valid comparison to come out of the test is the MIS VM v.
VM X3 on EAM.

On the other hand, I don't see all that much variability in the tests.
Since there is almost always an MIS VM (nc) on EAM test strip in the tests,
I can track the variances in that combination.  The results are fairly
consistent.  So, while I make no claims at all regarding the Piezo and
German Etching, if I were using them, I'd be interested in looking into how
they might perform.  I see the 90% fade result as a yellow flag that I'd be
interested in pursuing more if that were the combination I was using.  (The
other fade and warm shifting is right in the normal range -- not bad at
all.)

I encourager everyone to test their materials.  Life is too short to wait
for Wilhelm, and there are too many vested interests to trust what a seller
says.  We can all do the crude testing, whether it is "south window" or
simple florescent light.  All I'm doing is trying to get to an inkset that I
feel has the qualities I want.  As "defective" as my testing may be, I just
don't see anything better out there that is useable.  So, I do my own thing
for my own uses.  I publish the results and others can take them for what
they are.  Hopefully some information is better than none.

I do have one clear interest -- I want there to be a competitive quad inkset
industry that serves our shared interests.  I'm not trying to bash any
inkset, paper, or system, but I want alternatives and some information about
their relative performance. Where else are we going to get that information
if we don't do the work?

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

JB,

I really don't see that Wilhelm and RIT are any less "anecdotal." 
Actually I find them worse because they try to extrapolate their data 
into a statement about longevity in years.

I believe that Paul's test is a valid comparison of the INK/PAPER 
combinations. It is not a valid comparison of Piezo to MIS VM. It is 
a valid comparison of the MIS VM and VM X3 inks.

These types of test are of interest if you view them as comparative 
testing and not absolute testing. The more people who engage in their 
own testing and share their results the better. As the amount of 
information grows it may be possible to spot trends.


I think you are mistaken to categorically question the testing of 
the "home enthusiast." The members of the list have a great deal of 
expertise in many areas.

I am very puzzled as to what your reasons are to question Paul's 
motivation and integrity. He has done a great deal of work with the 
inks and shared the information freely. I do not understand your 
antagonism.

Martin Wesley


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., jbroyaliii@h... wrote:
> The competence of the home enthusiast via-a-vis the facilities
> dedicated to testing and reporting image permanence of digital 
> and traditional photographic print materials (i.e., Wilhelm, RIT)
> has relegated the reports from home to the anecdotal.
> 
> Unfortunately, this latest broadcast, which compares two inks
> printed on different media, not only brings to question the 
> competence, but also the motivation and integrity of the tester.
> 
> JB
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> > Ditto, seems rather strange.  Why didn't you just print Piezo on 
> EAM?
> > 
> > Also...with regards to Steadman's note....it is absolutely 
critical 
> that
> > prints are made at the same time because of natural warming that 
> occurs...at
> > least with Piezo (don't know about the MIS inks).  Starting a 
fade 
> at Print
> > Time = 0 and Print Time = 2 weeks will certainly yield different 
> results.
> > 
> > Robert
> > 
> > On 10/17/01 7:21 AM, "Cathy Van Berg" <vanbergc@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > > Let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly...
> > > 
> > > You printed Piezo and MIS VM/VM X3 on different papers for this 
> test?
> > > If that is true, then you cannot draw valid conclusions by 
> comparing
> > > what I see as apples and oranges... You may say that for a given
> > > paper, these inks fade x amount, but you cannot compare them to 
> each
> > > other. If it was not your intent to compare fading and warming 
> between
> > > the inks, then that was not clear to me...
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > Cathy
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
> > > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > >> In the latest fade test series, I put test strips of Piezo on 
> Hahnemuhle
> > >> German Etching, MIS VM (nc curve) on EAM, and an experimental
> > > variable-tone
> > >> called VM X3 that prints with the same curves as MIS VM (nc 
> curve).
> > >> 
> > >> I measured fading as a percentage of the starting value and 
> warming
> > > as the
> > >> change in the difference between the RGB red and blue channel
> > > measures.  The
> > >> test strips were scanned into Photoshop with an Epson 1600, 
and 
> the
> > >> Histogram tool was used to make the measurements.
> > >> 
> > >> 0% (paper white) warming:  EAM (2 samples) 2.4 & 2.3 units;  
> German
> > > Etching
> > >> 0.6 units.
> > >> 
> > >> 50% patch measures:
> > >> 
> > >> Piezo on German Etching -- Warming = 10.3 units,   Fading = 
9.2%
> > >> 
> > >> MIS VM on EAM           -- Warming = 9 units,      Fading = 
6.9%
> > >> 
> > >> VM X3 on EAM            -- Warming = 3.1 units,    Fading = 5%
> > >> 
> > >> Note that most of the warming had taken place by the 100 hour 
> mark.  The
> > >> fading was also fastest at first, but it continues much more 
so 
> than the
> > >> warming.
> > >> 
> > >> The fading of the 90% patch needs to be mentioned.  I measure 
the
> > > 90% patch
> > >> as opposed to the pure 100% patch to see what the shadows will 
> be doing
> > >> because it may indicate whether there is a negative interaction
> > > between the
> > >> black ink and something in the midtone inks (and, of course, 
the
> > > paper is a
> > >> huge factor that affects all the patches).  A number of people 
> have
> > > noted
> > >> that some components, perhaps including dyes, can actually act 
as
> > > catalysts
> > >> in fading other components, for example, the black ink.
> > >> 
> > >> (Note that in my fader the light is intense, so the black 
> patches are
> > >> undoubtedly warmer than the lighter patches.  This is probably 
> also
> > > the case
> > >> in the "south window tests" and perhaps all accelerated fade 
> tests.  One
> > >> would expect, therefore, to see more fading in the darker 
> patches.)
> > >> 
> > >> To measure the fading of the 90% patch, I converted the mode to
> > > grayscale
> > >> and used levels to set the white and black points of the 
control
> > > strips as
> > >> accurately as possible.  The percentage of fading is a 
> percentage of
> > > the 90%
> > >> control strip for each set.  (The MIS VM and X3 are about the 
> same.)
> > >> 
> > >> 90% patch fading:
> > >> 
> > >> Piezo on German Etching -- 55%
> > >> 
> > >> VM X3 on EAM -- 18%.
> > >> 
> > >> Also of note, the Piezo 7000 black on the German Etching paper 
is
> > > slightly
> > >> darker than the MIS VM black on EAM printed with either the 
3000 
> or
> > > 1160.
> > >> When the levels sets the Piezo/German Etching black on 100%, 
the 
> MIS VM
> > >> blacks read 98%.
> > >> 
> > >> I have sent a Jpeg of the scans to Martin for inclusion in the 
> Message
> > >> Related Files section of the forum.  I did notice, however, 
that 
> the
> > > Jpeg
> > >> compression slightly affected the measures.  So, measuring 
those
> > > Jpegs may
> > >> result in slightly different readings than above.
> > >> 
> > >> Paul
> > >> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
> Polls and other
> > > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > > 
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > 
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> messages to keep
> > > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject 
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
> or "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
the 

> various
> > > resources on the homepage.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > ----------------------
> > Robert Morrison
> > rmorrison@p...
> > 
> > 310-397-2704
> > 
> > 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> > Los Angeles, CA 90066

on 10/17/01 3:11 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> I am very puzzled as to what your reasons are to question Paul's
> motivation and integrity. He has done a great deal of work with the
> inks and shared the information freely. I do not understand your
> antagonism.

I think some air needs to be cleared here. I hope I'm not being too
presumptuous or provocative, but here goes.

I get the feeling JB is not the only person on this list who think Paul is
affiliated with MIS, and is thus an opponent, competitor, or in some way has
an axe to grind with Cone's Piezo. I think people presumptuous that because
he writes curves for the MIS inks, and in fact, contributes to their inkset
formulations, so it's not a far fetched notion.

Paul, lets say I accuse you of (which I don't BTW), for whatever reason,
being biased against Piezo, and perhaps engaging in misinformation or biased
information toward their products. Would you care to state for yourself what
your "position" is relative to either or both of those manufacturers?

Todd

>The competence of the home enthusiast via-a-vis the facilities
>dedicated to testing and reporting image permanence of digital
>and traditional photographic print materials (i.e., Wilhelm, RIT)
>has relegated the reports from home to the anecdotal.
>
>Unfortunately, this latest broadcast, which compares two inks
>printed on different media, not only brings to question the
>competence, but also the motivation and integrity of the tester.
>
>JB
>

Given that (1) the experiment's protocol is insufficiently detailed, 
(2) that the environment into which the experiment was carried was 
not adequately controlled and (3) that mixed medias (paper/ink) were 
used, it certainly follows that the results have little or no value 
for the purpose of comparing the two types of ink.

The test is nonetheless quite interesting and useful in comparing 
media combinations which all of us might be tempted to try.

Jean-Michel Paris

>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
><rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>>  Ditto, seems rather strange.  Why didn't you just print Piezo on
>EAM?
>>
>>  Also...with regards to Steadman's note....it is absolutely critical
>that
>>  prints are made at the same time because of natural warming that
>occurs...at
>>  least with Piezo (don't know about the MIS inks).  Starting a fade
>at Print
>>  Time = 0 and Print Time = 2 weeks will certainly yield different
>results.
>>
>>  Robert
>>
>>  On 10/17/01 7:21 AM, "Cathy Van Berg" <vanbergc@y...> wrote:
>>
>>  > Let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly...
>>  >
>>  > You printed Piezo and MIS VM/VM X3 on different papers for this
>test?
>>  > If that is true, then you cannot draw valid conclusions by
>comparing
>>  > what I see as apples and oranges... You may say that for a given
>>  > paper, these inks fade x amount, but you cannot compare them to
>each
>>  > other. If it was not your intent to compare fading and warming
>between
>>  > the inks, then that was not clear to me...
>>  >
>>  > Thanks,
>>  > Cathy
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
>>  > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>>  >> In the latest fade test series, I put test strips of Piezo on
>Hahnemuhle
>>  >> German Etching, MIS VM (nc curve) on EAM, and an experimental
>>  > variable-tone
>>  >> called VM X3 that prints with the same curves as MIS VM (nc
>curve).
>>  >>
>>  >> I measured fading as a percentage of the starting value and
>warming
>>  > as the
>>  >> change in the difference between the RGB red and blue channel
>>  > measures.  The
>>  >> test strips were scanned into Photoshop with an Epson 1600, and
>the
>>  >> Histogram tool was used to make the measurements.
>>  >>
>>  >> 0% (paper white) warming:  EAM (2 samples) 2.4 & 2.3 units;
>German
>  > > Etching
>  > >> 0.6 units.
>  > >>
>  > >> 50% patch measures:
>  > >>
>  > >> Piezo on German Etching -- Warming = 10.3 units,   Fading = 9.2%
>  > >>
>  > >> MIS VM on EAM           -- Warming = 9 units,      Fading = 6.9%
>  > >>
>  > >> VM X3 on EAM            -- Warming = 3.1 units,    Fading = 5%
>  > >>
>  > >> Note that most of the warming had taken place by the 100 hour
>mark.  The
>>  >> fading was also fastest at first, but it continues much more so
>than the
>>  >> warming.
>>  >>
>>  >> The fading of the 90% patch needs to be mentioned.  I measure the
>>  > 90% patch
>>  >> as opposed to the pure 100% patch to see what the shadows will
>be doing
>>  >> because it may indicate whether there is a negative interaction
>>  > between the
>>  >> black ink and something in the midtone inks (and, of course, the
>>  > paper is a
>>  >> huge factor that affects all the patches).  A number of people
>have
>>  > noted
>>  >> that some components, perhaps including dyes, can actually act as
>>  > catalysts
>>  >> in fading other components, for example, the black ink.
>>  >>
>>  >> (Note that in my fader the light is intense, so the black
>patches are
>>  >> undoubtedly warmer than the lighter patches.  This is probably
>also
>>  > the case
>>  >> in the "south window tests" and perhaps all accelerated fade
>tests.  One
>>  >> would expect, therefore, to see more fading in the darker
>patches.)
>>  >>
>>  >> To measure the fading of the 90% patch, I converted the mode to
>>  > grayscale
>>  >> and used levels to set the white and black points of the control
>>  > strips as
>>  >> accurately as possible.  The percentage of fading is a
>percentage of
>>  > the 90%
>>  >> control strip for each set.  (The MIS VM and X3 are about the
>same.)
>>  >>
>>  >> 90% patch fading:
>>  >>
>>  >> Piezo on German Etching -- 55%
>>  >>
>>  >> VM X3 on EAM -- 18%.
>>  >>
>>  >> Also of note, the Piezo 7000 black on the German Etching paper is
>>  > slightly
>>  >> darker than the MIS VM black on EAM printed with either the 3000
>or
>>  > 1160.
>>  >> When the levels sets the Piezo/German Etching black on 100%, the
>MIS VM
>>  >> blacks read 98%.
>>  >>
>>  >> I have sent a Jpeg of the scans to Martin for inclusion in the
>Message
>>  >> Related Files section of the forum.  I did notice, however, that
>the
>>  > Jpeg
>>  >> compression slightly affected the measures.  So, measuring those
>>  > Jpegs may
>>  >> result in slightly different readings than above.
>>  >>
>>  >> Paul
>>  >> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
>Polls and other
>>  > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>  >
>>  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>  >
>>  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>  > - Include your full name with your message.
>>  > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
>messages to keep
>>  > them short.
>>  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
>header.
>>  > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
>or "flames."
>>  > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>  > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
>various
>>  > resources on the homepage.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>  >
>>  >
>>
>>  ----------------------
>>  Robert Morrison
>>  rmorrison@p...
>>
>>  310-397-2704
>>
>>  4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>>  Los Angeles, CA 90066
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
>to keep them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
>various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


-- 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Jean-Michel Paris
ETHERGRAPHIK INC.                                          Tél : (514) 744-3312
795, rue Muir, Porte 801                   Sans Frais : 1 (888) 211-8522
Saint-Laurent, Qc  H4L 5H8                             Fax : (514) 744-5075
CANADA 
<jmparis@...>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Am I missing something here?  Are the last two posts saying that testing the fading of one ink (brand) on
several different papers is invalid?  Why?

And are you saying that Wilhelm has proved itself to be reliable?....There are a lot of people out there who
would argue with that.

And finally, the below tests were done in a controlled 'fader', all papers entering together, and not in some
window where the weather changes or the angle of the sun, relative to time of year changes....I would think at
the very least, that these tests would be considered empirical.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC

broyaliii@... wrote:

> The competence of the home enthusiast via-a-vis the facilities
> dedicated to testing and reporting image permanence of digital
> and traditional photographic print materials (i.e., Wilhelm, RIT)
> has relegated the reports from home to the anecdotal.
>
> Unfortunately, this latest broadcast, which compares two inks
> printed on different media, not only brings to question the
> competence, but also the motivation and integrity of the tester.
>
> JB
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> > Ditto, seems rather strange.  Why didn't you just print Piezo on EAM?
> >
> > Also...with regards to Steadman's note....it is absolutely critical that
> > prints are made at the same time because of natural warming that occurs...at
> > least with Piezo (don't know about the MIS inks).  Starting a fade at Print
> > Time = 0 and Print Time = 2 weeks will certainly yield different results.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> > On 10/17/01 7:21 AM, "Cathy Van Berg" <vanbergc@y...> wrote:
> >
> > > Let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly...
> > >
> > > You printed Piezo and MIS VM/VM X3 on different papers for this test?
> > > If that is true, then you cannot draw valid conclusions by comparing
> > > what I see as apples and oranges... You may say that for a given
> > > paper, these inks fade x amount, but you cannot compare them to each
> > > other. If it was not your intent to compare fading and warming between
> > > the inks, then that was not clear to me...
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Cathy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
> > > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > >> In the latest fade test series, I put test strips of Piezo on Hahnemuhle
> > >> German Etching, MIS VM (nc curve) on EAM, and an experimental
> > > variable-tone
> > >> called VM X3 that prints with the same curves as MIS VM (nc curve).
> > >>
> > >> I measured fading as a percentage of the starting value and warming
> > > as the
> > >> change in the difference between the RGB red and blue channel
> > > measures.  The
> > >> test strips were scanned into Photoshop with an Epson 1600, and the
> > >> Histogram tool was used to make the measurements.
> > >>
> > >> 0% (paper white) warming:  EAM (2 samples) 2.4 & 2.3 units; German
> > > Etching
> > >> 0.6 units.
> > >>
> > >> 50% patch measures:
> > >>
> > >> Piezo on German Etching -- Warming = 10.3 units,   Fading = 9.2%
> > >>
> > >> MIS VM on EAM           -- Warming = 9 units,      Fading = 6.9%
> > >>
> > >> VM X3 on EAM            -- Warming = 3.1 units,    Fading = 5%
> > >>
> > >> Note that most of the warming had taken place by the 100 hour
> mark.  The
> > >> fading was also fastest at first, but it continues much more so
> than the
> > >> warming.
> > >>
> > >> The fading of the 90% patch needs to be mentioned.  I measure the
> > > 90% patch
> > >> as opposed to the pure 100% patch to see what the shadows will
> be doing
> > >> because it may indicate whether there is a negative interaction
> > > between the
> > >> black ink and something in the midtone inks (and, of course, the
> > > paper is a
> > >> huge factor that affects all the patches).  A number of people
> have
> > > noted
> > >> that some components, perhaps including dyes, can actually act as
> > > catalysts
> > >> in fading other components, for example, the black ink.
> > >>
> > >> (Note that in my fader the light is intense, so the black
> patches are
> > >> undoubtedly warmer than the lighter patches.  This is probably
> also
> > > the case
> > >> in the "south window tests" and perhaps all accelerated fade
> tests.  One
> > >> would expect, therefore, to see more fading in the darker
> patches.)
> > >>
> > >> To measure the fading of the 90% patch, I converted the mode to
> > > grayscale
> > >> and used levels to set the white and black points of the control
> > > strips as
> > >> accurately as possible.  The percentage of fading is a
> percentage of
> > > the 90%
> > >> control strip for each set.  (The MIS VM and X3 are about the
> same.)
> > >>
> > >> 90% patch fading:
> > >>
> > >> Piezo on German Etching -- 55%
> > >>
> > >> VM X3 on EAM -- 18%.
> > >>
> > >> Also of note, the Piezo 7000 black on the German Etching paper is
> > > slightly
> > >> darker than the MIS VM black on EAM printed with either the 3000
> or
> > > 1160.
> > >> When the levels sets the Piezo/German Etching black on 100%, the
> MIS VM
> > >> blacks read 98%.
> > >>
> > >> I have sent a Jpeg of the scans to Martin for inclusion in the
> Message
> > >> Related Files section of the forum.  I did notice, however, that
> the
> > > Jpeg
> > >> compression slightly affected the measures.  So, measuring those
> > > Jpegs may
> > >> result in slightly different readings than above.
> > >>
> > >> Paul




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 06:25 AM 10/17/2001 +0000, Martin Wesley wrote:
>Paul's step wedges from this fading trial are now posted in
>the "Files>Messages Related Files" section of the Group homepage:
>
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Messa>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Messa
>ge%20Related%20Files/
>
>(You may need to cut and paste the line so that all of it is in the
>address line of your browser.)

I think if you put brackets (<>) around the address, you wouldn't have to 
cut and paste to get it all in.

Like so (if this works):
<<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Messa>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Message%20Related%20Files/>



****************
James E. Martz
Milan, OH
jemartz@...
*****************

At 12:32 AM 12/19/2001 -0500, Jim Martz wrote:


>I think if you put brackets (<>) around the address, you wouldn't have to
>cut and paste to get it all in.
>
>Like so (if this works):
><<<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Messa>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Messa>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Message%20Related%20Files/>
>

Well, it didn't turn out like I wanted it to.
See if this works:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Message%20Related%20Files/>



****************
James E. Martz
Milan, OH
jemartz@...
*****************

At 12:40 AM 12/19/2001 -0500, Jim Martz wrote:


>Well, it didn't turn out like I wanted it to.
>See if this works:
><<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Message%20Related%20Files/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Message%20Related%20Files/>
>

Yeah!  That's more like it.



****************
James E. Martz
Milan, OH
jemartz@...
*****************