Digital BW, The Print

I bought my 7600 solely for dedicated BW - now there seem to be no 
inks for it.  I was planning on UT7, but it looks like they might not 
materialize. I use an Epson driver, PS7, and print on H.Photo rag. 
The option to print glossy is not important to me. Archival is 
important. I can't start now with an expensive RIP. Please help!  

       Arlene Love
       ArleneLoveL@...

I posted a message similar to yours a few minutes ago, trying to summarize 
what options I'm aware of. I'm hoping for feedback as well.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lovelipp" <
ArleneLoveL@a...> wrote:

> I bought my 7600 solely for dedicated BW - now there seem to be no 
> inks for it.  I was planning on UT7, but it looks like they might not 
> materialize. I use an Epson driver, PS7, and print on H.Photo rag. 
> The option to print glossy is not important to me. Archival is 
> important. I can't start now with an expensive RIP. Please help!  
> 
>        Arlene Love
>        ArleneLoveL@a...

On Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 10:30 AM, lovelipp wrote:

> I bought my 7600 solely for dedicated BW - now there seem to be no
> inks for it.  I was planning on UT7, but it looks like they might not
> materialize. I use an Epson driver, PS7, and print on H.Photo rag.
> The option to print glossy is not important to me. Archival is
> important. I can't start now with an expensive RIP. Please help! 
>
>        Arlene Love
>        ArleneLoveL@...
>

One company I would investigate is Sundance, at www.bwguys.com

I bought my 7600 to run color and black and white, but have suffered 
the clog from hell after switching to a third party ink.  Still trying 
to resolve the matter after several weeks.  Full report to follow 
pending outcome.  In the meantime, it may be that my best option for 
retaining the most use out of the printer is to turn it into a 
dedicated b&w printer, using a set of ink which does not use the one 
clogged (?) nozzle.  Sundance has such a set.  They also, though, have 
their own driver, the full version of which is not cheap, but due out 
soon is a plug-in version for Mac, which is what I'm on.  I forget what 
the Windows options are.  The Mac PS plugin version has not yet been 
priced.

I have not used these inks yet, and so am not recommending them based 
on experience, only on recommendation from a knowledgeable source.

The other person I will contact before deciding on an inkset is Richard 
Wolfson, www.rwolfson.com  He has been recommended by a top source as 
being a master at b&w printing.  He gives workshops as well.  I haven't 
contacted him yet, so don't know what inks he recommends, but will find 
out before making my decision.

James Irelan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

According to Richard Wofson's web site, he has not done a seminar since 
2002.
Mark

On Apr 20, 2004, at 2:57 PM, James Irelan wrote:

>
>  On Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 10:30 AM, lovelipp wrote:
>
>  > I bought my 7600 solely for dedicated BW - now there seem to be no
>  > inks for it.� I was planning on UT7, but it looks like they might 
> not
>  > materialize. I use an Epson driver, PS7, and print on H.Photo rag.
>  > The option to print glossy is not important to me. Archival is
>  > important. I can't start now with an expensive RIP. Please help!�
>  >
>  > ������ Arlene Love
>  > ������ ArleneLoveL@...
>  >
>
>  One company I would investigate is Sundance, at www.bwguys.com
>
>  I bought my 7600 to run color and black and white, but have suffered
>  the clog from hell after switching to a third party ink.� Still trying
>  to resolve the matter after several weeks.� Full report to follow
>  pending outcome.� In the meantime, it may be that my best option for
>  retaining the most use out of the printer is to turn it into a
>  dedicated b&w printer, using a set of ink which does not use the one
>  clogged (?) nozzle.� Sundance has such a set.� They also, though, have
>  their own driver, the full version of which is not cheap, but due out
>  soon is a plug-in version for Mac, which is what I'm on.� I forget 
> what
>  the Windows options are.� The Mac PS plugin version has not yet been
>  priced.
>
>  I have not used these inks yet, and so am not recommending them based
>  on experience, only on recommendation from a knowledgeable source.
>
>  The other person I will contact before deciding on an inkset is 
> Richard
>  Wolfson, www.rwolfson.com� He has been recommended by a top source as
>  being a master at b&w printing.� He gives workshops as well.� I 
> haven't
>  contacted him yet, so don't know what inks he recommends, but will 
> find
>  out before making my decision.
>
>  James Irelan
>
>
>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are inks. Piezotones. And you can load your own carts if you
want to use MIS inks. Loading the x600 carts is easier than previous
carts, you need all the correct supplies from MIS.
Without more expensive software I believe your only option is QTR if
you are on a Mac, or hope for RGB curves for the MIS inks from some
courageous soul. Beyond that, pray for Cone icc profiles soon, or take
out a loan.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lovelipp"
<ArleneLoveL@a...> wrote:

> I bought my 7600 solely for dedicated BW - now there seem to be no 
> inks for it.  I was planning on UT7, but it looks like they might not 
> materialize. I use an Epson driver, PS7, and print on H.Photo rag. 
> The option to print glossy is not important to me. Archival is 
> important. I can't start now with an expensive RIP. Please help!  
> 
>        Arlene Love
>        ArleneLoveL@a...

Does QTR actually drive the Piezotone inks?  In the list of supported 
printers and inksets on Roy H's site, Piezotones aren't listed.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> There are inks. Piezotones.

> Without more expensive software I believe your only option is QTR if
> you are on a Mac

> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lovelipp"
> <ArleneLoveL@a...> wrote:
> > I bought my 7600 solely for dedicated BW - now there seem to be 
no 
> > inks for it.  I was planning on UT7, but it looks like they might 
not 
> > materialize. I use an Epson driver, PS7, and print on H.Photo 
rag. 

> > The option to print glossy is not important to me. Archival is 
> > important. I can't start now with an expensive RIP. Please help!  
> > 
> >        Arlene Love
> >        ArleneLoveL@a...

Chip, I hope Roy answers, but when I played with QTR all the controls
to support any ink in any position seemed to be there. I suspect there
are profiles readily available for some sets and not others, but these
are easily made from scratch with all the tools that come with. Some
work and grokking will be necessary, but desirable to get a good
understanding of the system anyway.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc"
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> Does QTR actually drive the Piezotone inks?  In the list of supported 
> printers and inksets on Roy H's site, Piezotones aren't listed.

As Tyler said, QTR has all the control for any ink set.  There aren't any
existing profiles for the piezotone ink set.  However, with a good measuring
device such as an Eye-One it is quite easy to support anything you want.  

Ironically, the biggest issue with a 7 ink printer is what to do with so many inks.
Piezo is only 4 inks.  The septone system for example uses two independent gray 
sets with a common black.  Others starting with piezo inks will custom mix
different piezo set to get specific color tones.

The other approach that appeals to me is have a basic gray quadtone, plus
individual toner inks that you can software control the color tones giving
what ever tones and split tones you like.  This is the general idea I took with
my 7500 -- 6 inks with 1 black, 3 grays, a cool toner and a sepia toner.
With 7 inks you could just use light C,M,Y toners.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:

> Chip, I hope Roy answers, but when I played with QTR all the controls
> to support any ink in any position seemed to be there. I suspect there
> are profiles readily available for some sets and not others, but these
> are easily made from scratch with all the tools that come with. Some
> work and grokking will be necessary, but desirable to get a good
> understanding of the system anyway.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc"
> <chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> > Does QTR actually drive the Piezotone inks?  In the list of supported 
> > printers and inksets on Roy H's site, Piezotones aren't listed.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington"
<roy@h...> wrote:
...
> Ironically, the biggest issue with a 7 ink printer is what to do
with so many inks.
> Piezo is only 4 inks.  The septone system for example uses two
independent gray 
> sets with a common black.  Others starting with piezo inks will
custom mix
> different piezo set to get specific color tones.

Actually, this is one of the coolest aspects. Piezotones for the x600
printers come in configured sets for warm and cool with a shared
black. I believe they are Sepia+Cool Neutral, or  Warm
Neutral+Selenium, either with whatever K ink you want. I believe these
sets were chosen because they are the best "oposite" to each other.
This was done for StudioPrint users, however with QTR you should
easily be able to set up profiles for either/or, then blend assuming
the driver still has that option. Others are coming up with their own
custom options with the various inksets.

> The other approach that appeals to me is have a basic gray quadtone,
plus
> individual toner inks that you can software control the color tones
giving
> what ever tones and split tones you like.  This is the general idea
I took with
> my 7500 -- 6 inks with 1 black, 3 grays, a cool toner and a sepia toner.
> With 7 inks you could just use light C,M,Y toners.

Another great approach.
Tyler

Roy: that's good to know.  The problem of course is that many of us (well, 
maybe just me) don't have the technical expertise or equipment to be using 
these highly technocal tools  (I don't even know what an Eye-One is) to create 
our own profiles.  And, no offense intended to anyone, I personally have no 
interest in such technical proficiency -- I mean, I'm not a really "techie" kinda 
guy -- just a photographer.  Maybe it's just laziness or intimidation, but I kind of 
think of it like in the wet darkroom -- many people swear that ultimate quality is 
only obtainable by mixing your own developer and coating your own paper 
and negatives.  That may or may not be true, but it just wasn't something that 
appealed to me.

None of this is Roy's problem - he's designed a very flexible tool.  But it still 
leaves me in a bind.  What really needs to happen from my perspective is that 
everyone needs to kick in some $ to buy Roy a 7600, a bunch of grayscale 
inks and various papers so that he can use his technical expertise to benefit 
us all and design a whole buncha curves.  Oh, and we need to get Paul a 
7600 too, so he can get the UT7 inkset up and running sooner.  :-)

I'm actually only half-joking about the statement above.  I mean, think about it: 
I may one day pay Colorbyte $2500 for ImagePrint for the 9600 so that they 
can worry about and develop the technical stuff and I can just make prints.  If 
I'm willing to do that, it's not much of a leap to fund Paul or Roy.  (Just for the 
record, I'm not giving either of you $2500 on spec.  :-) ) But would I send Roy 
or Paul $100 to profile an inkset/paper combo for grayscale inks?  Sure.  And 
if 50 people did that....


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <
roy@h...> wrote:

> 
> As Tyler said, QTR has all the control for any ink set.  There aren't any
> existing profiles for the piezotone ink set.  However, with a good measuring
> device such as an Eye-One it is quite easy to support anything you want.  
>

Then buy QTR and pay your $50....

From: "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:18:43 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: BW inks for 7600


None of this is Roy's problem - he's designed a very flexible tool.  But it
still 
leaves me in a bind.  What really needs to happen from my perspective is
that 
everyone needs to kick in some $ to buy Roy a 7600, a bunch of grayscale
inks and various papers so that he can use his technical expertise to
benefit 
us all and design a whole buncha curves.  Oh, and we need to get Paul a
7600 too, so he can get the UT7 inkset up and running sooner.  :-)

I'm actually only half-joking about the statement above.  I mean, think
about it: 
I may one day pay Colorbyte $2500 for ImagePrint for the 9600 so that they
can worry about and develop the technical stuff and I can just make prints.
If 
I'm willing to do that, it's not much of a leap to fund Paul or Roy.  (Just
for the 
record, I'm not giving either of you $2500 on spec.  :-) ) But would I send
Roy 
or Paul $100 to profile an inkset/paper combo for grayscale inks?  Sure.
And 
if 50 people did that....





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Then buy QTR and pay your $50...."

You miss my point.  I already have QTR.  What I don't have is the time, ability 
or desire to learn how to use a spectrometer or whatever in order to use QTR 
to drive the Piezo or other grayscale inkset.  Not everyone will agree with my 
perspective, of course, but I'm willing to bet there are a lot of photographers 
who are not technophobes but are also not technophiles, and feel the same 
way.

Chip, did you not mention you were thinking of doing print for pay?
This is just like being dedicated to fine darkroom work, there is a
steep learning curve to really do things right and stay as crisis free
as possible. I can't imagine keeping things running smoothly here
without ongoing calibration and constant learning.
If you were doing fine art darkroom print for pay, how much expertise
would you be expected to have?
For personal work, anything goes of course.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc"
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> 
> "Then buy QTR and pay your $50...."
> 
> You miss my point.  I already have QTR.  What I don't have is the
time, ability 
> or desire to learn how to use a spectrometer or whatever in order to
use QTR 
> to drive the Piezo or other grayscale inkset.  Not everyone will
agree with my 
> perspective, of course, but I'm willing to bet there are a lot of
photographers 
> who are not technophobes but are also not technophiles, and feel the
same 
> way.

I don¹t want to argue with you (I am essentially agreeing with you) but my
point is that the sooner Roy gets paid $50 a person (the current ³donation²
for QTR) the more likely he will be able to get a broader array of profiles
up for different machines.  I think QTR is fantastic and I have paid my $50.
I encourage those that would like to use QTR or get additional QTR profiles
prepared to pay $50 ­ if on spec.  Roy has an order in for a 4000 (I
believe) and I am sure would love to have QTR earn him enough money to also
afford a 7600.  So pile on in and let¹s help him out!

(I would caution though that it is unrealistic to expect Roy to be able to
profile every possible ink set.  One of the beauties of QTR is that it is
infinitely flexible.  Others have the ability to profile as well and may
kindly pitch in for various ink and printer combinations.  But the more
people who pay the small amount Roy has asked then the more resources Roy
has to work with.  And also, I think you will find that if you can borrow a
photospectrometer (which may be a big if) then profiling is not as hard as
you might think.  I am not a technophile but am starting to get the hang of
it with Roy and Carl¹s help.  I wish I had a 7600.  BTW, how do you
calibrate your work or do you not do any colour work at all?)

:-)

From: "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:49:37 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: BW inks for 7600


"Then buy QTR and pay your $50...."

You miss my point.  I already have QTR.  What I don't have is the time,
ability 
or desire to learn how to use a spectrometer or whatever in order to use QTR
to drive the Piezo or other grayscale inkset.  Not everyone will agree with
my 
perspective, of course, but I'm willing to bet there are a lot of
photographers 
who are not technophobes but are also not technophiles, and feel the same
way.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Everything you say is true, of course.  My thinking is that the level of expertise 
I should have is such that I can produce consistent results that match both the 
client's expectations and "objective" quality standards (to the extent that such 
is possible, of course).  I am relatively technically proficient, but not to the 
extent of 'nuts and bolts" knowledge (e.g., I know how to use QTR with 
provided curves; I don't know how to make curves myself and am not sure that 
investing the time and money to do so is the best use of my time).

Without wasting bandwith by going too much into my specific idea, anything 
that requires massive intervention by me won't work.  The basic idea is not to 
run a print shop, but to provide a "digital darkroom" where people pay to rent 
time and make prints themselves, like Pikto in Toronto (http://www.pikto.ca/) 
(well, Pikto apaprently offers both rentals and full service) or Estudio Digital in 
Oaxaca, Mexico (no website).  Thus, for my purposes, explaining to clients 
that "Oh, I just  need to create and linearize a new curve in order to get 
maximum separation of tonality among the 0-5% values on a step wedge.  
Come back in 4 hours " is impractical.  

To follow thru on the wet darkroom analogy (maybe not a precise analogy 
given the differences in digital technology, but my starting point), if I were 
running a wet darkroom where people come in and rent enlargers, chemicals, 
etc., as the proprietor, I would need to know how to align the enlarger; mix the 
developing chemicals; explain how multigrade paper works, things like that.  I 
would not need to know how to build an enlarger, make developing 
chemicals from scratch, coat my own paper, etc.

So, maybe the problem with my idea is either (a) given the nature and level of 
complexity of digital technology, I am not the right person to pursue this idea 
or (b) the currently available technology does not meet both my expectations 
of quality and my level of technical proficiency (e.g., I could just offer B&W 
using black-only, which certainly  accords with my skill level but not the level 
of quality I expect (well, it actually does for some types of prints).  In other 
words, perhaps the problem is that a turn-key solution offering the quality I'm 
looking for does not yet exist.

I need to insert a caveat regarding "level of quality" -- the fact of the matter is 
that  I'm thinking of the grayscale inkset route as a selling point of my services 
-- as I mentioned in an earlier post, it just seems to me that a less-informed 
photog interested in this technology could very well ask "You expect me to 
believe that I can get the same quality B&W prints from software w. color inks 
as I could using all gray inks?"  Regardless of whether I personally believe it 
(and I am not wholly convinced, either), the question is whether the client will 
believe it.  of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so to the extent 
that I have prints hanging made w. QTR or ImagePrint that wow the clients, 
that's a selling point.

> Chip, did you not mention you were thinking of doing print for pay?
> This is just like being dedicated to fine darkroom work, there is a
> steep learning curve to really do things right and stay as crisis free
> as possible. I can't imagine keeping things running smoothly here
> without ongoing calibration and constant learning.
> If you were doing fine art darkroom print for pay, how much expertise
> would you be expected to have?
> For personal work, anything goes of course.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc"
> <chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > "Then buy QTR and pay your $50...."
> > 
> > You miss my point.  I already have QTR.  What I don't have is the
> time, ability 
> > or desire to learn how to use a spectrometer or whatever in order to
> use QTR 
> > to drive the Piezo or other grayscale inkset.  Not everyone will
> agree with my 
> > perspective, of course, but I'm willing to bet there are a lot of
> photographers 
> > who are not technophobes but are also not technophiles, and feel the
> same 
> > way.

Fair enough, and maybe I need to stop posting messages and send Roy my 
$50 (it's been on my to do list for a few days now).

Your last question reveals and interesting part (and perhaps flaw) or my 
approach to digital printing.  I do indeed print a lot of color.  My color 
calibration consists of the following: (a) get the image ready for printing using 
soft proofing with the proper profile in photoshop; (b) print the photograph on 
my 9600 or 4000; (c) hold the photograph up to my 23 inch Apple Cinema 
Display (calibrated using the limited ColorSync screen calibration tools) and 
see if it looks like the image on screen; (d) if it does, I'm done; (e) if it doesn't, 
try again.  I seldom find that I need to go to step (e) if the prior steps are done 
correctly because it either looks dead-on to me or the difference is so slight 
that it's not worth worrying about.  (My alternate workflow for (a)-(c) for prints 
on my 2200 w. ImagePrint is (a) open the file in IP (after prepping it in P'Shop, 
of course); (b) look at the preview in IP and see if I like it; if not, tweak as 
necessary; (c) print the image and hold it up to the IP preview.  I find the IP 
preview to be pretty accurate for color)

Of course, that's both for personal printing and for making prints for sale to 
clients who are not photographers (not output for other photographers).  If I 
begin offering output to photographs who need precise scientific color 
accuracy, e.g., not just tweaking the skin tones or making the sky look a bit 
warmer, but printing a product shot where the blue value of the product must 
fall at a scientifically exact point in the blue spectrum of the print, then my seat 
of the pants approach won't work.  Which means I need a screen and printer 
calibration thingy.  Which leads me to ask this: is the tool you would use to 
create a QTR curve the same as the color calibration tool(s) you would use for 
your screen and printer anyway (the Spyder stuff)?


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <
stevekale@b...> wrote:
> I don1t want to argue with you (I am essentially agreeing with you) but my
> point is that the sooner Roy gets paid $50 a person (the current 3donation2
> for QTR) the more likely he will be able to get a broader array of profiles
> up for different machines.  I think QTR is fantastic and I have paid my $50.
> I encourage those that would like to use QTR or get additional QTR profiles
> prepared to pay $50 - if on spec.  Roy has an order in for a 4000 (I
> believe) and I am sure would love to have QTR earn him enough money to 
also
> afford a 7600.  So pile on in and let1s help him out!
> 
> (I would caution though that it is unrealistic to expect Roy to be able to
> profile every possible ink set.  One of the beauties of QTR is that it is
> infinitely flexible.  Others have the ability to profile as well and may
> kindly pitch in for various ink and printer combinations.  But the more
> people who pay the small amount Roy has asked then the more resources 
Roy
> has to work with.  And also, I think you will find that if you can borrow a
> photospectrometer (which may be a big if) then profiling is not as hard as
> you might think.  I am not a technophile but am starting to get the hang of
> it with Roy and Carl1s help.  I wish I had a 7600.  BTW, how do you
> calibrate your work or do you not do any colour work at all?)
> 
> :-)
> 
> 
> From: "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@h...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:49:37 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: BW inks for 7600
> 
> 
> "Then buy QTR and pay your $50...."
> 
> You miss my point.  I already have QTR.  What I don't have is the time,
> ability 
> or desire to learn how to use a spectrometer or whatever in order to use 
QTR

> to drive the Piezo or other grayscale inkset.  Not everyone will agree with
> my 
> perspective, of course, but I'm willing to bet there are a lot of
> photographers 
> who are not technophobes but are also not technophiles, and feel the same
> way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sending Paul/Roy money isn't necessarily going to solve these problems.  Remember, these are two individuals that have lives outside of this forum.  And, even though they spend much time doing this stuff, money is probably not the motivator, and dollars don't buy them more hours in a day.  A small company would be required to do all of this on any scale bigger that what is already being done.  Who's going to start/run a small company on $50 donations?
 
Other than the IP solution, individuals need to thoroughly understand and control their own environments to use this stuff.  Roy, Paul, and other contribute mightly to this effort, but I don't expect them to 'idiot proof' the process for me. I pay Colorbyte to idiot proof IP, but if Roy were to port his RIP to PC, I'd be real interested, and expecting that I would have some 'tweaking' of my processes to do.  And then, Roy would get my money instead of Colorbyte.  A CBA here is probably going to reveal that there's very little potential profit in dong this, expecially on a long term basis.  Epson and HP (and maybe other big players) will, sooner than later, have products that solve these problems.  And, as expensive as the big guy's stuff seems to us, their solutions will probably be priced such that most of us will think it's a pretty good deal. 
 
Look at the R800, 7960, 4000 and ask yourself "What are they working on right now that we don't know about?"  The way this technology is advancing, it'll probably in our computer room soon.
 
Tom Baker
Tom Baker


chipcarterdc <chipcarterdc@...> wrote:
Roy: that's good to know. The problem of course is that many of us (well, 
maybe just me) don't have the technical expertise or equipment to be using 
these highly technocal tools (I don't even know what an Eye-One is) to create 
our own profiles. And, no offense intended to anyone, I personally have no 
interest in such technical proficiency -- I mean, I'm not a really "techie" kinda 
guy -- just a photographer. Maybe it's just laziness or intimidation, but I kind of 
think of it like in the wet darkroom -- many people swear that ultimate quality is 
only obtainable by mixing your own developer and coating your own paper 
and negatives. That may or may not be true, but it just wasn't something that 
appealed to me.

None of this is Roy's problem - he's designed a very flexible tool. But it still 
leaves me in a bind. What really needs to happen from my perspective is that 
everyone needs to kick in some $ to buy Roy a 7600, a bunch of grayscale 
inks and various papers so that he can use his technical expertise to benefit 
us all and design a whole buncha curves. Oh, and we need to get Paul a 
7600 too, so he can get the UT7 inkset up and running sooner. :-)

I'm actually only half-joking about the statement above. I mean, think about it: 
I may one day pay Colorbyte $2500 for ImagePrint for the 9600 so that they 
can worry about and develop the technical stuff and I can just make prints. If 
I'm willing to do that, it's not much of a leap to fund Paul or Roy. (Just for the 
record, I'm not giving either of you $2500 on spec. :-) ) But would I send Roy 
or Paul $100 to profile an inkset/paper combo for grayscale inks? Sure. And 
if 50 people did that....




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The answer to your question is yes:  Greytag MacBeth Eye-One.  I am quite
amazed you own all those printers but no calibration device.  With a good
calibration device there is no need for IP for colour work.  It really is
the only way to have what you see on the screen come out of your printer.
:-)

From: "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:48:29 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: BW inks for 7600

Fair enough, and maybe I need to stop posting messages and send Roy my
$50 (it's been on my to do list for a few days now).

Your last question reveals and interesting part (and perhaps flaw) or my
approach to digital printing.  I do indeed print a lot of color.  My color
calibration consists of the following: (a) get the image ready for printing
using 
soft proofing with the proper profile in photoshop; (b) print the photograph
on 
my 9600 or 4000; (c) hold the photograph up to my 23 inch Apple Cinema
Display (calibrated using the limited ColorSync screen calibration tools)
and 
see if it looks like the image on screen; (d) if it does, I'm done; (e) if
it doesn't, 
try again.  I seldom find that I need to go to step (e) if the prior steps
are done 
correctly because it either looks dead-on to me or the difference is so
slight 
that it's not worth worrying about.  (My alternate workflow for (a)-(c) for
prints 
on my 2200 w. ImagePrint is (a) open the file in IP (after prepping it in
P'Shop, 
of course); (b) look at the preview in IP and see if I like it; if not,
tweak as 
necessary; (c) print the image and hold it up to the IP preview.  I find the
IP 
preview to be pretty accurate for color)

Of course, that's both for personal printing and for making prints for sale
to 
clients who are not photographers (not output for other photographers).  If
I 
begin offering output to photographs who need precise scientific color
accuracy, e.g., not just tweaking the skin tones or making the sky look a
bit 
warmer, but printing a product shot where the blue value of the product must
fall at a scientifically exact point in the blue spectrum of the print, then
my seat 
of the pants approach won't work.  Which means I need a screen and printer
calibration thingy.  Which leads me to ask this: is the tool you would use
to 
create a QTR curve the same as the color calibration tool(s) you would use
for 
your screen and printer anyway (the Spyder stuff)?


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <
stevekale@b...> wrote:
> I don1t want to argue with you (I am essentially agreeing with you) but my
> point is that the sooner Roy gets paid $50 a person (the current 3donation2
> for QTR) the more likely he will be able to get a broader array of profiles
> up for different machines.  I think QTR is fantastic and I have paid my $50.
> I encourage those that would like to use QTR or get additional QTR profiles
> prepared to pay $50 - if on spec.  Roy has an order in for a 4000 (I
> believe) and I am sure would love to have QTR earn him enough money to
also
> afford a 7600.  So pile on in and let1s help him out!
> 
> (I would caution though that it is unrealistic to expect Roy to be able to
> profile every possible ink set.  One of the beauties of QTR is that it is
> infinitely flexible.  Others have the ability to profile as well and may
> kindly pitch in for various ink and printer combinations.  But the more
> people who pay the small amount Roy has asked then the more resources
Roy
> has to work with.  And also, I think you will find that if you can borrow a
> photospectrometer (which may be a big if) then profiling is not as hard as
> you might think.  I am not a technophile but am starting to get the hang of
> it with Roy and Carl1s help.  I wish I had a 7600.  BTW, how do you
> calibrate your work or do you not do any colour work at all?)
> 
> :-)
> 
> 
> From: "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@h...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:49:37 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: BW inks for 7600
> 
> 
> "Then buy QTR and pay your $50...."
> 
> You miss my point.  I already have QTR.  What I don't have is the time,
> ability 
> or desire to learn how to use a spectrometer or whatever in order to use
QTR
> to drive the Piezo or other grayscale inkset.  Not everyone will agree with
> my 
> perspective, of course, but I'm willing to bet there are a lot of
> photographers 
> who are not technophobes but are also not technophiles, and feel the same
> way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Are you speaking of Eye-One Display, Eye-One Photo or Eye-One 
Publish?  Given that I know nothing about these, I'm a bit confused --
 Eye-One Display (the one that costs $249) says that it's for 
calibrating displays, while the other two (significantly more 
expensive) say they are for both displays and printers (RGB printers 
for Eye-One Photo and CMYK printers for Eye-One Publish)).

Just for the record: I have always been aware of monitor calibration 
as a part of the digital workflow.  Quite frankly though, for my 
purposes up 'til now, I've never felt the need to do it as my print 
output has been within a whisker of what I see on screen.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> The answer to your question is yes:  Greytag MacBeth Eye-One.  I am 
quite
> amazed you own all those printers but no calibration device.  With 
a good
> calibration device there is no need for IP for colour work.  It 
really is
> the only way to have what you see on the screen come out of your 
printer.

> :-)
> 
> 
>

Sorry, Eye-One Photo.  (I suspect you will not need Publish.)  Not cheap but
awesome job and very easy to use.  Does your display and printer.  And the
photospectrometer can be used for profiling QTR and for soft-proofing etc.

From: "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:47:08 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: BW inks for 7600


Are you speaking of Eye-One Display, Eye-One Photo or Eye-One
Publish?  Given that I know nothing about these, I'm a bit confused --
 Eye-One Display (the one that costs $249) says that it's for
calibrating displays, while the other two (significantly more
expensive) say they are for both displays and printers (RGB printers
for Eye-One Photo and CMYK printers for Eye-One Publish)).




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the plug, Steve.

I'm a little reluctant to post sales-y come ons to come buy my product.
But the $50 is just a token amount, no way am I going to get rich on this.
The fee serves two purposes, one it's a vote of interest and satisfaction.
A lot of what I've done I did for my own printing, but making it so others
can use it probably has taken more time. So, why bother if no one cares?
The second purpose is to fund purchases.  I find it hard to justify
buying a printer, inks or whatever for other than my own use unless
there's some pay back.  Case in point, I do have a 4000 on order -- I'm not=

first on the list because I waffled a little trying to justify why I should=

buy another printer.

As far as the 7600 is concerned I have access to one with UC inks in it,
so I can profile those.  But seeing how its not mine and ink switches
are expensive and a hassle, I'm really not in a position to do a lot of
different inks.

I think Chip has a point about ready-to-use profile support.  But it does
seem like many at the high-end want to make custom profiles for
their specific printer, paper, ink etc.  I don't know how much these
things vary but if you start counting the combinations:
number of printers  X  number of possible inksets  X  number of papers,
there's no way anybody can cover them all.  

Thanks to all.
Regards,
Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@=
b...> 
wrote:
> I don¹t want to argue with you (I am essentially agreeing with you) but m=
y
> point is that the sooner Roy gets paid $50 a person (the current ³donatio=
n²
> for QTR) the more likely he will be able to get a broader array of profil=
es
> up for different machines.  I think QTR is fantastic and I have paid my $=
50.
> I encourage those that would like to use QTR or get additional QTR profil=
es
> prepared to pay $50 ­ if on spec.  Roy has an order in for a 4000 (I
> believe) and I am sure would love to have QTR earn him enough money to al=
so
> afford a 7600.  So pile on in and let¹s help him out!
> 
> (I would caution though that it is unrealistic to expect Roy to be able t=
o
> profile every possible ink set.  One of the beauties of QTR is that it is=

> infinitely flexible.  Others have the ability to profile as well and may
> kindly pitch in for various ink and printer combinations.  But the more
> people who pay the small amount Roy has asked then the more resources Roy=

> has to work with.  And also, I think you will find that if you can borrow=
 a
> photospectrometer (which may be a big if) then profiling is not as hard a=
s
> you might think.  I am not a technophile but am starting to get the hang =
of
> it with Roy and Carl¹s help.  I wish I had a 7600.  BTW, how do you
> calibrate your work or do you not do any colour work at all?)
> 
> :-)
> 
> 
> From: "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@h...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:49:37 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: BW inks for 7600
> 
> 
> "Then buy QTR and pay your $50...."
> 
> You miss my point.  I already have QTR.  What I don't have is the time,
> ability 
> or desire to learn how to use a spectrometer or whatever in order to use =
QTR
> to drive the Piezo or other grayscale inkset.  Not everyone will agree wi=
th

> my 
> perspective, of course, but I'm willing to bet there are a lot of
> photographers 
> who are not technophobes but are also not technophiles, and feel the same=

> way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think perhaps you are underestimating yourself.

Less than a year and a half ago I bought my first personal laptop (vs one
provided by the office for my banking work) with no clue as to how to
maintain one (I had IT staff who ³did all that²).  I asked a friend  about
laser printers to which he replied ³wouldn¹t you want an inkjet so you can
do more with your photography hobby...²  I was amazed and to be honest
shocked at what could be done with a Mac laptop and an Epson 2100 !  (I
suspect you are way ahead of where I was a year and a half ago!)  One thing
I learnt very early on is that a calibrated workflow can save an enormous
amount of time and frustration and certainly if I were to walk into a
³digital darkroom² to gain access to a large format printer the minimum I
would expect is a colour calibrated printer, ink, media and monitor
combination.  Using colour profiles made with the Eye-One Photo was a great
improvement on the canned Epson profiles.  A colour synced workflow doesn¹t
exist to the same extent in B&W although this list is testament to the
ability to soft-proof B&W work (search the archives under ³New icc based
Soft-proof profiles for QTR²).  Using the Eye-One Photo to calibrate a
monitor and printer for colour work really is so easy.   People on this list
(Roy, Carl et al) have also devised clever ways to use this same device to
make calibrating (writing curves) for QTR easier and, as I said above, even
for soft-proofing QTR.  I would estimate that in an afternoon (ignoring
allowing time for the printed calibration charts to dry) you could have all
your colour equipment calibrated.  Calibrating QTR for your printer/ink
combination will likely take a little more time and probably some helpful
input from Roy as to some of the starting parameters but a weekend would
likely cover it.  I am about to install a CFS from MIS on my 2100 and so,
with the change of inks, will need to recalibrate my printer.  I intend to
revisit calibrating QTR for my printer because I now realise how powerful
the tool is and if I can invest some time I will have access to a world of
flexibility.

Regards

Steve

From: "chipcarterdc" <chipcarterdc@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:35:33 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: BW inks for 7600

Everything you say is true, of course.  My thinking is that the level of
expertise 
I should have is such that I can produce consistent results that match both
the 
client's expectations and "objective" quality standards (to the extent that
such 
is possible, of course).  I am relatively technically proficient, but not to
the 
extent of 'nuts and bolts" knowledge (e.g., I know how to use QTR with
provided curves; I don't know how to make curves myself and am not sure that
investing the time and money to do so is the best use of my time).

Without wasting bandwith by going too much into my specific idea, anything
that requires massive intervention by me won't work.  The basic idea is not
to 
run a print shop, but to provide a "digital darkroom" where people pay to
rent 
time and make prints themselves, like Pikto in Toronto
(http://www.pikto.ca/)
(well, Pikto apaprently offers both rentals and full service) or Estudio
Digital in 
Oaxaca, Mexico (no website).  Thus, for my purposes, explaining to clients
that "Oh, I just  need to create and linearize a new curve in order to get
maximum separation of tonality among the 0-5% values on a step wedge.
Come back in 4 hours " is impractical.

To follow thru on the wet darkroom analogy (maybe not a precise analogy
given the differences in digital technology, but my starting point), if I
were 
running a wet darkroom where people come in and rent enlargers, chemicals,
etc., as the proprietor, I would need to know how to align the enlarger; mix
the 
developing chemicals; explain how multigrade paper works, things like that.
I 
would not need to know how to build an enlarger, make developing
chemicals from scratch, coat my own paper, etc.

So, maybe the problem with my idea is either (a) given the nature and level
of 
complexity of digital technology, I am not the right person to pursue this
idea 
or (b) the currently available technology does not meet both my expectations
of quality and my level of technical proficiency (e.g., I could just offer
B&W 
using black-only, which certainly  accords with my skill level but not the
level 
of quality I expect (well, it actually does for some types of prints).  In
other 
words, perhaps the problem is that a turn-key solution offering the quality
I'm 
looking for does not yet exist.

I need to insert a caveat regarding "level of quality" -- the fact of the
matter is 
that  I'm thinking of the grayscale inkset route as a selling point of my
services 
-- as I mentioned in an earlier post, it just seems to me that a
less-informed 
photog interested in this technology could very well ask "You expect me to
believe that I can get the same quality B&W prints from software w. color
inks 
as I could using all gray inks?"  Regardless of whether I personally believe
it 
(and I am not wholly convinced, either), the question is whether the client
will 
believe it.  of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so to the
extent 
that I have prints hanging made w. QTR or ImagePrint that wow the clients,
that's a selling point.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I also tried Roy's methodology for using the eye-one to create 
soft-proof profiles with a 9600. It really worked with QTR.

A further question Roy. Why can't I make a grayscale profile to use 
with the epson driver?
Say I have a system, not running QTR.

John Toles
http://www.dragonflyprinting.com/
http://www.dragonflygallery.ca/

On Apr 22, 2004, at 9:08 AM, Steve Kale wrote:

> <snip>
> Using the Eye-One Photo to calibrate a
> monitor and printer for colour work really is so easy.   People on 
> this list
> (Roy, Carl et al) have also devised clever ways to use this same 
> device to
> make calibrating (writing curves) for QTR easier and, as I said above, 
> even
> for soft-proofing QTR.  I would estimate that in an afternoon (ignoring
> allowing time for the printed calibration charts to dry) you could 
> have all
> your colour equipment calibrated.  Calibrating QTR for your printer/ink
> combination will likely take a little more time and probably some 
> helpful
> input from Roy as to some of the starting parameters but a weekend 
> would
> likely cover it.  I am about to install a CFS from MIS on my 2100 and 
> so,
> with the change of inks, will need to recalibrate my printer.  I 
> intend to
> revisit calibrating QTR for my printer because I now realise how 
> powerful
> the tool is and if I can invest some time I will have access to a 
> world of
> flexibility.
>
> Regards
>
> Steve
>

John,

I might not be getting your question, but if you have a GS file
and print to the Epson driver you're probably already printing
through some profile.  I would think you could soft-proof through
that.   Of course you could go through the soft-proof steps I
have and create a soft-proof only profile.  Remember that proofing
is then only as good as the monitor profile you are using.  The
whole color managed workflow is only as good as the weakest link.

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Dragonfly Imaging & Printing 
<dragonfly.printing@s...> wrote:

> I also tried Roy's methodology for using the eye-one to create 
> soft-proof profiles with a 9600. It really worked with QTR.
> 
> A further question Roy. Why can't I make a grayscale profile to use 
> with the epson driver?
> Say I have a system, not running QTR.
> 
> John Toles
> http://www.dragonflyprinting.com/
> http://www.dragonflygallery.ca/
> 
> On Apr 22, 2004, at 9:08 AM, Steve Kale wrote:
> 
> > <snip>
> > Using the Eye-One Photo to calibrate a
> > monitor and printer for colour work really is so easy.   People on 
> > this list
> > (Roy, Carl et al) have also devised clever ways to use this same 
> > device to
> > make calibrating (writing curves) for QTR easier and, as I said above, 
> > even
> > for soft-proofing QTR.  I would estimate that in an afternoon (ignoring
> > allowing time for the printed calibration charts to dry) you could 
> > have all
> > your colour equipment calibrated.  Calibrating QTR for your printer/ink
> > combination will likely take a little more time and probably some 
> > helpful
> > input from Roy as to some of the starting parameters but a weekend 
> > would
> > likely cover it.  I am about to install a CFS from MIS on my 2100 and 
> > so,
> > with the change of inks, will need to recalibrate my printer.  I 
> > intend to
> > revisit calibrating QTR for my printer because I now realise how 
> > powerful
> > the tool is and if I can invest some time I will have access to a 
> > world of
> > flexibility.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Steve
> >

Hi Roy,

Thanks for your reply. Sorry, I didn't make my question clearer. I'll 
try again. First, a bit of background info.

Your QTR is a wonderful product to use with the 9600 and UC inks. I 
tried it, and also made the soft-proof profiles.

Our present workflow, and custom profiles, are based on the epson 
driver. Since GIMP and epson don't play well, I had to remove QTR to 
use the epson driver again.

Finally my question ;-)

Is there a way to build a custom grayscale printer profile using the 
epson driver?
Or, would it be better to switch all printing, Color and B&W, to QTR?

Thanks again, John

On Apr 22, 2004, at 11:33 PM, Roy Harrington wrote:

>
> John,
>
> I might not be getting your question, but if you have a GS file
> and print to the Epson driver you're probably already printing
> through some profile.  I would think you could soft-proof through
> that.   Of course you could go through the soft-proof steps I
> have and create a soft-proof only profile.  Remember that proofing
> is then only as good as the monitor profile you are using.  The
> whole color managed workflow is only as good as the weakest link.
>
> Roy
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Dragonfly Imaging 
> & Printing
> <dragonfly.printing@s...> wrote:
>> I also tried Roy's methodology for using the eye-one to create
>> soft-proof profiles with a 9600. It really worked with QTR.
>>
>> A further question Roy. Why can't I make a grayscale profile to use
>> with the epson driver?
>> Say I have a system, not running QTR.
>>
>> John Toles
>> http://www.dragonflyprinting.com/
>> http://www.dragonflygallery.ca/

I have no problems running both QTR and Epson drivers to the same printer.
What do you mean by ³don¹t play well²?

From: Dragonfly Imaging & Printing <dragonfly.printing@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 07:45:16 -0400
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: BW inks for 7600

Hi Roy,

Thanks for your reply. Sorry, I didn't make my question clearer. I'll
try again. First, a bit of background info.

Your QTR is a wonderful product to use with the 9600 and UC inks. I
tried it, and also made the soft-proof profiles.

Our present workflow, and custom profiles, are based on the epson
driver. Since GIMP and epson don't play well, I had to remove QTR to
use the epson driver again.

Finally my question ;-)

Is there a way to build a custom grayscale printer profile using the
epson driver?
Or, would it be better to switch all printing, Color and B&W, to QTR?

Thanks again, John

On Apr 22, 2004, at 11:33 PM, Roy Harrington wrote:




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve,

Are you using a 9600 USB connection in OSX.3.3?
If GIMP is present, I get communication errors.
So, for me, it appears that it's a choice between the epson driver or  
QTR.

John

On Apr 23, 2004, at 8:31 AM, Steve Kale wrote:

> I have no problems running both QTR and Epson drivers to the same  
> printer.
> What do you mean by “don’t play well”?
>
>
> From: Dragonfly Imaging & Printing <dragonfly.printing@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 07:45:16 -0400
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: BW inks for 7600
>
> Hi Roy,
>
> Thanks for your reply. Sorry, I didn't make my question clearer. I'll
> try again. First, a bit of background info.
>
> Your QTR is a wonderful product to use with the 9600 and UC inks. I
> tried it, and also made the soft-proof profiles.
>
> Our present workflow, and custom profiles, are based on the epson
> driver. Since GIMP and epson don't play well, I had to remove QTR to
> use the epson driver again.
>
> Finally my question ;-)
>
> Is there a way to build a custom grayscale printer profile using the
> epson driver?
> Or, would it be better to switch all printing, Color and B&W, to QTR?
>
> Thanks again, John
>
> On Apr 22, 2004, at 11:33 PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  
> ---------------------~-->
> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> Printer at MyInks.com.  Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &  
> Canada.
> http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ~->
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to  
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from  
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the  
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰  
> AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE  
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE  
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT  
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),  
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF  
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD  
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER  
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

There is an updated (4/14/04) USB plugin file on the Epson site that is  
supposed to correct communication problems on all large format printers:
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/ 
supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&oid=14427&prodoid=19302858&infoType=Dow 
nloads&platform=Macintosh

On Friday, April 23, 2004, at 09:31  AM, Dragonfly Imaging & Printing  
wrote:

> Steve,
>
> Are you using a 9600 USB connection in OSX.3.3?
> If GIMP is present, I get communication errors.
> So, for me, it appears that it's a choice between the epson driver or
> QTR.
>
> John
>
> On Apr 23, 2004, at 8:31 AM, Steve Kale wrote:
>
>> I have no problems running both QTR and Epson drivers to the same
>> printer.
>> What do you mean by “don’t play well”?
>>
>>
>> From: Dragonfly Imaging & Printing <dragonfly.printing@...>
>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 07:45:16 -0400
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: BW inks for 7600
>>
>> Hi Roy,
>>
>> Thanks for your reply. Sorry, I didn't make my question clearer. I'll
>> try again. First, a bit of background info.
>>
>> Your QTR is a wonderful product to use with the 9600 and UC inks. I
>> tried it, and also made the soft-proof profiles.
>>
>> Our present workflow, and custom profiles, are based on the epson
>> driver. Since GIMP and epson don't play well, I had to remove QTR to
>> use the epson driver again.
>>
>> Finally my question ;-)
>>
>> Is there a way to build a custom grayscale printer profile using the
>> epson driver?
>> Or, would it be better to switch all printing, Color and B&W, to QTR?
>>
>> Thanks again, John
>>
>> On Apr 22, 2004, at 11:33 PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>> ---------------------~-->
>> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
>> Printer at MyInks.com.  Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
>> Canada.
>> http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
>> http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ~->
>>
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>> resources as they are often being updated.
>>
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>
>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
>> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
>> this same page.
>>
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
>> keep them short.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
>> the membership without notice.
>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
>> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
>> removed from the membership.
>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
>> Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the
>> Files section:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>
>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰
>> AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
>> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
>> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
>> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
>> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
>> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
>> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
>> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
>> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
>> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to  
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from  
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the  
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER”  
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE  
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE  
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT  
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),  
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF  
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD  
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER  
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Ok I am not using a 9600 but rather a 2100.  USB and OS-X 10.3.3.  No
problems switching from one driver to the next or switching from matt to pk
ink etc.  Maybe the issue is just the 9600 driver.  Have you done the usual
correction runs with Print Center Repair?

> From: Dragonfly Imaging & Printing <dragonfly.printing@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:31:02 -0400
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: BW inks for 7600
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Are you using a 9600 USB connection in OSX.3.3?
> If GIMP is present, I get communication errors.
> So, for me, it appears that it's a choice between the epson driver or
> QTR.
> 
> John
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Dragonfly Imaging & Printing 
<dragonfly.printing@s...> wrote:
> Hi Roy,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. Sorry, I didn't make my question clearer. I'll 
> try again. First, a bit of background info.
> 
> Your QTR is a wonderful product to use with the 9600 and UC inks. I 
> tried it, and also made the soft-proof profiles.
> 
> Our present workflow, and custom profiles, are based on the epson 
> driver. Since GIMP and epson don't play well, I had to remove QTR to 
> use the epson driver again.

The only difficulty that I know of is to make sure you are running the
right driver -- Epson for color, QTR for B&W.  You mention communications
errors in you other post.  I don't know of anything that would case this
unless you are trying to do both drivers simultaneously -- i.e. have
prints spooled in both drivers at the same time.

If you have any difficulty getting both drivers setup.  Do the Epson
driver first -- it should be called Stylus Pro 9600.  Then install QTR
running the Install9600 script.  This sets up a Quad9600 printer.
From then on its just a matter of selecting a Printer in the Print
dialogs.

> 
> Finally my question ;-)
> 
> Is there a way to build a custom grayscale printer profile using the 
> epson driver?

Sorry, but I just don't get it.  You can create ICC RGB profiles for the
epson driver, and you can create QTR profiles for QTR.  But they are
totally different and worthless to mix them.  The only answer seems
to be, no.

> Or, would it be better to switch all printing, Color and B&W, to QTR?

I wouldn't recommend QTR drivers for color.  But it is possible, you
would need new color profiles but I haven't tried it at all.

Roy

> 
> Thanks again, John
> 
> On Apr 22, 2004, at 11:33 PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
> 
> >
> > John,
> >
> > I might not be getting your question, but if you have a GS file
> > and print to the Epson driver you're probably already printing
> > through some profile.  I would think you could soft-proof through
> > that.   Of course you could go through the soft-proof steps I
> > have and create a soft-proof only profile.  Remember that proofing
> > is then only as good as the monitor profile you are using.  The
> > whole color managed workflow is only as good as the weakest link.
> >
> > Roy
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Dragonfly Imaging 
> > & Printing
> > <dragonfly.printing@s...> wrote:
> >> I also tried Roy's methodology for using the eye-one to create
> >> soft-proof profiles with a 9600. It really worked with QTR.
> >>
> >> A further question Roy. Why can't I make a grayscale profile to use
> >> with the epson driver?
> >> Say I have a system, not running QTR.
> >>
> >> John Toles
> >> http://www.dragonflyprinting.com/
> >> http://www.dragonflygallery.ca/

Thanks Roy,

You answered what I needed to know. Epson driver for color, QTR for B&W.

I did use your suggested method for adding the epson driver, then add 
the QTR printer. QTR worked fine, but not the epson driver. Maybe the 
new epson file, which Carl suggested, might help this.

Cheers, John

On Apr 23, 2004, at 12:18 PM, Roy Harrington wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Dragonfly Imaging 
> & Printing
> <dragonfly.printing@s...> wrote:
>> Hi Roy,
>>
>> Thanks for your reply. Sorry, I didn't make my question clearer. I'll
>> try again. First, a bit of background info.
>>
>> Your QTR is a wonderful product to use with the 9600 and UC inks. I
>> tried it, and also made the soft-proof profiles.
>>
>> Our present workflow, and custom profiles, are based on the epson
>> driver. Since GIMP and epson don't play well, I had to remove QTR to
>> use the epson driver again.
>
> The only difficulty that I know of is to make sure you are running the
> right driver -- Epson for color, QTR for B&W.  You mention 
> communications
> errors in you other post.  I don't know of anything that would case 
> this
> unless you are trying to do both drivers simultaneously -- i.e. have
> prints spooled in both drivers at the same time.
>
> If you have any difficulty getting both drivers setup.  Do the Epson
> driver first -- it should be called Stylus Pro 9600.  Then install QTR
> running the Install9600 script.  This sets up a Quad9600 printer.
> From then on its just a matter of selecting a Printer in the Print
> dialogs.
>
>>
>> Finally my question ;-)
>>
>> Is there a way to build a custom grayscale printer profile using the
>> epson driver?
>
> Sorry, but I just don't get it.  You can create ICC RGB profiles for 
> the
> epson driver, and you can create QTR profiles for QTR.  But they are
> totally different and worthless to mix them.  The only answer seems
> to be, no.
>
>> Or, would it be better to switch all printing, Color and B&W, to QTR?
>
> I wouldn't recommend QTR drivers for color.  But it is possible, you
> would need new color profiles but I haven't tried it at all.
>
> Roy