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Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spot metering?

Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spot metering?

2004-05-03 by Steve Kale

I am thoroughly baffled by the following.  I am trying to take spot measurements with a 
Gretag i1 Photo device (as part of taking a look at making curves for QTR).  I am using the 
Measure Tool (part of Profilemaker Pro 4.1.5).  When I use Spot I with XYZ selected as my 
colour space I am getting weird Y values, eg 55 for the 100 step wedge.  If I measure the 
21 strip using chart and run it through Roy's calc-density I get sensible Y and density 
values, eg 2.62 for Y at 100, from the same patch.  Am I just missing something obvious 
here or is the i1 on the blink?

Re: Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spot metering?

2004-05-03 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale" <stevekale@b...> 
wrote:
> I am thoroughly baffled by the following.  I am trying to take spot measurements with a 
> Gretag i1 Photo device (as part of taking a look at making curves for QTR).  I am using 
the 
> Measure Tool (part of Profilemaker Pro 4.1.5).  When I use Spot I with XYZ selected as 
my 
> colour space I am getting weird Y values, eg 55 for the 100 step wedge.  If I measure the 
> 21 strip using chart and run it through Roy's calc-density I get sensible Y and density 
> values, eg 2.62 for Y at 100, from the same patch.  Am I just missing something obvious 
> here or is the i1 on the blink?

Hi Steve,

It works fine on mine, but I never really use "Y".   Are you sure you are
looking at the right column -- the first measurement shows up in th
Reference column and all subsequent values are in the Sample column
unless you manually switch back.

Roy

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spot metering?

2004-05-03 by Steve Kale

I am definitely looking at the Sample column and taking the second value
down.  I think this photospectrometer is on the blink  -  if I use chart and
try to measure the strip by selecting patch (rather than strip with gaps) I
get the same sort of errors eg 0-30 step values of just over 166 which would
be a negative value when calculating ­log10(Y) to get the density figure.
It¹s just weird that it seems to work in strip mode.  I was wondering if I
was simply doing something basic very wrong.  Looks like I am dead in the
water while I send this off to get checked out.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>

Hi Steve,

It works fine on mine, but I never really use "Y".   Are you sure you are
looking at the right column -- the first measurement shows up in th
Reference column and all subsequent values are in the Sample column
unless you manually switch back.

Roy







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spot metering?

2004-05-03 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@=
b...> 
wrote:
> I am definitely looking at the Sample column and taking the second value

I guess I'm still suspicious that you might be looking at the wrong column.=

When the spot window first comes up, the Reference column is selected.
So the first click on the device fills in the Reference column, but immedia=
tely
after the Sample column is selected but no values have been filled in.
So it's in a state where the right column named Sample is selected but the
values you should be looking at are on the left under Reference.
After this you can continue measuring by clicking the device and the values=

will all be under Sample.

Roy

> down.  I think this photospectrometer is on the blink  -  if I use chart =
and
> try to measure the strip by selecting patch (rather than strip with gaps)=
 I
> get the same sort of errors eg 0-30 step values of just over 166 which wo=
uld
> be a negative value when calculating ­log10(Y) to get the density figure.=

> It¹s just weird that it seems to work in strip mode.  I was wondering if =
I
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> was simply doing something basic very wrong.  Looks like I am dead in the=

> water while I send this off to get checked out.
> 
> 
> From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...>
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> It works fine on mine, but I never really use "Y".   Are you sure you are=

> looking at the right column -- the first measurement shows up in th
> Reference column and all subsequent values are in the Sample column
> unless you manually switch back.
> 
> Roy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spot metering?

2004-05-04 by Steve Kale

Here is precisely what I see.  When I open Measure Tool it searches for the
dongle and then says it will operate in limited demo mode.  I then click on
Spot and it asks me to place the device on a white reference.  When I click
ok a window called Spot Measurement opens with Lab selected and Reference
checked.  Underneath reference are the values 80,0 and 0 (54.7, 56.7, 46.8
if the colour space is changed to XYZ).  These same values appear below
sample.  I then select Sample and then take the first measurement.  If I
measure the 100% step on the K ink of the ink separation page I get the
following values below sample (ref values remain unchanged): 49.3, 49.9,
32.1 (Lab 76.0, 3.3, 12.6).  And this is a very black patch.  If I then
measure the 100% patch of the combo ink, ie a dark grey patch) I get 141.9,
142.9, 110.7 (Lab 114.7, 5.4, 4.7).  Measuring EEM paper white I get 189.4,
166.2, 189.0 (Lab 121.4, 33.9, -26.8).

If at the beginning rather than selecting Sample I click start then
Reference becomes 189.6, 166.3, 189.4 (Lab 121.4, 34.0, -26.9).  Sample is
then checked.  Subsequent measures of the same patches and paper white are
not materially different from the numbers above.

It is as though the scale is completely out of whack.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>

I guess I'm still suspicious that you might be looking at the wrong column.=

When the spot window first comes up, the Reference column is selected.
So the first click on the device fills in the Reference column, but immedia=
tely
after the Sample column is selected but no values have been filled in.
So it's in a state where the right column named Sample is selected but the
values you should be looking at are on the left under Reference.
After this you can continue measuring by clicking the device and the values=

will all be under Sample.

Roy




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spot metering?

2004-05-04 by Carl Schofield

Steve,

You might want to try using i1 Share instead of MeasureTool for doing 
your spot measurements.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 08:29  PM, Steve Kale wrote:

> Here is precisely what I see.  When I open Measure Tool it searches 
> for the
> dongle and then says it will operate in limited demo mode.  I then 
> click on
> Spot and it asks me to place the device on a white reference.  When I 
> click
> ok a window called Spot Measurement opens with Lab selected and 
> Reference
> checked.  Underneath reference are the values 80,0 and 0 (54.7, 56.7, 
> 46.8
> if the colour space is changed to XYZ).  These same values appear below
> sample.  I then select Sample and then take the first measurement.  If 
> I
> measure the 100% step on the K ink of the ink separation page I get the
> following values below sample (ref values remain unchanged): 49.3, 
> 49.9,
> 32.1 (Lab 76.0, 3.3, 12.6).  And this is a very black patch.  If I then
> measure the 100% patch of the combo ink, ie a dark grey patch) I get 
> 141.9,
> 142.9, 110.7 (Lab 114.7, 5.4, 4.7).  Measuring EEM paper white I get 
> 189.4,
> 166.2, 189.0 (Lab 121.4, 33.9, -26.8).
>
> If at the beginning rather than selecting Sample I click start then
> Reference becomes 189.6, 166.3, 189.4 (Lab 121.4, 34.0, -26.9).  
> Sample is
> then checked.  Subsequent measures of the same patches and paper white 
> are
> not materially different from the numbers above.
>
> It is as though the scale is completely out of whack.
>
>
> From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
>
> I guess I'm still suspicious that you might be looking at the wrong 
> column.=
>
> When the spot window first comes up, the Reference column is selected.
> So the first click on the device fills in the Reference column, but 
> immedia=
> tely
> after the Sample column is selected but no values have been filled in.
> So it's in a state where the right column named Sample is selected but 
> the
> values you should be looking at are on the left under Reference.
> After this you can continue measuring by clicking the device and the 
> values=
>
> will all be under Sample.
>
> Roy
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
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> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the 
> Files section:
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>
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> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ 
> AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spotmetering?

2004-05-04 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
>
> Here is precisely what I see.  When I open Measure Tool it
> searches for the
> dongle and then says it will operate in limited demo mode.  I
> then click on
> Spot and it asks me to place the device on a white reference.
> When I click
> ok a window called Spot Measurement opens with Lab selected and Reference
> checked.  Underneath reference are the values 80,0 and 0 (54.7, 56.7, 46.8
> if the colour space is changed to XYZ).  These same values appear below
> sample.  I then select Sample and then take the first measurement.  If I
> measure the 100% step on the K ink of the ink separation page I get the
> following values below sample (ref values remain unchanged): 49.3, 49.9,
> 32.1 (Lab 76.0, 3.3, 12.6).  And this is a very black patch.  If I then
> measure the 100% patch of the combo ink, ie a dark grey patch) I
> get 141.9,
> 142.9, 110.7 (Lab 114.7, 5.4, 4.7).  Measuring EEM paper white I
> get 189.4,
> 166.2, 189.0 (Lab 121.4, 33.9, -26.8).

I can suggest a couple of sanity checks. First, make sure there is no crud
on the white reference or on the opening to the Eye-One. Second, make sure
you see a reasonable amount of light if you look into the opening while you
take a reading.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spot metering?

2004-05-04 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> 
wrote:
> Here is precisely what I see.  When I open Measure Tool it searches for the
> dongle and then says it will operate in limited demo mode.  I then click on
> Spot and it asks me to place the device on a white reference.  When I click
> ok a window called Spot Measurement opens with Lab selected and Reference
> checked.  Underneath reference are the values 80,0 and 0 (54.7, 56.7, 46.8
> if the colour space is changed to XYZ).  These same values appear below
> sample.  I then select Sample and then take the first measurement.  If I
> measure the 100% step on the K ink of the ink separation page I get the
> following values below sample (ref values remain unchanged): 49.3, 49.9,
> 32.1 (Lab 76.0, 3.3, 12.6).  And this is a very black patch.  If I then
> measure the 100% patch of the combo ink, ie a dark grey patch) I get 141.9,
> 142.9, 110.7 (Lab 114.7, 5.4, 4.7).  Measuring EEM paper white I get 189.4,
> 166.2, 189.0 (Lab 121.4, 33.9, -26.8).
> 
> If at the beginning rather than selecting Sample I click start then
> Reference becomes 189.6, 166.3, 189.4 (Lab 121.4, 34.0, -26.9).  Sample is
> then checked.  Subsequent measures of the same patches and paper white are
> not materially different from the numbers above.
> 
> It is as though the scale is completely out of whack.

Yes, that sounds out of whack.  I don't think you should every
get a 3 digit value.  Lab goes from 0 to 100.

Roy
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...>
> 
> I guess I'm still suspicious that you might be looking at the wrong column.=
> 
> When the spot window first comes up, the Reference column is selected.
> So the first click on the device fills in the Reference column, but immedia=
> tely
> after the Sample column is selected but no values have been filled in.
> So it's in a state where the right column named Sample is selected but the
> values you should be looking at are on the left under Reference.
> After this you can continue measuring by clicking the device and the values=
> 
> will all be under Sample.
> 
> Roy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spot metering?

2004-05-04 by Steve Kale

Carl

Thanks.  i1 Share seems to be delivering much more reasonable results.  How
do I calculate density values from Lab data?  (Bruce Lindbloom's site is way
out there for me!) 

Sounds like MeasureTool was corrupted in some way.  I have tried deleting
all the ProfileMaker items (folder in Applications, System/Preferences,
User/Library/Preferences) and doing a reinstallation but I still have the
same problem.  Any ideas?

Thanks

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>

> Steve,
> 
> You might want to try using i1 Share instead of MeasureTool for doing
> your spot measurements.
> 
> Carl

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spot metering?

2004-05-04 by Carl Schofield

Steve,

Remember this thread?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/39605

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tuesday, May 4, 2004, at 06:02  AM, Steve Kale wrote:

> Carl
>
> Thanks.  i1 Share seems to be delivering much more reasonable results. 
>  How
> do I calculate density values from Lab data?  (Bruce Lindbloom's site 
> is way
> out there for me!)
>
> Sounds like MeasureTool was corrupted in some way.  I have tried 
> deleting
> all the ProfileMaker items (folder in Applications, System/Preferences,
> User/Library/Preferences) and doing a reinstallation but I still have 
> the
> same problem.  Any ideas?
>
> Thanks
>
> Steve
>
>> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
>
>> Steve,
>>
>> You might want to try using i1 Share instead of MeasureTool for doing
>> your spot measurements.
>>
>> Carl

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spot metering?

2004-05-04 by Steve Kale

Carl

Thanks again.  I had written down the last part of the formula only!
(Density =....)  This MeasureTool thing is weird because I used it before
without problems.  When one item doesn¹t work it makes you wonder what else
is not working properly (ie should I rely on the strip measurements for
linearization...).  Well I will keep poking at it.

Cheers

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 08:15:11 -0400
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spot
metering?

Steve,

Remember this thread?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/39605

Carl




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1 spot metering?

2004-05-04 by Carl Schofield

Steve,

I think that the measurements in strip reading mode should be better  
because you are integrating more data per patch as compared to a single  
point measurement in spot mode.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tuesday, May 4, 2004, at 08:41  AM, Steve Kale wrote:

> Carl
>
> Thanks again.  I had written down the last part of the formula only!
> (Density =....)  This MeasureTool thing is weird because I used it  
> before
> without problems.  When one item doesn’t work it makes you wonder what  
> else
> is not working properly (ie should I rely on the strip measurements for
> linearization...).  Well I will keep poking at it.
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve
>
>
> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 08:15:11 -0400
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Doing soemthing stupidly wrong with i1  
> spot
> metering?
>
> Steve,
>
> Remember this thread?
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/ 
> 39605
>
> Carl
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to  
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from  
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the  
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰  
> AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE  
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE  
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT  
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),  
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF  
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD  
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER  
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

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