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UT-7 inkset: What blacks used for neutral printing?

UT-7 inkset: What blacks used for neutral printing?

2004-05-10 by chipcarterdc

When I looked at the MIS UT-7 page, I saw the following inks listed:

Eboni Black
(Cyan Position) Dark Black	
(Magenta Position) Cool Toner	
(Yellow Position) Sepia Toner
(Light Cyan Position) Light Gray	
(Light Magenat Position) Light Cool Toner	
(Light Black Position) Custom Light Black	

I see 3 that are denoted as "toners" (Cool, Sepia and Light Cool).  That 
leaves, I assume, 4 blacks used in neutral printing (Eboni Black, Dark Black, 
Light Gray and Custom Light Black)

I have 2 questions: (a) Are my assumptions above correct as to which inks are 
used for neutral printing?  (b) More fundamentally, if I am correct, I'm 
wondering how much of an improvement in quality one could expect to see 
for neutral grayscale printing with the 4 blacks described above, versus using 
a RIP with the Epson inks.  I don't know for sure what Epson inks ImagePrint 
uses for neutral grayscale, but I think I read somewhere that it's predominately 
black and light black, with smaller amounts of cyan and magenta to cool down 
the inherent warmth of the Epson blacks.  (I have no idea what inks 
QuadTone RIP uses or in what proportions).  Given that I don't have access to 
a UT-7 inkset, I guess I'm wondering what type of improvements in quality or 
just difference in appearance we'd be likely to see with the UT-7 inkset.  Is it a 
matter of smoother highlights, given that the Epson inkset doesn't include a 
highly diluted black?  Deeper blacks overall?  Better tonal transitions?

(Please keep in mind that I'm discounting the toners -- I'm only asking about 
neutral grayscale.  Also, I'm not asking about the relative longevity, although 
this is an issue, given that some have hypothesized that you may get uneven 
fading over time by using any color inks to produce grayscale).

Re: UT-7 inkset: What blacks used for neutral printing?

2004-05-10 by Roy Harrington

I think the MIS names are a little confusing.  I haven't actually seen
the inks yet but I have worked with the UT2 inks and know the idea.

All the inks are primarily grays with various color tones.
K is Eboni
C and LC are the warm pure carbon grays.
M and LM are the cool grays (carbon + blue color)
Y is the sepia colored gray.
LK is a custom neutral gray.

If you do a simple neutral print all the inks will be used.  The ink
colors were picked so that the default mix done by the Epson driver
results in all the tones neutralizing each other.

How does this compare to the UltraChromes with QuadToneRIP or
ImagePrint?   Both RIPs do essentially the same thing -- they use
primarily K and LK.   These are warm grays so the RIP's add some
LC and LM (which is basically blue) to neutralize the warmth of the
grays.  Software controls the amount of these colors needed to
make a neutral print.  In the UT7 approach gray ink and the same
cyan and magenta inks were all mixed together for the cool grays
M and LM.   The epson driver then mixes all the inks.  In the end
you'll have very much the same pigments on the paper -- warm
carbon pigment + cyan pigment + magenta pigment.

The differences are that UT7 allows you to use the Epson driver
whereas the UC inks require special software.   

A simple way to look at it is:
With UT7 the inks are taylored to the software i.e. Epson driver.
With RIPs the software is taylored to the UC inks.

As far as quality I don't have a comparison in hand but I expect they
will be very similar.  The UT2s on a 1270 versys UC & QTR on 2200
are very similar.  Tonal smoothness and transitions are going to
depend on the profiles and curves you use.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> When I looked at the MIS UT-7 page, I saw the following inks listed:
> 
> Eboni Black
> (Cyan Position) Dark Black	
> (Magenta Position) Cool Toner	
> (Yellow Position) Sepia Toner
> (Light Cyan Position) Light Gray	
> (Light Magenat Position) Light Cool Toner	
> (Light Black Position) Custom Light Black	
> 
> I see 3 that are denoted as "toners" (Cool, Sepia and Light Cool).  That 
> leaves, I assume, 4 blacks used in neutral printing (Eboni Black, Dark Black, 
> Light Gray and Custom Light Black)
> 
> I have 2 questions: (a) Are my assumptions above correct as to which inks are 
> used for neutral printing?  (b) More fundamentally, if I am correct, I'm 
> wondering how much of an improvement in quality one could expect to see 
> for neutral grayscale printing with the 4 blacks described above, versus using 
> a RIP with the Epson inks.  I don't know for sure what Epson inks ImagePrint 
> uses for neutral grayscale, but I think I read somewhere that it's predominately 
> black and light black, with smaller amounts of cyan and magenta to cool down 
> the inherent warmth of the Epson blacks.  (I have no idea what inks 
> QuadTone RIP uses or in what proportions).  Given that I don't have access to 
> a UT-7 inkset, I guess I'm wondering what type of improvements in quality or 
> just difference in appearance we'd be likely to see with the UT-7 inkset.  Is it a 
> matter of smoother highlights, given that the Epson inkset doesn't include a 
> highly diluted black?  Deeper blacks overall?  Better tonal transitions?
> 
> (Please keep in mind that I'm discounting the toners -- I'm only asking about 
> neutral grayscale.  Also, I'm not asking about the relative longevity, although 
> this is an issue, given that some have hypothesized that you may get uneven 
> fading over time by using any color inks to produce grayscale).

Re: UT-7 inkset: What blacks used for neutral printing?

2004-05-11 by chipcarterdc

Interesting...thanks for your response.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <
roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> I think the MIS names are a little confusing.  I haven't actually seen
> the inks yet but I have worked with the UT2 inks and know the idea.
> 
> All the inks are primarily grays with various color tones.
> K is Eboni
> C and LC are the warm pure carbon grays.
> M and LM are the cool grays (carbon + blue color)
> Y is the sepia colored gray.
> LK is a custom neutral gray.
> 
> If you do a simple neutral print all the inks will be used.  The ink
> colors were picked so that the default mix done by the Epson driver
> results in all the tones neutralizing each other.
> 
> How does this compare to the UltraChromes with QuadToneRIP or
> ImagePrint?   Both RIPs do essentially the same thing -- they use
> primarily K and LK.   These are warm grays so the RIP's add some
> LC and LM (which is basically blue) to neutralize the warmth of the
> grays.  Software controls the amount of these colors needed to
> make a neutral print.  In the UT7 approach gray ink and the same
> cyan and magenta inks were all mixed together for the cool grays
> M and LM.   The epson driver then mixes all the inks.  In the end
> you'll have very much the same pigments on the paper -- warm
> carbon pigment + cyan pigment + magenta pigment.
> 
> The differences are that UT7 allows you to use the Epson driver
> whereas the UC inks require special software.   
> 
> A simple way to look at it is:
> With UT7 the inks are taylored to the software i.e. Epson driver.
> With RIPs the software is taylored to the UC inks.
> 
> As far as quality I don't have a comparison in hand but I expect they
> will be very similar.  The UT2s on a 1270 versys UC & QTR on 2200
> are very similar.  Tonal smoothness and transitions are going to
> depend on the profiles and curves you use.
> 
> Roy
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc" 
> <chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> > When I looked at the MIS UT-7 page, I saw the following inks listed:
> > 
> > Eboni Black
> > (Cyan Position) Dark Black	
> > (Magenta Position) Cool Toner	
> > (Yellow Position) Sepia Toner
> > (Light Cyan Position) Light Gray	
> > (Light Magenat Position) Light Cool Toner	
> > (Light Black Position) Custom Light Black	
> > 
> > I see 3 that are denoted as "toners" (Cool, Sepia and Light Cool).  That 
> > leaves, I assume, 4 blacks used in neutral printing (Eboni Black, Dark 
Black, 
> > Light Gray and Custom Light Black)
> > 
> > I have 2 questions: (a) Are my assumptions above correct as to which inks 
are 
> > used for neutral printing?  (b) More fundamentally, if I am correct, I'm 
> > wondering how much of an improvement in quality one could expect to 
see 
> > for neutral grayscale printing with the 4 blacks described above, versus 
using 
> > a RIP with the Epson inks.  I don't know for sure what Epson inks 
ImagePrint 
> > uses for neutral grayscale, but I think I read somewhere that it's 
predominately 
> > black and light black, with smaller amounts of cyan and magenta to cool 
down 
> > the inherent warmth of the Epson blacks.  (I have no idea what inks 
> > QuadTone RIP uses or in what proportions).  Given that I don't have 
access to 
> > a UT-7 inkset, I guess I'm wondering what type of improvements in quality 
or 
> > just difference in appearance we'd be likely to see with the UT-7 inkset.  Is 
it a 
> > matter of smoother highlights, given that the Epson inkset doesn't include 
a 
> > highly diluted black?  Deeper blacks overall?  Better tonal transitions?
> > 
> > (Please keep in mind that I'm discounting the toners -- I'm only asking 
about 
> > neutral grayscale.  Also, I'm not asking about the relative longevity, 
although 
> > this is an issue, given that some have hypothesized that you may get 
uneven 
> > fading over time by using any color inks to produce grayscale).

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