Digital BW, The Print

I just started using a new framer who seems to really be high quality 
oriented (at least with the frame/mat supplies).

He is offering a laquer spray at a cost of $1 for 8x10 and $3 for 
16x20...reasonable enough...but I have never heard of laquer as the 
spray. Is this a good idea?

Anyone know?

Tom O'Connell

Hi Tom,

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom OConnell" 
<tomoc@y...> wrote:
> I just started using a new framer who seems to really be high 
> quality oriented (at least with the frame/mat supplies).
> He is offering a laquer spray at a cost of $1 for 8x10 and $3 for 
> 16x20...reasonable enough...but I have never heard of laquer as the 
> spray. Is this a good idea?

I'm sure this lacquer is solvent based. What this means is the 
solvent will soak right through the surface and your print will look 
like it's got blotches of kerosene. On matte print you need at least 
a coat of water based acrylic, then the lacquer or varnish can go on 
top without interacting with the substrate.

--nick

> 
> I'm sure this lacquer is solvent based. What this means is the 
> solvent will soak right through the surface and your print will 
look 
> like it's got blotches of kerosene. On matte print you need at 
least 
> a coat of water based acrylic, then the lacquer or varnish can go 
on 
> top without interacting with the substrate.
> 
> --nick


Thanks, Nick. I think I'll get a couple tested...but not with 
important prints <g>.

Tom O'Connell

I use ClearJet, a solvent based UV product on several kinds of matte media
and have never seen ³blotches².  This after three coats, each 90 degrees off
axis from the previous.  If fact, I believe the company suggests that only
solvent based sprays be used on waterbased ink prints.  J Vee

On 6/9/04 12:32 AM, "nick_h_nugent" <nick_h_nugent@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm sure this lacquer is solvent based. What this means is the
> solvent will soak right through the surface and your print will look
> like it's got blotches of kerosene. On matte print you need at least
> a coat of water based acrylic, then the lacquer or varnish can go on
> top without interacting with the substrate.
> 
> --nick



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Premier Art PrintShield says it's lacquer based. I've never used it
personally though considering it. Anyone using it on matte prints? I
though I remembered some people referring to it on matte. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom OConnell"
<tomoc@y...> wrote:

> > 
> > I'm sure this lacquer is solvent based. What this means is the 
> > solvent will soak right through the surface and your print will 
> look 
> > like it's got blotches of kerosene. On matte print you need at 
> least 
> > a coat of water based acrylic, then the lacquer or varnish can go 
> on 
> > top without interacting with the substrate.
> > 
> > --nick
> 
> 
> Thanks, Nick. I think I'll get a couple tested...but not with 
> important prints <g>.
> 
> Tom O'Connell

The Pemier Art PrintShield data sheet lists a lot of Wilhem ratings
for popular matte papers sprayed with this lacquer based product. In
general the ratings of the sprayed matte prints are about the same as
those framed with non UV glass. Of course that's only one aspect of
how long a print lasts in the real world.

See:
http://www.premierimagingproducts.com/pdf/PremierArtPrintShieldFactSheetVer2.1.pdf

It's available from MIS for $15 a can or in bulk.

Bob Michaels 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Michaels"
<bob@b...> wrote:

> Premier Art PrintShield says it's lacquer based. I've never used it
> personally though considering it. Anyone using it on matte prints? I
> though I remembered some people referring to it on matte. 
> 
> Bob Michaels
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom OConnell"
> <tomoc@y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I'm sure this lacquer is solvent based. What this means is the 
> > > solvent will soak right through the surface and your print will 
> > look 
> > > like it's got blotches of kerosene. On matte print you need at 
> > least 
> > > a coat of water based acrylic, then the lacquer or varnish can go 
> > on 
> > > top without interacting with the substrate.
> > > 
> > > --nick
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks, Nick. I think I'll get a couple tested...but not with 
> > important prints <g>.
> > 
> > Tom O'Connell

I use it on every print I offer for sale.  And, I am only using matt papers.  Can't really see any difference in the image once it has dried, which is pretty quick.
 
Tom Baker

Bob Michaels <bob@...> wrote:
Premier Art PrintShield says it's lacquer based. I've never used it
personally though considering it. Anyone using it on matte prints? I
though I remembered some people referring to it on matte. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom OConnell"
wrote:
> > 
> > I'm sure this lacquer is solvent based. What this means is the 
> > solvent will soak right through the surface and your print will 
> look 
> > like it's got blotches of kerosene. On matte print you need at 
> least 
> > a coat of water based acrylic, then the lacquer or varnish can go 
> on 
> > top without interacting with the substrate.
> > 
> > --nick
> 
> 
> Thanks, Nick. I think I'll get a couple tested...but not with 
> important prints .
> 
> Tom O'Connell




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have been using Lyson Print Guard (same product) on my HPR prints for
framing without glazing.  It looks fine but a measured step wedge will show
a significant shift in density post spraying, including a large drop in
dMax.

> From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 19:29:58 -0700 (PDT)
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Laquer on matte prints?
> 
> I use it on every print I offer for sale.  And, I am only using matt papers.
> Can't really see any difference in the image once it has dried, which is
> pretty quick.
> 
> Tom Baker
> 
> Bob Michaels <bob@...> wrote:
> Premier Art PrintShield says it's lacquer based. I've never used it
> personally though considering it. Anyone using it on matte prints? I
> though I remembered some people referring to it on matte.
> 
> Bob Michaels
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom OConnell"
> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm sure this lacquer is solvent based. What this means is the
>>> solvent will soak right through the surface and your print will
>> look 
>>> like it's got blotches of kerosene. On matte print you need at
>> least 
>>> a coat of water based acrylic, then the lacquer or varnish can go
>> on 
>>> top without interacting with the substrate.
>>> 
>>> --nick
>>

While I have no way to measure it, I have not seen this on the Ultrasmooth and Somerset Velvet that I use.  I have tried the spray half the print trick to visually compare, and see no negative effect.  On the Somerset it seems to slightly increase saturation.  But, I might just be making that up in my head.  I don't see it on the Ultrasmooth, however.  I'll try a step wedge to take another visual look at it.
 
Tom Baker

Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:
I have been using Lyson Print Guard (same product) on my HPR prints for
framing without glazing. It looks fine but a measured step wedge will show
a significant shift in density post spraying, including a large drop in
dMax.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree that it is hard to see the difference but have measured drops in
density of the 100% step, for example, from 1.66 to 1.58.  The nice thing
about spraying the prints is that there is no longer a risk of flaking and
the prints can be directly (gently) brushed to remove dust etc. The downside
is this density shift (others have commented in the past that the dark areas
lighten and the light areas darken).  I am in two minds as to whether to
spray and then linearise the spray steps or not spray at all.  The agreed
Best Practise is to apply polyurethane via a mayer rod but this seems too
much of a mess for me.

From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...>

While I have no way to measure it, I have not seen this on the Ultrasmooth
and Somerset Velvet that I use.  I have tried the spray half the print trick
to visually compare, and see no negative effect.  On the Somerset it seems
to slightly increase saturation.  But, I might just be making that up in my
head.  I don't see it on the Ultrasmooth, however.  I'll try a step wedge to
take another visual look at it.
 
Tom Baker




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BTW I am surprised you use Somerset Velvet.  I tried this paper and stopped
immediately due to its very low dMax capability and mottled blacks.  However
I am talking about the original Somerset made in England.  Perhaps you are
referring to the Epson version which I understand uses the same paper base
but Epson applies there own coating.

From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...>

While I have no way to measure it, I have not seen this on the Ultrasmooth
and Somerset Velvet that I use.  I have tried the spray half the print trick
to visually compare, and see no negative effect.  On the Somerset it seems
to slightly increase saturation.  But, I might just be making that up in my
head.  I don't see it on the Ultrasmooth, however.  I'll try a step wedge to
take another visual look at it.
 
Tom Baker




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yep.  The Somerset Velvet for Epson.  Like any paper, it's not for every image.  Now that I can get it as needed, I am using more Ultrasmooth.  But, a 44" roll costs almost as much as a tank of gas these days.
 
Tom Baker

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes but in the US gas is still extremely cheap....

From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...>

Yep.  The Somerset Velvet for Epson.  Like any paper, it's not for every
image.  Now that I can get it as needed, I am using more Ultrasmooth.  But,
a 44" roll costs almost as much as a tank of gas these days.
 
Tom Baker




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve wrote:

>I have been using Lyson Print Guard (same product) on my HPR prints for
>framing without glazing.  It looks fine but a measured step wedge will show
>a significant shift in density post spraying, including a large drop in
>dMax.


I've seen and measured this with UltraSmooth and PremierArt Print Shield,
which, as you note, appears to be the same as Lyson Print Guard (though the
Premier Imaging people deny they are the same).

Perhaps related to this is the observation by another forum member that the
surface of smooth prints can feel a bit gritty after spraying with
PremierArt Print Shield, at least when used in hot, dry conditions.  After
looking into it, this person concluded that the solvents in the PremierArt
Print Shield were so quick to dry that the coating was starting to solidify
before hitting the print.  Lascaux Fixativ, however, uses solvents that are
less volatile and, thus, may keep its acrylic in liquid form long enough to
more effectively surround the pigment particles and lock them to the
surface.

Today I did a comparison of the two sprays on UltraSmooth.  I sprayed two
test strips of UltraSmooth with 3 coats of the 2 products.  The dmax started
at 1.61.  The test strip sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield had a dmax
drop to 1.52 and 1.51.  The test strip sprayed with Lascaux Fixativ had the
dmax drop to 1.59 and 1.57.

Perhaps related to this is my finding that PremierArt Print Shield is more
effective at reducing the bronzing on glossy papers than is the Lascaux.
With Lascaux I'll have to find a different procedure than my usual 3-4
quick, light sprays.

It appears to me that the PremierArt Print Shield tends to stay on the
surface of the print more, whereas the Lascaux appears to soak in more.  The
Lascaux solvents are, apparently, less volatile -- they evaporate slower.
In addition to the chemist's conclusions in this regard, I simply can smell
the Lascaux on the print longer.

I might add that the drop in dmax does not happen with all matte papers.
UltraSmooth is the paper that I like and use frequently that definitely does
have a tendency to have this happen.  From now on, I might be using Lascaux
on it instead of PremierArt Print Shield.  (The Lascaux is also the Rohm &
Haas B72 formula that is most highly thought of by the conservation
industry.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

    Do you notice any difference in apearance between the print 
sprayed with Lascaux and Print Guard. I've been using Priemier Art 
Print Shield and have not been able to detect its presence after 
spraying. Can you "See" either of the other products, any gloss, Etc..
Also, do you know what the Laquer formula is for either the Print 
Guard or Print Shield.

John H



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Steve wrote:
> 
> >I have been using Lyson Print Guard (same product) on my HPR 
prints for
> >framing without glazing.  It looks fine but a measured step wedge 
will show
> >a significant shift in density post spraying, including a large 
drop in
> >dMax.
> 
> 
> I've seen and measured this with UltraSmooth and PremierArt Print 
Shield,
> which, as you note, appears to be the same as Lyson Print Guard 
(though the
> Premier Imaging people deny they are the same).
> 
> Perhaps related to this is the observation by another forum member 
that the
> surface of smooth prints can feel a bit gritty after spraying with
> PremierArt Print Shield, at least when used in hot, dry 
conditions.  After
> looking into it, this person concluded that the solvents in the 
PremierArt
> Print Shield were so quick to dry that the coating was starting to 
solidify
> before hitting the print.  Lascaux Fixativ, however, uses solvents 
that are
> less volatile and, thus, may keep its acrylic in liquid form long 
enough to
> more effectively surround the pigment particles and lock them to the
> surface.
> 
> Today I did a comparison of the two sprays on UltraSmooth.  I 
sprayed two
> test strips of UltraSmooth with 3 coats of the 2 products.  The 
dmax started
> at 1.61.  The test strip sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield had a 
dmax
> drop to 1.52 and 1.51.  The test strip sprayed with Lascaux Fixativ 
had the
> dmax drop to 1.59 and 1.57.
> 
> Perhaps related to this is my finding that PremierArt Print Shield 
is more
> effective at reducing the bronzing on glossy papers than is the 
Lascaux.
> With Lascaux I'll have to find a different procedure than my usual 
3-4
> quick, light sprays.
> 
> It appears to me that the PremierArt Print Shield tends to stay on 
the
> surface of the print more, whereas the Lascaux appears to soak in 
more.  The
> Lascaux solvents are, apparently, less volatile -- they evaporate 
slower.
> In addition to the chemist's conclusions in this regard, I simply 
can smell
> the Lascaux on the print longer.
> 
> I might add that the drop in dmax does not happen with all matte 
papers.
> UltraSmooth is the paper that I like and use frequently that 
definitely does
> have a tendency to have this happen.  From now on, I might be using 
Lascaux
> on it instead of PremierArt Print Shield.  (The Lascaux is also the 
Rohm &

> Haas B72 formula that is most highly thought of by the conservation
> industry.)
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

John,

>Do you notice any difference in apearance between the print 
>sprayed with Lascaux and Print Guard.

I do see the dmax advantage of Lascaux in side-by-side test strips.  Other
than that they look the same to me.

> I've been using Priemier Art 
>Print Shield and have not been able to detect its presence after 
>spraying. Can you "See" either of the other products, any gloss, Etc.

To me, when I just do 3 light coats, the images look the same as the
unsprayed prints.  The paper white, for example, is unchanged.  On many
matte papers the dmax is also unchanged with light spraying.

>Also, do you know what the Laquer formula is for either the Print 
>Guard or Print Shield.

No, I don't know what they are made of.  The Premier Imaging people call it
a "lacquer" instead of an acrylic, but I often think of the term "lacquer"
as just generic.  Many of the traditional lacquers, such as nitrocellulose
lacquer, yellowed.  Acrylic, on the other hand, has about the best
reputation for not yellowing.  So, when a company tells me the product is a
"lacquer" and not acrylic, this is not really a positive statement.  

On the other hand, the Wilhelm, de facto, stamp of approval for PremierArt
Print Shield does carry some weight with me.  It and Lascaux (B72 formula)
are at the top of my list (PremierArt to reduce bronzing on glossy paper,
and Lascaux for the matte papers).  Grumbacher Tuffilm is just down a notch,
having a nozzle that is not as good, especially for glossy prints; for matte
papers the nozzle is fine. (The Grumbacher fixative is cheap and readily
available, but I have not tested it for dmax decrease on UltraSmooth or
Scrapbook.)  There may be other great clear coats, but if they are unknown
proprietary formulas, they are, I believe, going to need some age testing to
be accepted in the fine art field. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
____________________________



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Steve wrote:
> 
> >I have been using Lyson Print Guard (same product) on my HPR 
prints for
> >framing without glazing.  It looks fine but a measured step wedge 
will show
> >a significant shift in density post spraying, including a large 
drop in
> >dMax.
> 
> 
> I've seen and measured this with UltraSmooth and PremierArt Print 
Shield,
> which, as you note, appears to be the same as Lyson Print Guard 
(though the
> Premier Imaging people deny they are the same).
> 
> Perhaps related to this is the observation by another forum member 
that the
> surface of smooth prints can feel a bit gritty after spraying with
> PremierArt Print Shield, at least when used in hot, dry 
conditions.  After
> looking into it, this person concluded that the solvents in the 
PremierArt
> Print Shield were so quick to dry that the coating was starting to 
solidify
> before hitting the print.  Lascaux Fixativ, however, uses solvents 
that are
> less volatile and, thus, may keep its acrylic in liquid form long 
enough to
> more effectively surround the pigment particles and lock them to the
> surface.
> 
> Today I did a comparison of the two sprays on UltraSmooth.  I 
sprayed two
> test strips of UltraSmooth with 3 coats of the 2 products.  The 
dmax started
> at 1.61.  The test strip sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield had a 
dmax
> drop to 1.52 and 1.51.  The test strip sprayed with Lascaux Fixativ 
had the
> dmax drop to 1.59 and 1.57.
> 
> Perhaps related to this is my finding that PremierArt Print Shield 
is more
> effective at reducing the bronzing on glossy papers than is the 
Lascaux.
> With Lascaux I'll have to find a different procedure than my usual 
3-4
> quick, light sprays.
> 
> It appears to me that the PremierArt Print Shield tends to stay on 
the
> surface of the print more, whereas the Lascaux appears to soak in 
more.  The
> Lascaux solvents are, apparently, less volatile -- they evaporate 
slower.
> In addition to the chemist's conclusions in this regard, I simply 
can smell
> the Lascaux on the print longer.
> 
> I might add that the drop in dmax does not happen with all matte 
papers.
> UltraSmooth is the paper that I like and use frequently that 
definitely does
> have a tendency to have this happen.  From now on, I might be using 
Lascaux
> on it instead of PremierArt Print Shield.  (The Lascaux is also the 
Rohm &

> Haas B72 formula that is most highly thought of by the conservation
> industry.)
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Paul 

Thanks for this.  I have ordered some Lascaux.  Did you find much shift
across the other steps?  Wondering if it is necessary to linearise a strip
post spraying...

Regards

Steve

From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@verizon.net>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:46:15 -0700
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Laquer on matte prints?

Steve wrote:

>I have been using Lyson Print Guard (same product) on my HPR prints for
>framing without glazing.  It looks fine but a measured step wedge will show
>a significant shift in density post spraying, including a large drop in
>dMax.


I've seen and measured this with UltraSmooth and PremierArt Print Shield,
which, as you note, appears to be the same as Lyson Print Guard (though the
Premier Imaging people deny they are the same).

Perhaps related to this is the observation by another forum member that the
surface of smooth prints can feel a bit gritty after spraying with
PremierArt Print Shield, at least when used in hot, dry conditions.  After
looking into it, this person concluded that the solvents in the PremierArt
Print Shield were so quick to dry that the coating was starting to solidify
before hitting the print.  Lascaux Fixativ, however, uses solvents that are
less volatile and, thus, may keep its acrylic in liquid form long enough to
more effectively surround the pigment particles and lock them to the
surface.

Today I did a comparison of the two sprays on UltraSmooth.  I sprayed two
test strips of UltraSmooth with 3 coats of the 2 products.  The dmax started
at 1.61.  The test strip sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield had a dmax
drop to 1.52 and 1.51.  The test strip sprayed with Lascaux Fixativ had the
dmax drop to 1.59 and 1.57.

Perhaps related to this is my finding that PremierArt Print Shield is more
effective at reducing the bronzing on glossy papers than is the Lascaux.
With Lascaux I'll have to find a different procedure than my usual 3-4
quick, light sprays.

It appears to me that the PremierArt Print Shield tends to stay on the
surface of the print more, whereas the Lascaux appears to soak in more.  The
Lascaux solvents are, apparently, less volatile -- they evaporate slower.
In addition to the chemist's conclusions in this regard, I simply can smell
the Lascaux on the print longer.

I might add that the drop in dmax does not happen with all matte papers.
UltraSmooth is the paper that I like and use frequently that definitely does
have a tendency to have this happen.  From now on, I might be using Lascaux
on it instead of PremierArt Print Shield.  (The Lascaux is also the Rohm &
Haas B72 formula that is most highly thought of by the conservation
industry.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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