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Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof at GG 2.2 on glossy paper

Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof at GG 2.2 on glossy paper

2004-06-15 by Johnny Eades

I received several replies to the question as to what many of you 
are using your monitor set to---GG 1.8 or GG 2.2; and I may need to 
clarify my question as first asked. What do many of you have your 
monitor gamma set to?

I understand all the replies that referred to the color management 
issues and effect of Gamma on display characteristics. I don't have 
a problem with Gamma myself, I was just asking what many of you have 
your monitor set to. I realize the glossy paper has a higher D-max 
and is therefore going to print the lower tones darker than Matte 
paper is ,and I make adjustments to the proof to get the 
satisfactory resulting print on glossy. If the shadows are to low, I 
raise them to gain printable details relative to the visualized 
image.Proofing is simply previewing how the finished print should 
look. My criteria is enough body in the shadows to support the 
impression there is something visible there.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny Eades

Re: [Digital BW] Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof at GG 2.2 on glossy paper

2004-06-15 by Steve Kale

But John I think perhaps you are missing the point.  Pick a gamma setting,
say 2.2.  Calibrate your profile with this gamma setting.  Select a PS
workspace, say Gray Gamme 2.2 and away you go.  The issue only appears when
you want to soft proof.  In a colour environment you would set up a soft
proof via View/Proof Setup and use the colour profile of the printer/media
combination you are using.  Since B&W printing mostly uses a Same as Source
method of printing rather than the selection of the printer/media ICC
profile and colorsyncing the workflow, accurate soft proofing has alluded
B&W printing for some time.  It was Tyler Boley I believe who devised a
proofing system using a custom dot gain to preview the image.  Carl
Schofield came upon an ICC based approach that I highlighted to you earlier.
With an accurate method of soft proofing such as the system used by Carl the
selection of gamma is irrelevant.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Johnny Eades" <jeades1@...>

I received several replies to the question as to what many of you
are using your monitor set to---GG 1.8 or GG 2.2; and I may need to
clarify my question as first asked. What do many of you have your
monitor gamma set to?

I understand all the replies that referred to the color management
issues and effect of Gamma on display characteristics. I don't have
a problem with Gamma myself, I was just asking what many of you have
your monitor set to. I realize the glossy paper has a higher D-max
and is therefore going to print the lower tones darker than Matte
paper is ,and I make adjustments to the proof to get the
satisfactory resulting print on glossy. If the shadows are to low, I
raise them to gain printable details relative to the visualized
image.Proofing is simply previewing how the finished print should
look. My criteria is enough body in the shadows to support the
impression there is something visible there.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny Eades




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof at GG 2.2 on glossy paper

2004-06-15 by Johnny Eades

Back again folks,

I know you are getting tired of me asking the same question, but I 
haven't gotten any answers to it yet. WHAT IS YOUR MONITOR 
CALIBRATED OR SET TO--GG 1.8 OR GG 2.2?

Still your friend in Photography,

Johnny Eades

PS I'll keep asking till someone answers my simple question.




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> But John I think perhaps you are missing the point.  Pick a gamma 
setting,
> say 2.2.  Calibrate your profile with this gamma setting.  Select 
a PS
> workspace, say Gray Gamme 2.2 and away you go.  The issue only 
appears when
> you want to soft proof.  In a colour environment you would set up 
a soft
> proof via View/Proof Setup and use the colour profile of the 
printer/media
> combination you are using.  Since B&W printing mostly uses a Same 
as Source
> method of printing rather than the selection of the printer/media 
ICC
> profile and colorsyncing the workflow, accurate soft proofing has 
alluded
> B&W printing for some time.  It was Tyler Boley I believe who 
devised a
> proofing system using a custom dot gain to preview the image.  Carl
> Schofield came upon an ICC based approach that I highlighted to 
you earlier.
> With an accurate method of soft proofing such as the system used 
by Carl the
> selection of gamma is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> From: "Johnny Eades" <jeades1@s...>
> 
> I received several replies to the question as to what many of you
> are using your monitor set to---GG 1.8 or GG 2.2; and I may need to
> clarify my question as first asked. What do many of you have your
> monitor gamma set to?
> 
> I understand all the replies that referred to the color management
> issues and effect of Gamma on display characteristics. I don't have
> a problem with Gamma myself, I was just asking what many of you 
have
> your monitor set to. I realize the glossy paper has a higher D-max
> and is therefore going to print the lower tones darker than Matte
> paper is ,and I make adjustments to the proof to get the
> satisfactory resulting print on glossy. If the shadows are to low, 
I
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> raise them to gain printable details relative to the visualized
> image.Proofing is simply previewing how the finished print should
> look. My criteria is enough body in the shadows to support the
> impression there is something visible there.
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny Eades
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof at GG 2.2 on glossy paper

2004-06-15 by Steve Kale

2.2 but then I could just as easily choose 1.8 in the calibration with no
impact as PS¹s conversion engine would manage the translation from my
monitor space to my PS gray workspace (I use Gray Gamma 2.2).  Maybe this
will help:

http://www.computer-darkroom.com/colorsync-display/colorsync_2.htm
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Johnny Eades" <jeades1@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:47:26 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof at GG 2.2
on glossy paper

Back again folks,

I know you are getting tired of me asking the same question, but I
haven't gotten any answers to it yet. WHAT IS YOUR MONITOR
CALIBRATED OR SET TO--GG 1.8 OR GG 2.2?

Still your friend in Photography,

Johnny Eades

PS I'll keep asking till someone answers my simple question.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof at GG 2.2 on glossy paper

2004-06-15 by Johnny Eades

Thank you,

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny Eades




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <


stevekale@b...> wrote:
> 2.2 but then I could just as easily choose 1.8 in the calibration 
with no
> impact as PS¹s conversion engine would manage the translation from 
my
> monitor space to my PS gray workspace (I use Gray Gamma 2.2).  
Maybe this
> will help:
> 
> http://www.computer-darkroom.com/colorsync-display/colorsync_2.htm
> 
> 
> From: "Johnny Eades" <jeades1@s...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:47:26 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof 
at GG 2.2
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> on glossy paper
> 
> Back again folks,
> 
> I know you are getting tired of me asking the same question, but I
> haven't gotten any answers to it yet. WHAT IS YOUR MONITOR
> CALIBRATED OR SET TO--GG 1.8 OR GG 2.2?
> 
> Still your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny Eades
> 
> PS I'll keep asking till someone answers my simple question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof at GG 2.2 on glossy paper

2004-06-15 by Steve Kale

See my original response to your post - I noted my gamma settings there in =
the first place.  
Pg 2 of the link I provided you has a discussion of gamma setting with resp=
ect to monitor 
calibration.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@=
b...> 
wrote:
> 2.2 but then I could just as easily choose 1.8 in the calibration with no=

> impact as PS¹s conversion engine would manage the translation from my
> monitor space to my PS gray workspace (I use Gray Gamma 2.2).  Maybe this=

> will help:
> 
> http://www.computer-darkroom.com/colorsync-display/colorsync_2.htm
> 
> 
> From: "Johnny Eades" <jeades1@s...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:47:26 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof at GG 2.=
2
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> on glossy paper
> 
> Back again folks,
> 
> I know you are getting tired of me asking the same question, but I
> haven't gotten any answers to it yet. WHAT IS YOUR MONITOR
> CALIBRATED OR SET TO--GG 1.8 OR GG 2.2?
> 
> Still your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny Eades
> 
> PS I'll keep asking till someone answers my simple question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof at GG 2.2 on glossy pape

2004-06-15 by Bob Michaels

My monitor is calibrated (really just set) to GG 2.2, the windows
default. I get WYSIWYG with UT2 straight out of the box. For BO, I
have to set the printer profile as 10% DG. That's with an LCD. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades"
<jeades1@s...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Back again folks,
> 
> I know you are getting tired of me asking the same question, but I 
> haven't gotten any answers to it yet. WHAT IS YOUR MONITOR 
> CALIBRATED OR SET TO--GG 1.8 OR GG 2.2?
> 
> Still your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny Eades
> 
> PS I'll keep asking till someone answers my simple question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> > But John I think perhaps you are missing the point.  Pick a gamma 
> setting,
> > say 2.2.  Calibrate your profile with this gamma setting.  Select 
> a PS
> > workspace, say Gray Gamme 2.2 and away you go.  The issue only 
> appears when
> > you want to soft proof.  In a colour environment you would set up 
> a soft
> > proof via View/Proof Setup and use the colour profile of the 
> printer/media
> > combination you are using.  Since B&W printing mostly uses a Same 
> as Source
> > method of printing rather than the selection of the printer/media 
> ICC
> > profile and colorsyncing the workflow, accurate soft proofing has 
> alluded
> > B&W printing for some time.  It was Tyler Boley I believe who 
> devised a
> > proofing system using a custom dot gain to preview the image.  Carl
> > Schofield came upon an ICC based approach that I highlighted to 
> you earlier.
> > With an accurate method of soft proofing such as the system used 
> by Carl the
> > selection of gamma is irrelevant.
> > 
> > 
> > From: "Johnny Eades" <jeades1@s...>
> > 
> > I received several replies to the question as to what many of you
> > are using your monitor set to---GG 1.8 or GG 2.2; and I may need to
> > clarify my question as first asked. What do many of you have your
> > monitor gamma set to?
> > 
> > I understand all the replies that referred to the color management
> > issues and effect of Gamma on display characteristics. I don't have
> > a problem with Gamma myself, I was just asking what many of you 
> have
> > your monitor set to. I realize the glossy paper has a higher D-max
> > and is therefore going to print the lower tones darker than Matte
> > paper is ,and I make adjustments to the proof to get the
> > satisfactory resulting print on glossy. If the shadows are to low, 
> I
> > raise them to gain printable details relative to the visualized
> > image.Proofing is simply previewing how the finished print should
> > look. My criteria is enough body in the shadows to support the
> > impression there is something visible there.
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny Eades
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof at GG 2.2 on glossy paper

2004-06-15 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Johnny Eades [mailto:jeades1@...]
>
> I know you are getting tired of me asking the same question, but I
> haven't gotten any answers to it yet. WHAT IS YOUR MONITOR
> CALIBRATED OR SET TO--GG 1.8 OR GG 2.2?

2.2. That's because Windows Internet Explorer isn't color managed, and most
web images are in sRGB, which is close to 2.2.

For editing, I prefer 2.2, because a midscale value is closer to what one
would call "medium". I don't think 1.8 has enough curvature.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof at GG 2.2 on glossy paper

2004-06-16 by Tom Baker

2.2, but it doesn't make any difference.
 
Tom Baker

Johnny Eades <jeades1@...> wrote:
Back again folks,

I know you are getting tired of me asking the same question, but I 
haven't gotten any answers to it yet. WHAT IS YOUR MONITOR 
CALIBRATED OR SET TO--GG 1.8 OR GG 2.2?

Still your friend in Photography,

Johnny Eades

PS I'll keep asking till someone answers my simple question.




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
wrote:
> But John I think perhaps you are missing the point. Pick a gamma 
setting,
> say 2.2. Calibrate your profile with this gamma setting. Select 
a PS
> workspace, say Gray Gamme 2.2 and away you go. The issue only 
appears when
> you want to soft proof. In a colour environment you would set up 
a soft
> proof via View/Proof Setup and use the colour profile of the 
printer/media
> combination you are using. Since B&W printing mostly uses a Same 
as Source
> method of printing rather than the selection of the printer/media 
ICC
> profile and colorsyncing the workflow, accurate soft proofing has 
alluded
> B&W printing for some time. It was Tyler Boley I believe who 
devised a
> proofing system using a custom dot gain to preview the image. Carl
> Schofield came upon an ICC based approach that I highlighted to 
you earlier.
> With an accurate method of soft proofing such as the system used 
by Carl the
> selection of gamma is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> From: "Johnny Eades" 
> 
> I received several replies to the question as to what many of you
> are using your monitor set to---GG 1.8 or GG 2.2; and I may need to
> clarify my question as first asked. What do many of you have your
> monitor gamma set to?
> 
> I understand all the replies that referred to the color management
> issues and effect of Gamma on display characteristics. I don't have
> a problem with Gamma myself, I was just asking what many of you 
have
> your monitor set to. I realize the glossy paper has a higher D-max
> and is therefore going to print the lower tones darker than Matte
> paper is ,and I make adjustments to the proof to get the
> satisfactory resulting print on glossy. If the shadows are to low, 
I
> raise them to gain printable details relative to the visualized
> image.Proofing is simply previewing how the finished print should
> look. My criteria is enough body in the shadows to support the
> impression there is something visible there.
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny Eades
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Calibrated monitor at GG 1.8 and proof at GG 2.2 on glossy paper

2004-06-16 by Roger Howard

It makes a difference if you're not color managed, but yes assuming 
you're working in a color managed environment (Photoshop), have 
profiled your monitor (or use a stock profile with the right gamma 
value at least), then it doesn't strictly matter, though I would prefer 
2.2 (or the native gamma of my display, especially when working on 
LCD).

It's most important to know what you are looking at, and then 
understand the output conditions - whether you have to convert to sRGB 
for non-color managed apps/people, or whether your output will respect 
profiles (and whether you're handling profiles properly on your end).

Johnny, stick with 2.2 until you have a good reason to change.

-R
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jun 15, 2004, at 6:57 PM, Tom Baker wrote:

> 2.2, but it doesn't make any difference.
>
> Tom Baker
>
> Johnny Eades <jeades1@...> wrote:
> Back again folks,
>
> I know you are getting tired of me asking the same question, but I
> haven't gotten any answers to it yet. WHAT IS YOUR MONITOR
> CALIBRATED OR SET TO--GG 1.8 OR GG 2.2?
>
> Still your friend in Photography,
>
> Johnny Eades
>
> PS I'll keep asking till someone answers my simple question.
>
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> wrote:
>> But John I think perhaps you are missing the point. Pick a gamma
> setting,
>> say 2.2. Calibrate your profile with this gamma setting. Select
> a PS
>> workspace, say Gray Gamme 2.2 and away you go. The issue only
> appears when
>> you want to soft proof. In a colour environment you would set up
> a soft
>> proof via View/Proof Setup and use the colour profile of the
> printer/media
>> combination you are using. Since B&W printing mostly uses a Same
> as Source
>> method of printing rather than the selection of the printer/media
> ICC
>> profile and colorsyncing the workflow, accurate soft proofing has
> alluded
>> B&W printing for some time. It was Tyler Boley I believe who
> devised a
>> proofing system using a custom dot gain to preview the image. Carl
>> Schofield came upon an ICC based approach that I highlighted to
> you earlier.
>> With an accurate method of soft proofing such as the system used
> by Carl the
>> selection of gamma is irrelevant.
>>
>>
>> From: "Johnny Eades"
>>
>> I received several replies to the question as to what many of you
>> are using your monitor set to---GG 1.8 or GG 2.2; and I may need to
>> clarify my question as first asked. What do many of you have your
>> monitor gamma set to?
>>
>> I understand all the replies that referred to the color management
>> issues and effect of Gamma on display characteristics. I don't have
>> a problem with Gamma myself, I was just asking what many of you
> have
>> your monitor set to. I realize the glossy paper has a higher D-max
>> and is therefore going to print the lower tones darker than Matte
>> paper is ,and I make adjustments to the proof to get the
>> satisfactory resulting print on glossy. If the shadows are to low,
> I
>> raise them to gain printable details relative to the visualized
>> image.Proofing is simply previewing how the finished print should
>> look. My criteria is enough body in the shadows to support the
>> impression there is something visible there.
>>
>> Your friend in Photography,
>>
>> Johnny Eades
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
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>
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