Digital BW, The Print

sl91911 wrote:
Don,
 
  Can you please tell us precisely how you run the C82 to get these
results.
1. What inks do you put in each position
2. The precise names of the non-Epson papers you use
3. What you do to get your screen to match the print using, I 
presume,
Photoshop CS
4. What if any settings you change when you change papers
 
In all the commotion you missed one thing, I don't have the printer 
yet.  I posted what someone who uses it had said.  But I have saved 
a few topical posts over the past few months.  Here is what I 
saved.  [I will see if I can put this post in the files section of 
this group, then it will be easy to steer someone to it.]

----
EZ Black & White by Paul Roark.

Just follow this link. Its about simple b&w printing. Nothing 
complicated. Plain and simple. And cheap too!

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/utez.html

Cheers,
Andre

[Hint: Follow the other links from that page for more info]
----

>I have an Espon C82 ... I was 
>thinking of trying it for B&W prints using the EZ inks throug MIS. 
>...
>Is there someplace that describes or shows the differance in the 
prints 
>you can achieve by using various Nuetral and Warm combinations?

See the "Tones-Preview" page and file I have for the UT7 inkset.  
It's at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Tones-Preview.htm  

The above URL has a downloadable .psd file that has layers on it 
that you
can drag to an RGB version of a B&W file to preview the tones.  The 
C82 EZ
inks are "neutral/selenium" (may be just a bit cooler than dead 
neutral on
EEM) and carbon tones.  They are the same tones that the UT7 inkset 
prints
with curves that are similarly labeled.  So, the preview file at the 
above
URL will give you an idea of what you'll be able to print with the 
C82.

> Is there a way to achieve prints more on the cool side as well?

Moab Entrada Bright White paper or others that print cool will be 
quite cold
with the "neutral" inks.

(I have not tried any canvas type papers in the printer.)
 
>I believe I've read that the c84 produces slighly better 
results, ...

These machines under print the black ink with color position inks -- 
at
least with most paper type settings in the driver.  This lowers the 
dmax
somewhat.  The C84 does not underprint the black ink with "Plain 
paper"
selected.  I just don't know if that is also true for the C82.  
Other than
this, I don't think the C84 is better.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
----

[disclaimer from Paul]
That file is really aimed at the UT7 inkset.  I think if you have 2 
neutral
carts installed and a warm one in the Y spot, you'll have tones that 
are a
bit less warm than the the medium warm tone on the Preview file.  A 
warm
cart in the M spot is, I believe, slightly warmer than the medium 
warm
preview.  If all the spots are warm ink, you'll have the carbon tone.

You have a lot of flexibility with the ink positions.  Also, 
different
papers produce slightly different degrees of warmth or coolness.  The
Preview file was matched to scans of Epson Enhanced Matte ("EEM").

----

The Epson C84 ink appears to be compatible with the EZ B&W inks.  
I've
swapped carts with no flushing and had no significant clogs.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

----

I just put tape over the outlets of half used carts.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

----

K2,

You are correct.  The EZ inks are the same in all the color positions
(unless you choose to warm it up a bit by putting a warm cart in Y 
for some
warmth, M or C for more warmth).  The chips are different for the C, 
M, & Y
positions.  That is the only difference.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

----

[by now you should be getting an idea of who is the expert on this 
combo]

Randy,

>So it sounds like can have a set of both carts and progressively 
warm 
>your image by how many warm carts you put in the color positions; 
the 
>black being always the same.

Correct.

> Since I am considering a purchase of 
>the C-84, does it matter which order your progress through for more 
>warmth, i.e. Y,C,M; or do all of the ink positions put the same 
>amount of ink in the same places and therefore wouldn't matter 
which 
>order?

Yellow puts less ink in the midtones and highlights than.  So, if 
you find
"neutral" just a bit too cool, a warm ink in the yellow spot would 
be the
first level (least dramatic) step in warming the image.  Many people 
like a
print that is just a hair warmer than the straight "neutral."  As 
such, I
felt that many would like the color of the print if a warm cart was 
used in
this way.

>Is there some place that discribes this procedure in detail? 
Doesn't 
>sound like it is much more complicated than knowing which positions 
>to progress through and some experimentation.

I'm not sure if MIS has it on their pages or not.  

>Finally, is there a way to go colder than the neutral positions 
other 
>than using a "colder" paper, i.e. is there a colder ink we could 
>progress through to get varying levels of cold, as with the warm 
>carts?  Maybe an ink from one of the other printers or create your 
>own?

The paper (like Moab Entrada Bright White or Hawk Mountain Condor) 
is the
easiest way to go colder.  I have not mixed a specific ink for 
colder.  I'll
have to give it more thought to see if there is an easy way to mix a 
new ink
-- but probably not.  With a cold toner from another inkset you 
could do it
with curves, but most don't want to mess with making such.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

----

Thanks to the comments of several people in this group
I purchased an Epson C84 and the MIS EZ BW inkset (the
neutral set with the ebony black) and am pretty impressed 
with the results.

Using the "stepwedge" images provided by Daniel Staver
(thanks) and the "Migrant Mother" image referenced by 
someone else I printed images using the Epson cartridges 
in both the color and black only modes and compared them
to the images printed using the MIS EZ inkset.

My opinion is that as far as smoothness of tones, the EZ
inkset places between the Epson BO and the
the Epson color print.  With the BO print you can see
the dots in the mid tones where you can't with the
color print.  With the EZ inkset you can just barely
see the dots in some places when looking very closely.  

Colorwise, the EZ neutral inkset is quite consistent 
and seems pretty neutral.  The Epson BO print is somewhat
warmer whereas the Epson color ink print is a bit cooler
but inconsistent with the darker tones having a magenta
cast and the lighter tones having a green cast. 

Overall, I am pleased with the prints using the
EZ inkset especially considering the price ($120 for the
printer and ink) and that you don't have to do anything
but print the image, no curves no nothing.  You can't make
it much easier.

So far I have only printed on Epson matte paper, so I don't
know how it looks on glossy paper, but they suggest a 
different black for the glossy paper.
 
[by Derry Bryson]

----

The C84/EZ prints well on glossy or semi-gloss using
the supplied Epson black, but the inks do bronze; so
you must spray or fix the image unless you like the
bronze look.  

Don [Don Hill]

----

The most archival paper with this ink is the Epson PremierArt Matte 
Scrapbook paper.  
You might want to practice and test print on Epson Heavyweight Matte.
EEM= Epson Enhanced Matte, which I believe is "in-between" the other 
two.

[Don M's notes]

----

[Paul says use "Plain Paper" settings in the driver:]
The C84 seems to print at a higher contrast than the C82.  The C82 
output
matches my CRT better, but the C84, with the driver contrast slider 
pulled
down a bit to open up the shadows matches the LCD displays I have 
better.

The C82 under-prints the black with color ink.  So does the C84 most 
of the
time.  This lowers dmax.  On EEM and PhotoRag it's still OK, but on 
some
other papers it's marginal.  The C84 on Plain Paper setting does not
under-print the blacks.  As such, the C84 with Plain Paper setting 
gets as
good a dmax as the more expensive printers.  I have not been able to 
test a
C82 to see if that is also the case with that printer.  If someone 
out there
can just print and compare some 100% black patches with EEM and then 
Plain
Paper settings on EEM, we might be able to tell.

(I don't know about ink usage, I'd assume it is the same.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

----

[a testimonial by Matthew Born]

I picked up a C82 when Paul first made the EZ ink set. My plan then 
was to
use it for the occasional glossy print using the photo K ink. I'd 
been using
UT in my 1280 for matte prints, my primary need, for a while. Paul 
then
reported he'd gotten nice prints in the C82 using the EZ color inks 
along
with the original Epson 'durabrite' black ink. These prints would be 
less
archival, of course (vs. the full EZ set), but I had no intention of 
selling
prints off this machine, so I was intrigued. (And in truth the 
durabrite
inks should be a big step up from regular dyes anyway -- I'd expect 
these
prints to last a while under proper circumstances.) I figured it 
wouldn't
cost anything to try this combo and -- if it worked -- I'd have a 
nifty
little printer that could print on both glossy and matte. (Of 
course, this
has all been superceded by UT2 and Paul's curves which permit 
printing on
both surfaces with the Eboni black anyway...thus, my C82 is almost 
never
used anymore). However, I gotta say -- that combination in the C82 
produces
mind-bogglingly good prints. To think Epson claimed the 2200 would 
make B&W
prints out of the box...the C82 with that ink combination kicks it 
to the
curb, calls it names, and pours hot coffee over its head. In fact, I 
can
only just barely see the difference between it and the 1280, at 
least with
the durabrite K in there. All for about $125, including the EZ ink 
purchase.
And with zero experimentation on my part.

I've thought about trying the media setting changes to see if I can 
detect
any dmax difference on the C82 (re: under printing w/color) but have 
not
done so. I'll try it today. Of course, I am still using the 
durabrite K in
there, so I dunno how my results are skewed anyway. If I recall the
conversations back then correctly, I'm getting a little better dmax 
from the
durabrite black as it is.

As for other papers, the only things I've run through it are EEM, 
photo rag,
Epson Premium semigloss, and Ilford pearl. All have fed and printed
perfectly. And even though it sits literally for two or three weeks 
without
use it never clogs.

IMHO, this should absolutely be the break-in way to digital B&W for 
almost
everyone. For lots and lots of people they'll never need anything 
more. It's
painfully easy and the results are amazing -- no qualifications, 
either --
just plain first-rate.

And I must once again thank Paul Roark for his tireless work and 
astonishing
generosity. The joy of photography has returned for me because the 
digital
workflow actually works now...I shoot film, process it, scan it, and 
print
using UT inks. Step four had been the obstacle for a long time. No 
longer is
A&I siphoning off my son's college fund...

Matthew Born
 ----

Any more questions, let's hear 'em!  I'll put this together as a 
good starting point FAQ.
Assembled by Don M, "I know nothing about the C84"  :)

Different Don here, but I think I can help.  I had
been using the C84 with MIS EZ Neutral inkset and my
prints exactly matched my screen.

> sl91911 wrote:
> Don,
>  
>   Can you please tell us precisely how you run the
> C82 to get these
> results.

Unfortuately, my experience is with the C84 which is a
bit different, but you can extrapolate the details.

> 1. What inks do you put in each position

MIS EZ BW Neutral - For the black position I utilized
the Epson Durabrite Black.

> 2. The precise names of the non-Epson papers you use

I only use Epson Heavyweight Matte, but tried a few
prints on Epson's Durabrite paper that was included
with the printer.

> 3. What you do to get your screen to match the print
> using, I 
> presume,
> Photoshop CS

I am using a 12" G4 Apple Powerbook with Photoshop 7. 
The printer driver is a bit different than a PC, but
it should get you started.

First, I calibrated the monitor with a Monaco Optix,
which is much more convenient and accurate than
calibrating by eye.

My greyscale color space is "dot gain 20%" and in
print with preview, I utilize "same as source."  When
opening an image, I assign the working space of DG20.

I use the common step wedge as my reference print,
however the width is reduced to 3 inches so I can fit
more on a page.  I print with the setting of Photo
Paper (instead of heavyweight matte) in the driver and
all of the sliders set to 0.  The resolution is set to
"best photo."  Essentially, you want the printer to
print at the highest quality.

I make a series of prints, each time reducing the
contrast slider by 1 - this affects the lower values. 
I ended up with a final value of -9 before the shadows
began to block up.  Keeping the contrast at -9, I then
used the sliders to change the brightness setting
(which affects the highlights) by adding 1 to each
sucessive print. I ended up with a setting of +2.

All printers are a bit different, so your results will
probably not match my results.  But this will get you
started.

You need to allow the prints to dry, but with the
above printer settings, +2 brightness/-9 contrast, the
prints match my calibrated monitor perfectly.  With
the Neutral MIS inks, the onscreen color is fairly
accurate as well.  

> 4. What if any settings you change when you change
> papers

If I was to use another paper, I would repeat the
above process and save a custom printer setting as
that papers name.  This process is surprisingly quick,
and can be done without a large amount of supplies.

Hope this helps,
Don



	
		
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Don,
  Thanks for the detailed reply. I also have a C84 available, am also
calibrated with MOnaco, and have just a couple more questions.
Do you feel your results blow away the 2200 as the "other Don" implied ?
Why are you using the Epson black instead of the MIS ?
If you used MIS black, which would you use ?
Have you experienced head clogging ?

                  Stuart



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "D. Hill"
<hill14701@y...> wrote:

> Different Don here, but I think I can help.  I had
> been using the C84 with MIS EZ Neutral inkset and my
> prints exactly matched my screen.
> 
> > sl91911 wrote:
> > Don,
> >  
> >   Can you please tell us precisely how you run the
> > C82 to get these
> > results.
> 
> Unfortuately, my experience is with the C84 which is a
> bit different, but you can extrapolate the details.
> 
> > 1. What inks do you put in each position
> 
> MIS EZ BW Neutral - For the black position I utilized
> the Epson Durabrite Black.
> 
> > 2. The precise names of the non-Epson papers you use
> 
> I only use Epson Heavyweight Matte, but tried a few
> prints on Epson's Durabrite paper that was included
> with the printer.
> 
> > 3. What you do to get your screen to match the print
> > using, I 
> > presume,
> > Photoshop CS
> 
> I am using a 12" G4 Apple Powerbook with Photoshop 7. 
> The printer driver is a bit different than a PC, but
> it should get you started.
> 
> First, I calibrated the monitor with a Monaco Optix,
> which is much more convenient and accurate than
> calibrating by eye.
> 
> My greyscale color space is "dot gain 20%" and in
> print with preview, I utilize "same as source."  When
> opening an image, I assign the working space of DG20.
> 
> I use the common step wedge as my reference print,
> however the width is reduced to 3 inches so I can fit
> more on a page.  I print with the setting of Photo
> Paper (instead of heavyweight matte) in the driver and
> all of the sliders set to 0.  The resolution is set to
> "best photo."  Essentially, you want the printer to
> print at the highest quality.
> 
> I make a series of prints, each time reducing the
> contrast slider by 1 - this affects the lower values. 
> I ended up with a final value of -9 before the shadows
> began to block up.  Keeping the contrast at -9, I then
> used the sliders to change the brightness setting
> (which affects the highlights) by adding 1 to each
> sucessive print. I ended up with a setting of +2.
> 
> All printers are a bit different, so your results will
> probably not match my results.  But this will get you
> started.
> 
> You need to allow the prints to dry, but with the
> above printer settings, +2 brightness/-9 contrast, the
> prints match my calibrated monitor perfectly.  With
> the Neutral MIS inks, the onscreen color is fairly
> accurate as well.  
> 
> > 4. What if any settings you change when you change
> > papers
> 
> If I was to use another paper, I would repeat the
> above process and save a custom printer setting as
> that papers name.  This process is surprisingly quick,
> and can be done without a large amount of supplies.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Don
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 		
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com/

Stuart,

> Don,
> Thanks for the detailed reply. I also have a C84
> available, am also
> calibrated with MOnaco, and have just a couple more
> questions.
> Do you feel your results blow away the 2200 as the
> "other Don" implied ?

I can't really answer that, as I do not have access to
a 2200, but I did own a 1280 using the UT2 inks.  

Blow away, no.  This being said because the highlights
are visibly dotty from the C84.  I imagine the output
would be similar to that of a 2200 running imageprint.
 I was extremely impressed with the C84's output, and
it is worth the $40 to try it if you own a C82/84. 
The only reason I sold it was because I found a mint
860 to replace it.

> Why are you using the Epson black instead of the
MIS?

I didn't feel like removing it from the printer, and
wanted to see the output with it installed.  The
durabrite inks have an approximate 70 year archival
rating, so it really doesn't hurt to keep it
installed.  That and it is glossy compatible - but the
CMY positions still need to be sprayed to keep from
bronzing.  However, I usually print on matte papers
and prefer using Eboni to the epson inks.

> If you used MIS black, which would you use ?

Eboni - currently it is the best option for black inks
available.

> Have you experienced head clogging ?
> 
>                   Stuart

I never had clogs with the MIS inks, in any epson
printer and the C84 was no exception.  If anything it
was better because it is a pigment printer.  So far
the list is pretty long, but I've used 3-860's,
2-1160's, 750, 875dc, 1280, and the C84.  The only one
I've had clog issues with was the 1160, and that was
unrelated to MIS.

Wow, I really burn through printers...

Don




	
		
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