Digital BW, The Print

Hi all,
I prefer the more traditional look of glossy or pearl papers. Most of 
the talk here seems to be about matte styles. What do those of you 
actually using the UTEZ/C84 combo for glossy/semigloss prefer? My 
ideals would be archival enough to sell prints without a disclaimer, 
little or no bronzing and a price that's not as outrageous as some of 
the matte papers.
TIA,
Doug

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Doug I.
<puzzolente@s...> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I prefer the more traditional look of glossy or pearl papers. Most of 
> the talk here seems to be about matte styles. What do those of you 
> actually using the UTEZ/C84 combo for glossy/semigloss prefer? My 
> ideals would be archival enough to sell prints without a disclaimer, 
> little or no bronzing and a price that's not as outrageous as some of 
> the matte papers.
> TIA,
> Doug

Hi Doug, I am getting beautiful UTEZ natural prints on my C84 with the
regular cheapo Epson Glossy Photo Paper  SO 41141.  However, I am a
little worried about the archival properties here and will be trying
the Ilford Gallerie Smooth Glossy and Pearl papers soon.  They are
fairly inexpensive and claim a 30 year life.  I'll report back on how
that works.

Ol' Don in Broken Arrow

Doug,

>I prefer the more traditional look of glossy or pearl papers. Most of 
>the talk here seems to be about matte styles. What do those of you 
>actually using the UTEZ/C84 combo for glossy/semigloss prefer? My 
>ideals would be archival enough to sell prints without a disclaimer, 
>little or no bronzing and a price that's not as outrageous as some of 
>the matte papers.

I suspect the only glossy paper line that is "archival" (and I question the
archival quality of any plastic, RC paper) is Epson's "Premium" line
(Wilhelm 200 year+ storage life).  My favorite is the Epson Premium
Semigloss.  However, I think it needs a spray with PremierArt Print Shield
to control bronzing and protect the surface.

I like the looks of a sprayed Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl even better --
great dmax.  However, it is a 30 year paper, probably due to its acidity.  A
spray on the back with Wei T'o will make it "acid free," but I'm not sure
how long it will stay that way.

The only readily available paper I know of that is artifact free and does
not need a spray to protect it is Epson Glossy Photo Paper.  It is thinner
than I'd like and not archival.  It too can be sprayed on the back and will
then test as "acid free" -- for a while.  However, my tests show that within
a few months the lignin in the paper will have already overwhelmed the
buffer if the spray was just a single light one.  I don't know how much Wei
T'o would be needed to keep the paper acid free for a reasonable time.

Epson sells a roll paper -- Glossy Paper Heavyweight -- that has better
paper and is made for long term display and storage.  See
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/ProductMediaSpec.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&i
nfoType=Overview&oid=-8813&category=Paper+%26+Media  (cut and paste the
URL).  It is said to be "non-yellowing" and have a "good" archival keeping
quality (same as the Premium line).  It appears to have the same coating as
the Epson Glossy Photo paper (not one of the micro-porous, troublesome
ones).  So, it is artifact free.  It tests out as having little if any
buffering in the paper back, but a light Wei T'o spray kept it acid free for
as long as I've been looking at it.  So, the lignin content of the paper
must be very low.  Given Epson's rating, no spray is probably needed.
However, if someone like me takes an acid test pen to it, they'll doubt the
archival keeping qualities of the unsprayed paper.  Fighting the curl of a
rolled paper is a hassle.  My 20 x 24" traditional print drier seems to do a
reasonable job.  (Personally, I'd rather just spray a Premium Semigloss.)

With the non-artifact, non-microporous coatings like the Epson Glossy Photo
paper, the dmax is a bit less than the newer coatings, I presume because the
particles are more embedded in the surface (the same reason the artifacts
are gone).  These papers can take a huge ink load.  With the 2200 I up the
ink load to the max (+20%), and this gives the papers as good or better dmax
than the Premium line.  With the C84, however, you can't do that.  I'm not
sure what paper setting will work best, but I'd guess you'll want to use the
"Plain paper" one to stop the under-printing of the black ink with the
"color" inks.  Some experiments may be needed.

Good luck, let us know what you come up with.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks to Don--and to Paul once again for the detailed info. This gives  
me a good starting point. Main question was would I be able to use this  
for some portrait work without getting stability complaints after a  
couple years. I'm looking at this system as an inexpensive way to stick  
a toe in the water before making a bigger investment down the  
road...but if I can get saleable work out of it in the process, that's  
a bonus.

Am looking forward to experimenting and will definitely report back  
with any worthwhile learning. Paul, you deserve a medal for your  
tireless support and advancement of digital B&W.

Thanks guys,
Doug

>    Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:10:44 -0700
>    From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> Subject: RE: Favorite GLOSSY papers for UTEZ/C84?
>
> Doug,
>
>> I prefer the more traditional look of glossy or pearl papers. Most of
>> the talk here seems to be about matte styles. What do those of you
>> actually using the UTEZ/C84 combo for glossy/semigloss prefer? My
>> ideals would be archival enough to sell prints without a disclaimer,
>> little or no bronzing and a price that's not as outrageous as some of
>> the matte papers.
>
> I suspect the only glossy paper line that is "archival" (and I  
> question the
> archival quality of any plastic, RC paper) is Epson's "Premium" line
> (Wilhelm 200 year+ storage life).  My favorite is the Epson Premium
> Semigloss.  However, I think it needs a spray with PremierArt Print  
> Shield
> to control bronzing and protect the surface.
>
> I like the looks of a sprayed Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl even better  
> --
> great dmax.  However, it is a 30 year paper, probably due to its  
> acidity.  A
> spray on the back with Wei T'o will make it "acid free," but I'm not  
> sure
> how long it will stay that way.
>
> The only readily available paper I know of that is artifact free and  
> does
> not need a spray to protect it is Epson Glossy Photo Paper.  It is  
> thinner
> than I'd like and not archival.  It too can be sprayed on the back and  
> will
> then test as "acid free" -- for a while.  However, my tests show that  
> within
> a few months the lignin in the paper will have already overwhelmed the
> buffer if the spray was just a single light one.  I don't know how  
> much Wei
> T'o would be needed to keep the paper acid free for a reasonable time.
>
> Epson sells a roll paper -- Glossy Paper Heavyweight -- that has better
> paper and is made for long term display and storage.  See
> http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/ProductMediaSpec.jsp? 
> BV_UseBVCookie=yes&i
> nfoType=Overview&oid=-8813&category=Paper+%26+Media  (cut and paste the
> URL).
[SNIP]

> Some experiments may be needed.
>
> Good luck, let us know what you come up with.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <
paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> I like the looks of a sprayed Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl even better --
> great dmax.  However, it is a 30 year paper, probably due to its acidity.  A
> spray on the back with Wei T'o will make it "acid free," but I'm not sure
> how long it will stay that way.
> 

None of the art stores around here sell Premier PrintShield. Is there a source 
online?

Also, what is Wei T'o. I haven't heard of this before. You say to spray it on the 
back of the print?

On the glossy papers, even the Ilform pearl, do you the photo black ink 
exclusively (talking C84,EZ).

Cheers,
George Le Masurier

George,


> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:

>> I like the looks of a sprayed Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl even better --
>> great dmax.  However, it is a 30 year paper, probably due to its acidity.

>> A spray on the back with Wei T'o will make it "acid free," but I'm not 
>>sure how long it will stay that way.
> 

>None of the art stores around here sell Premier PrintShield. 
>Is there a source online?

See http://www.premierimagingproducts.com/dealerinfo/


>Also, what is Wei T'o. I haven't heard of this before.

It's a magnesium-based buffer that is dissolved in a solvent and put into an
aerosol can.  When it is sprayed onto a paper the solvent carries the buffer
into the paper, leaving it behind as the solvent evaporates.  This puts the
buffer where it is needed -- right into the paper.  The buffer mops up the
acids made by the breakdown of lignin, which is the main problem with
wood-based papers.

See http://www.weito.com/ 


Lignin (the acid reserve) is not in cotton, which is why the best papers are
made from cotton or some other fiber that is lignin free.  The problem with
even buffered wood-based papers is that even if they test as "acid free" now
(that is, the buffer is now mopping up the acids), we often don't know
whether there is enough buffer to continue to mop up the acids for however
long we want the paper to last.  Less than 1% lignin and more than 2%
calcium carbonate buffer is sometimes said to be the standard for "archival"
wood-based paper, but finding those numbers has not been very easy with
inkjet papers.  

Also, lignin itself, even if buffered, is photosensitive and will yellow the
paper in proportion to how much is there.  Lignin, which is what makes trees
stiff enough to grow tall, is one of the main ingredients of the biosphere
and probably can never be 100% removed from wood-based paper.

> You say to spray it [Wei T'o] the back of the print?

What I've found is that "glossy" or "barrier" papers made for inkjets have
only one polyethylene barrier, and that is between the coating and the
paper.  It's there to stop the water in the ink from getting to the paper
and causing it to get wavy.  Fortunately, the barrier also stops the Wei T'o
solution from getting to the image.  My tests of Wei T'o on non-barrier
(matte) papers suggests that the solution will yellow the image.

>On the glossy papers, even the Ilform pearl, do you the photo black ink 
>exclusively (talking C84,EZ).

Yes, for glossy papers you need the Photo K.  Actually the OEM black is a
hybrid that is not bad for short term snapshots -- on glossy or matte paper.
Don't use Eboni, however, on glossy papers.

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I just pulled out a couple of prints i made on PGPP using UT2 (on a 
1280) a month or so ago. Both prints had been stored stacked with 
other prints (printed with oem inks, FWIW). The UT2 prints had 
roughly evenly spaced white marks, as if ink had come off. The 
evenness of the spacing makes me think something else was going 
on. 

I mostly print on matte, so i don't have much experience with UT2 
and glossy. has anyone else experienced anything like this?

Matt
--
Matt Haber
dance, portrait and fashion photography
http://www.matthaber.com