Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-18 by Clayton Jones

Hello All,

I have an image, a still life, worked up to my satisfaction in PS
using EEM proof paper. The background is solid black, RGB 0 all over.
Can't get any blacker than that.  When I print this (BO with Eboni)
on PR I get what you'd expect - a very deep intense black background.

Now I'm testing a new paper and with the same image the background
looks considerably weaker, so I conclude that this paper has poorer
Dmax than PR.  Just to experiment, I add a curve layer and give it a
bit of a contrast boost to see what happens.  This is a typical
S-curve where the black and white anchor points are not moved.  So all
0 pixels in the background are still zero.  Theoretically nothing in
the background has changed (the rest of the image _has_ changed, of
course).

Now when I print this, the background Dmax has increased considerably,
enough to where I'd think it was a different paper.  What has happened
here?  How can more ink have been put down in an area that was already
solid black?  Of course the other part of the pic is too contrasty -
you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  But I'd sure like to
understand better what's happening.  Anybody know? 

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-18 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Clayton,

Is this a BO print or a print using the colored inks as well?

If it's the colored inks as well, it's a typical result that used to be 
seen in some four color press combinations on certain stocks..


 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-18 by Steve Kale

Just out of interest, have you created a soft proof for the BO/paper
combination?  If so what happens to the background on screen when you soft
proof (without the s-curve)?

Create a test image ­ a simple 100% white square on 100% black background.
Same thing happens?

You sure there wasn¹t a paper/ink change in the Epson driver between
prints.....
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:30:57 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

Hello All,

I have an image, a still life, worked up to my satisfaction in PS
using EEM proof paper. The background is solid black, RGB 0 all over.
Can't get any blacker than that.  When I print this (BO with Eboni)
on PR I get what you'd expect - a very deep intense black background.

Now I'm testing a new paper and with the same image the background
looks considerably weaker, so I conclude that this paper has poorer
Dmax than PR.  Just to experiment, I add a curve layer and give it a
bit of a contrast boost to see what happens.  This is a typical
S-curve where the black and white anchor points are not moved.  So all
0 pixels in the background are still zero.  Theoretically nothing in
the background has changed (the rest of the image _has_ changed, of
course).

Now when I print this, the background Dmax has increased considerably,
enough to where I'd think it was a different paper.  What has happened
here?  How can more ink have been put down in an area that was already
solid black?  Of course the other part of the pic is too contrasty -
you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  But I'd sure like to
understand better what's happening.  Anybody know?

Regards,
Clayton





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-18 by Clayton Jones

Hello Keith,

>Is this a BO print or a print using the colored inks as well?

It's BO with Eboni.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-18 by Robert Krawiec

--- Clayton Jones <cj@...> wrote: 
> Now when I print this, the background Dmax has
> increased considerably,
> enough to where I'd think it was a different paper. 
> What has happened
> here?  

Is this because of the increase in local contrast? Try
punching a small hole in a couple of piece of card and
comparing the solid blacks in isolation on both prints
than way. Local contrast can play tricks...

Of course if you have the cash you can always get a
densitometer...

Rob K.
 


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/

Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-18 by Clayton Jones

Hello Steve,

>Just out of interest, have you created a soft proof for the BO/paper
>combination?  

No, I haven't, I'm not sure what that would accomplish.  What would
this do?


>Create a test image ­ a simple 100% white square on 100% black
>background.  Same thing happens?

Sorry, I don't see the purpose in doing this.  I already have a large
patch of 100% black.  What would this show me?


>You sure there wasn¹t a paper/ink change in the Epson driver
between
>prints.....

Yes, certain.  The settings were the same.


Still mystified...

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-18 by Steve Kale

Just trying to limit some of the variables.  I do not see this behaviour
with QTR so if it is not an accidental paper change or ink load selection in
the driver or something about the specific image then it¹s the Epson driver
doing something very funky.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 03:53:38 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

Hello Steve,

>Just out of interest, have you created a soft proof for the BO/paper
>combination?  

No, I haven't, I'm not sure what that would accomplish.  What would
this do?


>Create a test image ­ a simple 100% white square on 100% black
>background.  Same thing happens?

Sorry, I don't see the purpose in doing this.  I already have a large
patch of 100% black.  What would this show me?


>You sure there wasn¹t a paper/ink change in the Epson driver
between
>prints.....

Yes, certain.  The settings were the same.


Still mystified...

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
 
 ADVERTISEMENT
 <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129oig88j/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=g
roups/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1090209222/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://com
panion.yahoo.com>  


Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
*  
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
* DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Uns
ubscribe> 
*  
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-18 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Clayton Jones [mailto:cj@...]
>
> Now I'm testing a new paper and with the same image the background
> looks considerably weaker, so I conclude that this paper has poorer
> Dmax than PR.  Just to experiment, I add a curve layer and give it a
> bit of a contrast boost to see what happens.  This is a typical
> S-curve where the black and white anchor points are not moved.  So all
> 0 pixels in the background are still zero.  Theoretically nothing in
> the background has changed (the rest of the image _has_ changed, of
> course).
>
> Now when I print this, the background Dmax has increased considerably,
> enough to where I'd think it was a different paper.  What has happened
> here?  How can more ink have been put down in an area that was already
> solid black?  Of course the other part of the pic is too contrasty -
> you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  But I'd sure like to
> understand better what's happening.  Anybody know?

If I print a test target in NCA mode on my 2200, the 0,0,0 patch generally
looks a tad lighter than the nearby black patches. It appears that 0,0,0
translates into pure K, while other small values produce CMYK combinations
that are actually darker. I would think that good profiling software would
be smart enough to avoid pushing the printer into its pure K output range,
but apparently it isn't.

--

Ciao,                   Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                    mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-19 by Clayton Jones

Hello Paul,

>If I print a test target in NCA mode on my 2200, the 0,0,0 patch
>generally looks a tad lighter than the nearby black patches. It 
>appears that 0,0,0 translates into pure K, while other small 
>values produce CMYK combinations that are actually darker. I would 
>think that good profiling software would be smart enough to avoid
>pushing the printer into its pure K output range,
>but apparently it isn't.

I'm not sure what you mean by "CMYK combinations" when I'm printing BO
from only the black cart.  Doesn't that mean combinations of various
inks?

I have been working with the assumption that in a grayscale mode image
a pixel of 0 RGB value is as black as is possible, and that a patch of
0 pixels will be printed with the blackest ink combination that the
printer is capable of (which in a BO print would be 100% coverage of
dots).  

The big assumption is that more ink was laid down in the 2nd print. 
Based on that: 

I was talking with Steve K. about it today and we wondered what there
was about the paper that would make the patch look darker the 2nd
time, when the first print had what looked like 100% coverage.  It
would mean the paper is capable of looking darker with that extra ink
(up to a point I suppose).  That would mean that the quantity of ink
is a factor as well as 100% coverage of dots.  Some questions:

1) Why did the S-curve, which didn't move the zero anchor point and
theoretically didn't change any already zero pixels, make the printer
put down more ink in a patch that was already solid zero pixels?

2) What does "more ink" actually mean in this case? Two squirts on
each dot location instead of one?  Dot locations that overlap?

3) Why does adding more ink to an already 100% covered area of pure
black increase Dmax?  Does a lesser amount of ink sink in deep and
leave less on the surface, and a greater amount "fills it up" so to
speak?

4) Will all papers react to extra ink that way?

5) Here's the biggie: The paper is capable of much better Dmax if you
give it more ink.  I found that I can give it more ink with the curve
(for whatever mysterious reason), but it ruined the pic because the
rest of the image was too contrasty.  How can I make the printer give
it more ink in zero RGB zones without changing the contrast?

One reason I'm so interested is because the paper in question has
paper color and ink color that are nearly identical to Photo Rag, but
considerably less Dmax.  But the 2nd print was so much closer to PR
that it could easily become a PR substitute at a far lower cost and,
from my testing so far, without the flaking problem.  But how to get
more ink to the paper in the black areas...

Thanks for the input.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-19 by Carl Schofield

Clayton,

Under "Ink Configuration" in the Epson driver there is a slider for 
controlling ink density.  I don't know what it does when you are 
printing in BO mode, but you could try increasing the density slider 
value (I think +20 is the max) to boost ink output.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sunday, July 18, 2004, at 08:42  PM, Clayton Jones wrote:

> Hello Paul,
>
>> If I print a test target in NCA mode on my 2200, the 0,0,0 patch
>> generally looks a tad lighter than the nearby black patches. It
>> appears that 0,0,0 translates into pure K, while other small
>> values produce CMYK combinations that are actually darker. I would
>> think that good profiling software would be smart enough to avoid
>> pushing the printer into its pure K output range,
>> but apparently it isn't.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "CMYK combinations" when I'm printing BO
> from only the black cart.  Doesn't that mean combinations of various
> inks?
>
> I have been working with the assumption that in a grayscale mode image
> a pixel of 0 RGB value is as black as is possible, and that a patch of
> 0 pixels will be printed with the blackest ink combination that the
> printer is capable of (which in a BO print would be 100% coverage of
> dots).
>
> The big assumption is that more ink was laid down in the 2nd print.
> Based on that:
>
> I was talking with Steve K. about it today and we wondered what there
> was about the paper that would make the patch look darker the 2nd
> time, when the first print had what looked like 100% coverage.  It
> would mean the paper is capable of looking darker with that extra ink
> (up to a point I suppose).  That would mean that the quantity of ink
> is a factor as well as 100% coverage of dots.  Some questions:
>
> 1) Why did the S-curve, which didn't move the zero anchor point and
> theoretically didn't change any already zero pixels, make the printer
> put down more ink in a patch that was already solid zero pixels?
>
> 2) What does "more ink" actually mean in this case? Two squirts on
> each dot location instead of one?  Dot locations that overlap?
>
> 3) Why does adding more ink to an already 100% covered area of pure
> black increase Dmax?  Does a lesser amount of ink sink in deep and
> leave less on the surface, and a greater amount "fills it up" so to
> speak?
>
> 4) Will all papers react to extra ink that way?
>
> 5) Here's the biggie: The paper is capable of much better Dmax if you
> give it more ink.  I found that I can give it more ink with the curve
> (for whatever mysterious reason), but it ruined the pic because the
> rest of the image was too contrasty.  How can I make the printer give
> it more ink in zero RGB zones without changing the contrast?
>
> One reason I'm so interested is because the paper in question has
> paper color and ink color that are nearly identical to Photo Rag, but
> considerably less Dmax.  But the 2nd print was so much closer to PR
> that it could easily become a PR substitute at a far lower cost and,
> from my testing so far, without the flaking problem.  But how to get
> more ink to the paper in the black areas...
>
> Thanks for the input.
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

RE: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-19 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Clayton Jones [mailto:cj@...]
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "CMYK combinations" when I'm printing BO
> from only the black cart.  Doesn't that mean combinations of various
> inks?

Yes, a later message from you clarified that you were printing BO.

> 1) Why did the S-curve, which didn't move the zero anchor point and
> theoretically didn't change any already zero pixels, make the printer
> put down more ink in a patch that was already solid zero pixels?

Have you tested it with some solid patches, so that you _know_ you're seeing
this effect in a 0,0,0 area, rather than on something nearby which isn't
quite 0,0,0?

> 3) Why does adding more ink to an already 100% covered area of pure
> black increase Dmax?  Does a lesser amount of ink sink in deep and
> leave less on the surface, and a greater amount "fills it up" so to
> speak?

I suppose any real-world black ink passes some light, so laying it down
thicker will increase the Dmax a tad.

> 5) Here's the biggie: The paper is capable of much better Dmax if you
> give it more ink.  I found that I can give it more ink with the curve
> (for whatever mysterious reason), but it ruined the pic because the
> rest of the image was too contrasty.  How can I make the printer give
> it more ink in zero RGB zones without changing the contrast?

You should test this on a 21-step wedge, and on a gradient, to see if there
is any inversion in the scale. I'd be curious to hear your results.

--

Ciao,                   Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                    mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-19 by Tyler Boley

Clayton, I've been watching this thread with some interest..

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:...
snip..

> 1) Why did the S-curve, which didn't move the zero anchor point and
> theoretically didn't change any already zero pixels, make the printer
> put down more ink in a patch that was already solid zero pixels?

As you previously state, it is an assumption that more ink went down,
but..
I can think of no possible reason RGB 0, 0, 0, would print differently
from two different files. I would be inclined to go back and carefully
verify everything, all printing settings for both, double check file
values, etc..

> 2) What does "more ink" actually mean in this case? Two squirts on
> each dot location instead of one?  Dot locations that overlap?

Driver guys like Roy could tell you more about that.

> 3) Why does adding more ink to an already 100% covered area of pure
> black increase Dmax?

Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Depends on ink, paper,
printer. It's also an (perhaps) assumption that 100% ink is in fact
full coverage of the paper. I believe there is still a dot pattern at
100%, the driver cannot simply open up and pour it down.

>  Does a lesser amount of ink sink in deep and
> leave less on the surface, and a greater amount "fills it up" so to
> speak?
> 
> 4) Will all papers react to extra ink that way?

Not necessarily, in fact some, with some ink, will have a higher dmax
at something less than 100%, for example papers that bronze.

> 5) Here's the biggie: The paper is capable of much better Dmax if you
> give it more ink.  I found that I can give it more ink with the curve
> (for whatever mysterious reason), but it ruined the pic because the
> rest of the image was too contrasty.  How can I make the printer give
> it more ink in zero RGB zones without changing the contrast?

There's something goofy going on. 000 is 000, context shouldn't be an
issue, if it were none of our procedures would work from file to file.
The only way of I know to change what the printer puts down at a given
input value is through driver settings, media, ppi, etc..
> 
> ...But how to get
> more ink to the paper in the black areas...

First, just verify, then maybe you can track down the method.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-19 by Clayton Jones

Hello Carl,

>you could try increasing the density slider 
>value (I think +20 is the max) to boost ink output.

I'm out of that paper now (more on the way) but I tried it with
another paper and, as I suspected, it darkened the entire print
equally.  However in the process I answered Question #4
 
  >4) Will all papers react to extra ink that way?

I applied the same curve to the 2nd paper (similar Dmax) and the Dmax
increase was barely noticeable (separate test without the density
slider).  All very interesting.  

Are you doing any new experiments with the 4000?  

Did you see my post about C64/4000 dither pattern?  Will be _real
nice_ if the C64 has the same pattern.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-19 by Clayton Jones

Hello Tyler, Paul D.,

>I can think of no possible reason RGB 0, 0, 0, would print 
>differently from two different files. I would be inclined to go 
>back and carefully verify everything, all printing settings for 
>both, double check file values, etc..

Sorry if I didn't explain well, it's not from two files.  Both prints
were from the same grayscale image, same printer, paper, ink, and
settings.  The only difference was the 2nd print had a curve layer
added with a slight S-curve to increase contrast (a typical S-curve
where the black and white anchor points were not changed).  The
background is entirely solid black (when working up the image I
purposely selected out the background and made every pixel RGB 0,0,0).
 The background in the 2nd print had significantly better Dmax.



>>3) Why does adding more ink to an already 100% covered area of pure
>>black increase Dmax?
 
>Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Depends on ink, paper,
>printer. 

i.e. my reply to Carl - I found it didn't react the same on another
paper.


>It's also an (perhaps) assumption that 100% ink is in fact
>full coverage of the paper. I believe there is still a dot pattern at
>100%, the driver cannot simply open up and pour it down.

Yes, certainly there's a pattern.  Probably the pattern was simply
tightened up.  The real mystery is still why the S-curve would have
caused any change to begin with.



>with some ink, will have a higher dmax at something less than 100%,
>for example papers that bronze.

Hmmm..., that certainly adds some complexity. 



>There's something goofy going on. 000 is 000, context [contrast?]
>shouldn't be an issue

Exactly.  That's the big question.  I was hoping this was some known
phenomenon and someone like you would have the answer.  All we know at
this point is

1) The curve made a difference
2) The difference was significant on one paper and barely noticeable
on another.

I'm beginning to think we'll have to chalk this one up to "Twilight
Zone" <g>.

Thanks very much for the input.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-19 by Clayton Jones

Hello Rob,

>Is this because of the increase in local contrast? Try
>punching a small hole in a couple of piece of card and
>comparing the solid blacks in isolation on both prints
>than way. Local contrast can play tricks...

No, not in this case.  There is a huge amount of background, and the
top 25% of the print is solid black.  I can put them side by side and
cover the bottom 75% where I'm only seeing two black rectangles.  The
difference is obvious.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-19 by Clayton Jones

Hello Tyler,

>Clayton, when you get more paper in, do it again to make sure with
>the same file if possible. Let us know.

Ok, I intend to do more testing with this paper because of its
potential. The vendor said the new samples are from a new production
run and there may be some differences.  So I'm just hoping that any
changes are for the better.

However, I think the point is established that the curve made a
difference, because it did it with another paper.  The only difference
is the the amount of change in the 2nd paper was barely noticeable. 
But there _was_ a difference.

The curve making a difference and what happens with this paper are two
separate issues.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-20 by dlruckus

Hi Clayton,
I'm a newbie to the list. I've noticed that effect directly on Concord
Rag when printing BO with a 1200. The 000 density visually appeared
significantly lighter than a 10,10,10 patch in a 21 step scale I had
been trying to make linear to separate tones via a curve. I attributed
it to filling in the surface coating and changing it's reflectivity. I
don't know what a densitometer would have shown. Concord is the only
paper to date I have used thats done that.

Best,
Duane



-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hello All,
> 
> I have an image, a still life, worked up to my satisfaction in PS
> using EEM proof paper. The background is solid black, RGB 0 all over.
> Can't get any blacker than that.  When I print this (BO with Eboni)
> on PR I get what you'd expect - a very deep intense black background.
> 
> Now I'm testing a new paper and with the same image the background
> looks considerably weaker, so I conclude that this paper has poorer
> Dmax than PR.  Just to experiment, I add a curve layer and give it a
> bit of a contrast boost to see what happens.  This is a typical
> S-curve where the black and white anchor points are not moved.  So all
> 0 pixels in the background are still zero.  Theoretically nothing in
> the background has changed (the rest of the image _has_ changed, of
> course).
> 
> Now when I print this, the background Dmax has increased considerably,
> enough to where I'd think it was a different paper.  What has happened
> here?  How can more ink have been put down in an area that was already
> solid black?  Of course the other part of the pic is too contrasty -
> you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  But I'd sure like to
> understand better what's happening.  Anybody know? 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

2004-07-20 by Steve Kale

But a curve still can¹t change a 0,0,0 value to anything else (if the anchor
points have not moved).  It can push a 1,1,1 to 0,0,0 but can¹t change the
0,0,0.  You are using one ink and so any composite ink factors are out.  I
would still do a controlled test (the black square) just to make sure that
non-zero pixels aren¹t the cause.  BTW, if you like the look of black only
you could still use QTR and a single ink (presumably Eboni) and have
absolute control of how much ink is laid down at 100.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:25:02 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How Curves Affect Zero RGB?

Hello Tyler,

>Clayton, when you get more paper in, do it again to make sure with
>the same file if possible. Let us know.

Ok, I intend to do more testing with this paper because of its
potential. The vendor said the new samples are from a new production
run and there may be some differences.  So I'm just hoping that any
changes are for the better.

However, I think the point is established that the curve made a
difference, because it did it with another paper.  The only difference
is the the amount of change in the 2nd paper was barely noticeable.
But there _was_ a difference.

The curve making a difference and what happens with this paper are two
separate issues.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
 
 ADVERTISEMENT
 <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129nqqmd5/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=g
roups/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1090304709/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://com
panion.yahoo.com>  


Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
*  
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
* DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Uns
ubscribe> 
*  
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.