Digital BW, The Print

I didn't say I didn't sell prints on expensive media, and that I don't care how long they last.  The point is, you've got to go with someone else's information, or determine it on your own.  I trust Wilhelm's work for my ink/paper combinations as about the best guess we have at the moment.  But, still all I know FOR SURE is what I see.  I can't see it 100 years from now, and neither can anyone else.
 
Tom Baker

john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
Well, yes I am very new to this site and I now know who Paul is. 
He is apparently very committed to the highest level of 
monochrome innovation and we need people like him fighting 
for us against the muli-nationals.

I have read in the past that the MIS inks were all made in China 
and thus their significantly cheaper price in the past. If this is still 
true that would be enough to scare me away. The one great thing 
about Epson ( and Cone I'm not sure about) is that they have 
great consistency in production, that you pay for of course.

If I were just making prints for my living room I wouldn't care 
about permanence either, and if you don't need to worry about it 
your lucky. I sell digital prints for a lot of money on expensive 
media so my clients put the pressure on me. I clearly remember 
when I was in graduate school and my collegues who were 
using Kodak Ektacolor paper for their thesis work often watched 
them shift color before their portflio's were even completed. Two 
companies changed that - Fuji with their real improvements and 
Wilhelm who attacked Kodak like a rabid dog on a mission. This 
competition has to continue on the permanence level ( no it isn't 
everything) and apparently Paul Roark is helping to do that. Time 
will tell.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hmmmm....what do have against Chinese production?  Better get used to Made
in China.  It is the natural place for a large portion of the world¹s
manufacturing to shift to.  Where the goods are made or assembled is not an
absolute indication of their quality.  Is Taiwan ok but China not? Err,
anything by Apple. I do not know where MIS inks are manufactured and only
hope that they are made in the cheapest possible place but what I do care
about is MIS¹ reputation in the industry and their ability to provide
quality product.  On this count they seem to do ok.

John I think you have a valid question when you ask if there is any
independent testing of the longevity of MIS inks.  But that doesn¹t demand
that there be any.  Many are happy to go with them because of MIS¹
reputation and the involvement of key people such as Paul.  If you are not
then stick with the Epson inks or whatever.  Made in Japan may sound better
(it wasn¹t the case a number of years back).

From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>

<<I have read in the past that the MIS inks were all made in China
and thus their significantly cheaper price in the past. If this is still
true that would be enough to scare me away. The one great thing
about Epson ( and Cone I'm not sure about) is that they have
great consistency in production, that you pay for of course.>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve Kale wrote:
> Hmmmm....what do have against Chinese production?  Better get used to Made
> in China.  It is the natural place for a large portion of the world\ufffds
> manufacturing to shift to.  Where the goods are made or assembled is not an
> absolute indication of their quality.  Is Taiwan ok but China not? Err,
> anything by Apple. I do not know where MIS inks are manufactured and only
> hope that they are made in the cheapest possible place but what I do care
> about is MIS\ufffd reputation in the industry and their ability to provide
> quality product.  On this count they seem to do ok.
> 
> John I think you have a valid question when you ask if there is any
> independent testing of the longevity of MIS inks.  But that doesn\ufffdt demand
> that there be any.  Many are happy to go with them because of MIS\ufffd
> reputation and the involvement of key people such as Paul.  If you are not
> then stick with the Epson inks or whatever.  Made in Japan may sound better
> (it wasn\ufffdt the case a number of years back).
> 
> 
> From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
> 
> <<I have read in the past that the MIS inks were all made in China
> and thus their significantly cheaper price in the past. If this is still
> true that would be enough to scare me away. The one great thing
> about Epson ( and Cone I'm not sure about) is that they have
> great consistency in production, that you pay for of course.>>

If you check
www.neomark.com.tw
you will see a wide range of inks for inkjets + CIS systems.

After that you will see Cone Editions Press Ltd mentioned as the 
agent for Neomark in the USA:
http://www.neomark.com.tw/profile/agents.htm

That still doesn't guarantee that Cone's quad sets are made by 
that company.  But China in general is a big producer of filled 
carts and for a long time already.  Epson carts as well.  In some 
cases ink is exported to China to fill carts that are later on 
sold on the world market. Van Son at least did that for some 
time.  Costs in manufacturing bulk ink will not be that much 
cheaper in China, confectioning is.  Big chemical companies like 
Ciba-Geigy, Dupont, Akzo-Nobel, Mitsubishi produce pigments 
everywhere in their plants and they are the real sources of the 
new pigment types for inkjet inks.

Ernst

At 01:46 PM 7/18/2004, john dean wrote:

>I have read in the past that the MIS inks were all made in China
>and thus their significantly cheaper price in the past. If this is still
>true that would be enough to scare me away. The one great thing
>about Epson ( and Cone I'm not sure about) is that they have
>great consistency in production, that you pay for of course.

Consistency certainly matters to me.

But I don't believe there's any reason to believe that place of origin and 
consistency are tied together.  There are factories all over the world that 
have implemented high standards of quality control, and many more that have 
not.





  A r t h u r    F i n k     P h o t o g r a p h y
  ------------------------------------------------
  Ten New Island Avenue               207.766.5722
  Peaks Island, Maine 04108  arthur@...

I checked Neomark's website and they are touting "encapsulated" pigment 
inks, and also sell "regular" pigment inks. Does anybody know the 
difference between the two?

Thanks,
Barbara White

The encapsulated pigment inks are encapsulated in a poly resin. The Epson "archival" 
inkset as used in the old 2000P, 7500,9500, and CF 10K printers use this inkset. I thought 
Epson had a patent on this technology ( and offered it to other companies for a price) but 
there could be other companies that market this kind of pigment also. I just don't know 
about that. 

The encapsulated pigments were designed to give the color pigment inks more saturation 
while making them more water resistant. My feelings is that before these inks became 
available pigment inks looked a little flat and chalky. I have never had too much problem 
with saturaton of the Epson archival inkset but the mononochrome content without 
metamerism has always been problematic.

The new Ultra-Chrome inks Epson had released increase this saturaton in the yellow 
channel even more, making them easier to work with when it comes to the warmer side of 
the color gamut and the metamerism in monochrome work is greatly reduced. I'm sure 
there are companies out there attempting to copy these inks if they haven't already done 
so. If so, how reliable their production standards are is an issue worth checking into.

john dean wrote:
> The encapsulated pigment inks are encapsulated in a poly resin. The Epson "archival" 
> inkset as used in the old 2000P, 7500,9500, and CF 10K printers use this inkset. I thought 
> Epson had a patent on this technology ( and offered it to other companies for a price) but 
> there could be other companies that market this kind of pigment also. I just don't know 
> about that. 

The encapsulation of pigment particles in an acrylate polymer is 
not a new idea.  20 years ago and maybe even longer  silkscreen 
inks for plastics used that concept. The encapsulated pigments 
were called pellets then if I remember it correctly.  The ink was 
considered more fade resistant and wasn't cheap. To make pellets 
small enough for use in inkjets must have been a difficult task 
but getting a patent even more difficult.

Ernst

>I have read in the past that the MIS inks were all made in China

I know where MIS buys its inks, and the company is in the U.S.  Where that
company gets the various inputs is another question.  I would guess they
come from more than one place.

>... If this is still
>true that would be enough to scare me away. The one great thing
>about Epson ( and Cone I'm not sure about) is that they have
>great consistency in production, that you pay for of course.

I've measured inconsistencies in the inks of all the suppliers mentioned
above.  I was bemoaning the fact with a fabrics seller, who also confessed
that no 2 batches are the same.  Here is a quote from the X-Rite "Color
Guide" relating to the use of "tolerance spheres" (the allowable Delta E in
manufacturing):  "Tolerances of less than 2 [Delta] units are typically
unachievable given normal process variation ..."

In B&W the eye is so sensitive to hue changes that the above tolerances
become troublesome.  I'm working on ways to reduce the problem, but
re-mixing the inksets for every input batch is major hassle that no one is
going to do for the price we are willing to pay.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com