Digital BW, The Print

Hi Group:

I've been noticing that my older Enhanced Matt prints are starting to 
yellow in the paper base.  These papers have been stored in a 
drawer.  Is this normal?

Also, does anyone know if Ultrasmooth Fine Art will become available 
in sizes suitable for the 2200?

Thanks in advance!

Robert Ades

The Enhanced Matte does have optical brightners but I have never had them turn yellow. 
However, the quality of the paper is not close to the better rag media.

Does anyone know if Epson's new paper Ultra-Smooth is in fact made by Arches? I noticed 
that the smooth texture version of Infinity has a close affinity with Ultra-Smooth? Infinity 
came out about 6 months after Ultra-Smooth was released.

The people at the Stock Solution think the printer profiles about the same. This doesn't 
mean they are the same paper though.

Well one thing that shocks me is the price of Ultra Smooth.  I think 
it's more than Velvet Fine Art.  

I like Enhanced Matt for everyday uses, proofing, etc.  

-Robert

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> The Enhanced Matte does have optical brightners but I have never 
had them turn yellow. 
> However, the quality of the paper is not close to the better rag 
media.
> 
> Does anyone know if Epson's new paper Ultra-Smooth is in fact made 
by Arches? I noticed 
> that the smooth texture version of Infinity has a close affinity 
with Ultra-Smooth? Infinity 
> came out about 6 months after Ultra-Smooth was released.
> 
> The people at the Stock Solution think the printer profiles about 
the same. This doesn't 
> mean they are the same paper though.

Yes known issue documented by Henry Wilhelm. Just take the raw paper 
flash it with UV and store it... over time it will go yellow. That 
is why the name change from archival matt to enhanced matt.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" 
<LA_Native@h...> wrote:
> Hi Group:
> 
> I've been noticing that my older Enhanced Matt prints are starting 
to 
> yellow in the paper base.  These papers have been stored in a 
> drawer.  Is this normal?
> 
> Also, does anyone know if Ultrasmooth Fine Art will become 
available 

> in sizes suitable for the 2200?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Robert Ades

>I've been noticing that my older Enhanced Matt prints are starting to 
>yellow in the paper base.  These papers have been stored in a 
>drawer.  Is this normal?

EEM is a non-buffered, acidic, wood-based (with residual lignin) paper that
appears to deteriorate quickly in certain storage conditions.  If you can't
re-print the images on acid-free paper, store them with buffered interleaves
in a dry, acid-free environment.  

Among other sources of problems, other papers in a drawer may be releasing
acids that will attack un-buffered prints.  That is what appears to have
polluted my silver prints.  You can interrupt the acidic cascade (chain
reaction) by putting the paper in a bag with a cap full of ammonia for about
10 minutes.  It'll stay yellow, and the ammonia will not buffer the EEM, but
it might help stop the cascading chain reaction. 

If the drawer is wood, it may be a source of problems.

We really need a good, affordable, acid-free paper to replace EEM.  Most of
the papers that come close don't have the dmax or are otherwise not quite up
to the EEM quality, however.  I'm not sure I'd trust any non-cotton paper
with really long-term uses.

>Also, does anyone know if Ultrasmooth Fine Art will become available 
>in sizes suitable for the 2200?

Have you tried the Premier Imaging Fine Art Hot Press papers?  I think they
are close to UltraSmooth.  (I believe the come from the same basic stock,
although there are some profile differences.)  For even a more affordable
alternative, try the Moab Entrada papers.  The Natural (no OBAs) Entrada 300
seems like a good substitute for UltraSmooth.  Be sure to brush or wipe it
first to avoid flaking.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Ultra smooth is definitely not the same as Velvet Fine Art...much 
mellower and yellower and, well, smoother. I think it is made by 
Crane for Epson.

Unlikely we will see it for the 2200 anytime soon...they can't even 
seem to supply it in wide format rolls in any quantity. It's 
theoretically available in a 13x19 sheet pack but I have never seen 
it anywhere for sale.

I think your best bet for Ultra Smooth for 2200 is to buy a larger 
roll and cut it down.

Now...if we could just stretch the Velvet Fine Art to 17x30 <g>...

cheers,

Tom O'Connell

> Does anyone know if Epson's new paper Ultra-Smooth is in fact made 
> by Arches? I noticed 
> that the smooth texture version of Infinity has a close affinity 
> with Ultra-Smooth? Infinity 
> came out about 6 months after Ultra-Smooth was released.

Doubtful, but possible I suppose. I've profiled both of these papers and 
there are a few differences when you graph them in 3D. I'll tell you what 
IS in fact the same as USFA. PremeirArt Fine Art Hot Press is the same 
paper, as is Parrot Digigraphic's Satin Fine Art Duo.


Eric  Bullock
Color Guy
Hecht's/Strawbridge's Advertising
685 N. Glebe Road
Arlington, VA 22203

703.247.2391
eric_bullock@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Erick,

Very useful what you said about the Ultra- Smooth. Has anyone actually profiled and used 
Arches Infinity to any extent? Is is worth the greater cost? 

I received an email from Digial Art Supplies in California and Steve there says that Ultra-
Smooth is not made by Arches despite the similarities. Epson is not revealing who makes it  
according to him. Some people suggest it is made by 
Crane. If so it certainly is an improvement over the Smooth Fine Art they created a few 
years ago. I had terrible scratching problems with that media even in the printer, and it 
didin't take blacks very well either. 

It is nice that these papers are getting better and better. People are looking for U. Smooth 
in the smaller sheet form? Is is available through that Premier Art version. I'll check into 
that.




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, eric_bullock@h... wrote:

> > Does anyone know if Epson's new paper Ultra-Smooth is in fact made 
> > by Arches? I noticed 
> > that the smooth texture version of Infinity has a close affinity 
> > with Ultra-Smooth? Infinity 
> > came out about 6 months after Ultra-Smooth was released.
> 
> Doubtful, but possible I suppose. I've profiled both of these papers and 
> there are a few differences when you graph them in 3D. I'll tell you what 
> IS in fact the same as USFA. PremeirArt Fine Art Hot Press is the same 
> paper, as is Parrot Digigraphic's Satin Fine Art Duo.
> 
> 
> Eric  Bullock
> Color Guy
> Hecht's/Strawbridge's Advertising
> 685 N. Glebe Road
> Arlington, VA 22203
> 
> 703.247.2391
> eric_bullock@h...
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>...Arches Infinity ... Is it worth the greater cost? 

No.

I was very unimpressed with the paper.  I'd rather use Arches Hot Press
(uncoated) than their inkjet paper.  

Surprisingly, the uncoated Hot Press has not done as well as the best inkjet
papers in lightfastness testing.  And, of course, the dmax and smoothness is
not quite up to the good coated papers.  However, with UT7 it is not bad for
those who think inkjet papers are inherently weak due to the coatings.  In
the art community, the name really carries a lot of weight. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> >I've been noticing that my older Enhanced Matt prints are starting 
to 
> >yellow in the paper base.  These papers have been stored in a 
> >drawer.  Is this normal?
> 
> EEM is a non-buffered, acidic, wood-based (with residual lignin) 
paper that
> appears to deteriorate quickly in certain storage conditions.  If 
you can't
> re-print the images on acid-free paper, store them with buffered 
interleaves
> in a dry, acid-free environment.  
> 
> Among other sources of problems, other papers in a drawer may be 
releasing
> acids that will attack un-buffered prints.  That is what appears to 
have
> polluted my silver prints.  You can interrupt the acidic cascade 
(chain
> reaction) by putting the paper in a bag with a cap full of ammonia 
for about
> 10 minutes.  It'll stay yellow, and the ammonia will not buffer the 
EEM, but
> it might help stop the cascading chain reaction. 
> 
> If the drawer is wood, it may be a source of problems.
> 
> We really need a good, affordable, acid-free paper to replace EEM.  
Most of
> the papers that come close don't have the dmax or are otherwise not 
quite up
> to the EEM quality, however.  I'm not sure I'd trust any non-cotton 
paper
> with really long-term uses.
> 
> >Also, does anyone know if Ultrasmooth Fine Art will become 
available 
> >in sizes suitable for the 2200?
> 
> Have you tried the Premier Imaging Fine Art Hot Press papers?  I 
think they
> are close to UltraSmooth.  (I believe the come from the same basic 
stock,
> although there are some profile differences.)  For even a more 
affordable
> alternative, try the Moab Entrada papers.  The Natural (no OBAs) 
Entrada 300
> seems like a good substitute for UltraSmooth.  Be sure to brush or 
wipe it
> first to avoid flaking.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, Do you think there is any paper as good or better than H Photo 
Rag? I know it's $$$ but I haven't anything to equal it. Thanks for 
being here for all of us.
       Arlene
         www.arlenelove.com

Arlene,

I think PhotoRag (including the private label versions) is the visual champ.
I have seen no other matte paper with as high a dmax and dynamic range.  I,
of course, like smooth papers for a traditional "photographic" look.

I am bothered by the PhotoRag optical brighteners, flaking, and sensitive
coating (to both physical abrasion and gas attack).  I flip-flop on what
paper is best overall for these reasons.  The new PermaJet papers (Alpha,
etc.) are contenders (dmax between EEM and PhotoRag, almost no flaking, and
no or little OBAs, depending on version).  UltraSmooth and the related
PremierArt papers are contenders (average dmax, almost no flaking, no OBAs
but still relatively white).  And, when price is weighted, Moab papers are
in contention (flaking and an average dmax being the main drawbacks I know
of).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

_____________________

-----Original Message-----
From: lovelipp [mailto:ArleneLoveL@...] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:38 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Enhanced Matt and Ultrasmooth Fine Art

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> >I've been noticing that my older Enhanced Matt prints are starting 
to 
> >yellow in the paper base.  These papers have been stored in a 
> >drawer.  Is this normal?
> 
> EEM is a non-buffered, acidic, wood-based (with residual lignin) 
paper that
> appears to deteriorate quickly in certain storage conditions.  If 
you can't
> re-print the images on acid-free paper, store them with buffered 
interleaves
> in a dry, acid-free environment.  
> 
> Among other sources of problems, other papers in a drawer may be 
releasing
> acids that will attack un-buffered prints.  That is what appears to 
have
> polluted my silver prints.  You can interrupt the acidic cascade 
(chain
> reaction) by putting the paper in a bag with a cap full of ammonia 
for about
> 10 minutes.  It'll stay yellow, and the ammonia will not buffer the 
EEM, but
> it might help stop the cascading chain reaction. 
> 
> If the drawer is wood, it may be a source of problems.
> 
> We really need a good, affordable, acid-free paper to replace EEM.  
Most of
> the papers that come close don't have the dmax or are otherwise not 
quite up
> to the EEM quality, however.  I'm not sure I'd trust any non-cotton 
paper
> with really long-term uses.
> 
> >Also, does anyone know if Ultrasmooth Fine Art will become 
available 
> >in sizes suitable for the 2200?
> 
> Have you tried the Premier Imaging Fine Art Hot Press papers?  I 
think they
> are close to UltraSmooth.  (I believe the come from the same basic 
stock,
> although there are some profile differences.)  For even a more 
affordable
> alternative, try the Moab Entrada papers.  The Natural (no OBAs) 
Entrada 300
> seems like a good substitute for UltraSmooth.  Be sure to brush or 
wipe it
> first to avoid flaking.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, Do you think there is any paper as good or better than H Photo 
Rag? I know it's $$$ but I haven't anything to equal it. Thanks for 
being here for all of us.
       Arlene
         www.arlenelove.com
 




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
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ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Hello Arlene,

>is any paper as good or better than H Photo Rag? 

A lot depends on what "good" and "better" mean.  If Dmax is the
primary thing then the answer is likely no - as Paul has mentioned, PR
has the best Dmax.  However, some other papers have almost as good a
Dmax and look great - it is only when placed next to PR that the
difference can be seen.  But they don't look like PR.

There are other things (paper color, ink color and texture) that have
to be considered as well.  One interesting thing is that warmer
colored papers don't necessarily equate to warmer ink color.  At least
one medium warm paper renders carbon inks very cool.  So there's a
wide variety to choose from.

I'm in the final stages of an article comparing a number of papers
(hope to publish next week), and I'm using a system of rating these
things so that the reader can have some idea of what the papers look
like.  Paper color is rated with a White Scale of W1 - W6 (1 is pure
white and 6 is creamy warm), and Black ink (Eboni) color is B1 - B6 (1
is cold and 6 is very warm). 

Photo Rag is W2+B4, and so far I've found only one other paper that
has that combination and it has a smooth surface, seems to have no
flaking and is much less expensive.  Unfortunately it's Dmax is not in
the same class as PR, otherwise it would be a ringer for it. Sigh.

Some papers that do have excellent Dmax have paper/ink colors of W1+B1
(Condor), W4+B2 (Merlin), W4+B6 (Velvet Fine Art) and W6+B5 (Premier
Hot Press).  So while they all have good Dmax none of them look
anything like PR, and some have different contrast, requiring some
adjusting to match the proof print.  

Then of course there's thickness, texture, flaking, OBAs...

Lots of things to consider

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Arlene,
> 
...
> I'm in the final stages of an article comparing a number of papers
> (hope to publish next week), and I'm using a system of rating these
> things so that the reader can have some idea of what the papers look
> like.  Paper color is rated with a White Scale of W1 - W6 (1 is pure
> white and 6 is creamy warm), and Black ink (Eboni) color is B1 - B6 
(1
> is cold and 6 is very warm). 
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I will look forward to seeing tis article.  Will it appear on your 
website or some place else?  

Bailey

Hello Bailey,

>I will look forward to seeing this article.  Will it appear on your 
>website or some place else?  

On the web site.  It's nearly done, just waiting for some new samples
that are on the way.  I hope to publish it next week, and will
continue to add more papers as I can get samples.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

what is a good source (cheap) for Premier Imaging Fine Art Hot Press papers

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:59:26 -0700, Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Arlene,
> 
> I think PhotoRag (including the private label versions) is the visual champ.
> I have seen no other matte paper with as high a dmax and dynamic range.  I,
> of course, like smooth papers for a traditional "photographic" look.
> 
> I am bothered by the PhotoRag optical brighteners, flaking, and sensitive
> coating (to both physical abrasion and gas attack).  I flip-flop on what
> paper is best overall for these reasons.  The new PermaJet papers (Alpha,
> etc.) are contenders (dmax between EEM and PhotoRag, almost no flaking, and
> no or little OBAs, depending on version).  UltraSmooth and the related
> PremierArt papers are contenders (average dmax, almost no flaking, no OBAs
> but still relatively white).  And, when price is weighted, Moab papers are
> in contention (flaking and an average dmax being the main drawbacks I know
> of).
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> _____________________
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lovelipp [mailto:ArleneLoveL@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:38 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Enhanced Matt and Ultrasmooth Fine Art
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >
> > >I've been noticing that my older Enhanced Matt prints are starting
> to
> > >yellow in the paper base.  These papers have been stored in a
> > >drawer.  Is this normal?
> >
> > EEM is a non-buffered, acidic, wood-based (with residual lignin)
> paper that
> > appears to deteriorate quickly in certain storage conditions.  If
> you can't
> > re-print the images on acid-free paper, store them with buffered
> interleaves
> > in a dry, acid-free environment.
> >
> > Among other sources of problems, other papers in a drawer may be
> releasing
> > acids that will attack un-buffered prints.  That is what appears to
> have
> > polluted my silver prints.  You can interrupt the acidic cascade
> (chain
> > reaction) by putting the paper in a bag with a cap full of ammonia
> for about
> > 10 minutes.  It'll stay yellow, and the ammonia will not buffer the
> EEM, but
> > it might help stop the cascading chain reaction.
> >
> > If the drawer is wood, it may be a source of problems.
> >
> > We really need a good, affordable, acid-free paper to replace EEM.
> Most of
> > the papers that come close don't have the dmax or are otherwise not
> quite up
> > to the EEM quality, however.  I'm not sure I'd trust any non-cotton
> paper
> > with really long-term uses.
> >
> > >Also, does anyone know if Ultrasmooth Fine Art will become
> available
> > >in sizes suitable for the 2200?
> >
> > Have you tried the Premier Imaging Fine Art Hot Press papers?  I
> think they
> > are close to UltraSmooth.  (I believe the come from the same basic
> stock,
> > although there are some profile differences.)  For even a more
> affordable
> > alternative, try the Moab Entrada papers.  The Natural (no OBAs)
> Entrada 300
> > seems like a good substitute for UltraSmooth.  Be sure to brush or
> wipe it
> > first to avoid flaking.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> Paul, Do you think there is any paper as good or better than H Photo
> Rag? I know it's $$$ but I haven't anything to equal it. Thanks for
> being here for all of us.
>       Arlene
>         www.arlenelove.com
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------
reagrds, mehrdad