Digital BW, The Print

I don't know if there is much interest in alternatives to inkjet printing but I am ready to try the LightJet route and would like to know if anyone out there who has gone that route has any advice that might keep me out of trouble. I know that LightJet, being a color process, does not easily produce truly neutral black and white prints. To improve my odds, I would like to start by finding a lab that is capable of producing good black and white prints, preferably (but not necessarily) in or near New York City. If anyone has had good or bad experiences with a particular lab or with LightJet in general, your comments would be much appreciated. I think they would also be of interest to others on this list who are thinking of trying this method.

Thanks.

Olaf Ringdahl


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Olaf

Why Lightjet? Why not go and see a Professional (For a Living B & W Inkjet
Printer)

Best
Jim Doyle

J.Doyle Enterprises L.L.C.
114 Old Orchard Rd.
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
856-424-8660
http://www.shadesofpaper.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Olaf Ringdahl [mailto:o.ringdahl@...]
  Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:23 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Lightjet for b&w


  I don't know if there is much interest in alternatives to inkjet printing
but I am ready to try the LightJet route and would like to know if anyone
out there who has gone that route has any advice that might keep me out of
trouble. I know that LightJet, being a color process, does not easily
produce truly neutral black and white prints. To improve my odds, I would
like to start by finding a lab that is capable of producing good black and
white prints, preferably (but not necessarily) in or near New York City. If
anyone has had good or bad experiences with a particular lab or with
LightJet in general, your comments would be much appreciated. I think they
would also be of interest to others on this list who are thinking of trying
this method.

  Thanks.

  Olaf Ringdahl


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just curious why you are giving up on the inkjet route?
Mark

On Jul 20, 2004, at 6:22 PM, Olaf Ringdahl wrote:

> I don't know if there is much interest in alternatives to inkjet 
> printing but I am ready to try the LightJet route and would like to 
> know if anyone out there who has gone that route has any advice that 
> might keep me out of trouble. I know that LightJet, being a color 
> process, does not easily produce truly neutral black and white prints. 
> To improve my odds, I would like to start by finding a lab that is 
> capable of producing good black and white prints, preferably (but not 
> necessarily) in or near New York City. If anyone has had good or bad 
> experiences with a particular lab or with LightJet in general, your 
> comments would be much appreciated. I think they would also be of 
> interest to others on this list who are thinking of trying this 
> method.
>
>  Thanks.
>
>  Olaf Ringdahl
>
>
>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Olaf,

At the studio where I work, our wedding black and
white prints/proofs are created with a fuji frontier
printer; and the clients have been very pleased with
the results.  Any enlargements are made through
www.whcc.com and our customers could not be happier.

When sending the files to print, our black and white
images are desaturated RGB files, not greyscale.  This
produces neutral images.

Don


--- Olaf Ringdahl <o.ringdahl@...> wrote:
> I don't know if there is much interest in
> alternatives to inkjet printing but I am ready to
> try the LightJet route and would like to know if
> anyone out there who has gone that route has any
> advice that might keep me out of trouble. I know
> that LightJet, being a color process, does not
> easily produce truly neutral black and white prints.
> To improve my odds, I would like to start by finding
> a lab that is capable of producing good black and
> white prints, preferably (but not necessarily) in or
> near New York City. If anyone has had good or bad
> experiences with a particular lab or with LightJet
> in general, your comments would be much appreciated.
> I think they would also be of interest to others on
> this list who are thinking of trying this method.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Olaf Ringdahl



	
		
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I also have used whcc.com for some COLOR frontier prints and they are 
quite good! I'm sure some people would be quite happy with with making 
B&W prints with this process but I'm pretty picky about tone and 
crossovers  so for B&W they just don't cut it for me. However there are 
places that do lighjet type B&W prints on TRUE B&W photo paper. If your 
real interest is B&W I would seek out a lab that does their B&W that 
way!

-Jeff

On Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 08:50 PM, D. Hill wrote:

> Olaf,
>
> At the studio where I work, our wedding black and
> white prints/proofs are created with a fuji frontier
> printer; and the clients have been very pleased with
> the results.  Any enlargements are made through
> www.whcc.com and our customers could not be happier.
>
> When sending the files to print, our black and white
> images are desaturated RGB files, not greyscale.  This
> produces neutral images.
>
> Don
>
>
> --- Olaf Ringdahl <o.ringdahl@...> wrote:
>> I don't know if there is much interest in
>> alternatives to inkjet printing but I am ready to
>> try the LightJet route and would like to know if
>> anyone out there who has gone that route has any
>> advice that might keep me out of trouble. I know
>> that LightJet, being a color process, does not
>> easily produce truly neutral black and white prints.
>> To improve my odds, I would like to start by finding
>> a lab that is capable of producing good black and
>> white prints, preferably (but not necessarily) in or
>> near New York City. If anyone has had good or bad
>> experiences with a particular lab or with LightJet
>> in general, your comments would be much appreciated.
>> I think they would also be of interest to others on
>> this list who are thinking of trying this method.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Olaf Ringdahl
>

mpix does "true BW" on Kodak paper:
http://www.mpix.com/

On Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 09:07  PM, Jeff Magidson wrote:

> I also have used whcc.com for some COLOR frontier prints and they are
> quite good! I'm sure some people would be quite happy with with making
> B&W prints with this process but I'm pretty picky about tone and
> crossovers  so for B&W they just don't cut it for me. However there are
> places that do lighjet type B&W prints on TRUE B&W photo paper. If your
> real interest is B&W I would seek out a lab that does their B&W that
> way!
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 08:50 PM, D. Hill wrote:
>
>> Olaf,
>>
>> At the studio where I work, our wedding black and
>> white prints/proofs are created with a fuji frontier
>> printer; and the clients have been very pleased with
>> the results.  Any enlargements are made through
>> www.whcc.com and our customers could not be happier.
>>
>> When sending the files to print, our black and white
>> images are desaturated RGB files, not greyscale.  This
>> produces neutral images.
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>> --- Olaf Ringdahl <o.ringdahl@...> wrote:
>>> I don't know if there is much interest in
>>> alternatives to inkjet printing but I am ready to
>>> try the LightJet route and would like to know if
>>> anyone out there who has gone that route has any
>>> advice that might keep me out of trouble. I know
>>> that LightJet, being a color process, does not
>>> easily produce truly neutral black and white prints.
>>> To improve my odds, I would like to start by finding
>>> a lab that is capable of producing good black and
>>> white prints, preferably (but not necessarily) in or
>>> near New York City. If anyone has had good or bad
>>> experiences with a particular lab or with LightJet
>>> in general, your comments would be much appreciated.
>>> I think they would also be of interest to others on
>>> this list who are thinking of trying this method.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Olaf Ringdahl

Olaf - While I don't have experience with labs in New York City making
LightJet prints, the lab that I use in Massachusetts has done them for me.
I think that there are a number of things you can do to try to get decent
output from this method of printing.  Once you have chosen a lab, you should
be able to get profiles from them that will allow you to see on your
computer (via soft-proofing, etc.) what their output will look like with the
different papers they use with their machine.  It will also be important to
ask if they generally do anything to files that you give them before
printing.  Do they sharpen them?  Do they view them in a particular color
space on a monitor with a particular white point/gamma/calibration?

You could then experiment, having them make a small print or two in order to
see what the differences are between your image on the monitor and their
print.  I have found that the LightJet prints tend to have a shorter range
and steeper contrast than inkjet prints. They seem to lose information above
a white value of 250 and below a black value of 5, so the work that you do
on a particular file to be made into a LightJet print will need to be
different from one that you might edit for inkjet printing.

This surprises me.  I thought that a Lightjet print was in essence a
traditional print in that it is the exposure of photosensitive paper to
light, the only difference being that the light is emitted by lasers rather
than a bulb in an enlarger.  I also thought that the post exposure process
was essentially the same as the wet darkroom (albeit automated).  Given, in
many people¹s estimation, the goal of inkjet printing is to be able to match
the quality of the traditional wet process I would expect a  Lightjet to be
the current state of the art in printing from a digital file and well in
excess of inkjet, both in terms of dynamic range and neutrality.  I would
also be very surprised if a grey scale psd image (left in Gray Gamma 2.2 or
flipped back to Adobe RGB or whatever) produced anything other than a
neutral image ­ it is not as thought the laser needs to use dithered colour
light to produce grey. On this basis one ought to always be pleasantly
surprised by Lightjet prints vs their inkjet equivalents.

From: Stephen Petegorsky <petegorsky@...>

<< I have found that the LightJet prints tend to have a shorter range
and steeper contrast than inkjet prints. They seem to lose information above
a white value of 250 and below a black value of 5, so the work that you do
on a particular file to be made into a LightJet print will need to be
different from one that you might edit for inkjet printing.>>



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve - I don't think I can give you the reasons for it, but the LightJet
prints I've had done are not neutral unless you work to make them that way
after getting the lab's profile.  Perhaps it has something to do with the
paper; traditional darkroom printing paper obviously varies in tone away
from neutral depending on the chemical make-up of its emulsion and the
chemicals in which it is processed.  In terms of the range, the d-max might
be greater that what I get with UT-2 on PhotoRag, but there is compression
of the lowest tones and a loss of information in the highlights earlier than
there would be with inkjet printing.

Hello Stephen,

>In terms of the range, the d-max might be greater that what I get 
>with UT-2 on PhotoRag, but there is compression of the lowest tones 
>and a loss of information in the highlights earlier than
>there would be with inkjet printing.

Wouldn't that depend on what paper they use, or if it's VC, what
filter they dialed in?  Perhaps they could change that if you request
it...

As for a general statement about inkjet contrast, that's hard to nail
down because inkjet papers vary quite a bit in their contrast, similar
to silver papers.  An image that looks great on PR may look more or
less contrasty on another paper.   Unfortunately there's no system of
grading papers so we just have to experiment to find one we like and
then adjust something to match it (paper profiles or whatever).

What if we could walk into Ritz Camera and buy a box of "Wonder-Lumi
Cold Grade 3 Smooth" and "Wonder-Lumi Warmtone Grade 2 Velvet"...

Or how about VC papers, with printers that would shine a certain color
LED on it just before the ink is applied...

Oh well, imagination is free and fun <g>.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton - At least at the lab I use, the LightJet uses color RC paper, and
there are only two or three choices of paper surfaces that they carry.  So
there is no VC filtration; the paper is exposed by laser or led.

All I really meant to say is that it was frustrating for me to find that
files I had printed in my studio as inkjet prints in which you could see a
difference between a 1-2% K and paper white, or in which you could see a
separation between 98% K and 99% K lost those distinctions no matter what I
did to the files that were printed as LightJets.

Best,
Stephen

Mike - Would you be willing to give out the name of the lab you used? It sounds like just the right place for me to start.

Olaf


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There is a lab here in Denver, CO that prints Lightjet to Kodak black 
and white paper. They are true silver prints. The only drawback is they 
only offer them on RC paper and only one paper surface, semi-matte. I 
have not used this specific service but the lab in general is 
excellent. Here is the link.

http://www.reedphoto.com/

Allyen

On Jul 20, 2004, at 6:50 PM, D. Hill wrote:



> --- Olaf Ringdahl <o.ringdahl@...> wrote:
>> I don't know if there is much interest in
>> alternatives to inkjet printing but I am ready to
>> try the LightJet route and would like to know if
>> anyone out there who has gone that route has any
>> advice that might keep me out of trouble. I know
>> that LightJet, being a color process, does not
>> easily produce truly neutral black and white prints.
>> To improve my odds, I would like to start by finding
>> a lab that is capable of producing good black and
>> white prints, preferably (but not necessarily) in or
>> near New York City. If anyone has had good or bad
>> experiences with a particular lab or with LightJet
>> in general, your comments would be much appreciated.
>> I think they would also be of interest to others on
>> this list who are thinking of trying this method.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Olaf Ringdahl

http://www.mpix.com also
Mark

On Jul 21, 2004, at 2:51 PM, Allyen E. Wilson wrote:

> There is a lab here in Denver, CO that prints Lightjet to Kodak black
>  and white paper. They are true silver prints. The only drawback is 
> they
>  only offer them on RC paper and only one paper surface, semi-matte. I
>  have not used this specific service but the lab in general is
>  excellent. Here is the link.
>
> http://www.reedphoto.com/
>
>  Allyen
>
>  On Jul 20, 2004, at 6:50 PM, D. Hill wrote:
>
>
>
>  > --- Olaf Ringdahl <o.ringdahl@...> wrote:
>  >> I don't know if there is much interest in
>  >> alternatives to inkjet printing but I am ready to
>  >> try the LightJet route and would like to know if
>  >> anyone out there who has gone that route has any
>  >> advice that might keep me out of trouble. I know
>  >> that LightJet, being a color process, does not
>  >> easily produce truly neutral black and white prints.
>  >> To improve my odds, I would like to start by finding
>  >> a lab that is capable of producing good black and
>  >> white prints, preferably (but not necessarily) in or
>  >> near New York City. If anyone has had good or bad
>  >> experiences with a particular lab or with LightJet
>  >> in general, your comments would be much appreciated.
>  >> I think they would also be of interest to others on
>  >> this list who are thinking of trying this method.
>  >>
>  >> Thanks.
>  >>
>  >> Olaf Ringdahl
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� 
> AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE� �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Stephen,

>Clayton - At least at the lab I use, the LightJet uses color RC
paper, >and there are only two or three choices of paper surfaces that
they >carry.  So there is no VC filtration; the paper is exposed by
>laser or led.
> 
>All I really meant to say is that it was frustrating for me to find 
>that files I had printed in my studio as inkjet prints in which you 
>could see a difference between a 1-2% K and paper white, or in which 
>you could see a separation between 98% K and 99% K lost those 
>distinctions no matter what I did to the files that were printed as 
>LightJets.

Ok, understood.  Someday we'll look back on these pioneering days of
struggle the same way we now look back on the days of covered wagons
pulled by oxen.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Calypso Imaging has better LightJet prices if you prep your files first by
applying their profile in photoshop and save them as TIFs. But I don't think
they have true monochrome paper. Their output quality and service is first
rate.

www.calypsoinc.com

Scott

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Allyen E. Wilson" <awilson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lightjet for b&w


There is a lab here in Denver, CO that prints Lightjet to Kodak black
and white paper. They are true silver prints. The only drawback is they
only offer them on RC paper and only one paper surface, semi-matte. I
have not used this specific service but the lab in general is
excellent. Here is the link.

http://www.reedphoto.com/

Allyen

On Jul 20, 2004, at 6:50 PM, D. Hill wrote:



> --- Olaf Ringdahl <o.ringdahl@...> wrote:
>> I don't know if there is much interest in
>> alternatives to inkjet printing but I am ready to
>> try the LightJet route and would like to know if
>> anyone out there who has gone that route has any
>> advice that might keep me out of trouble. I know
>> that LightJet, being a color process, does not
>> easily produce truly neutral black and white prints.
>> To improve my odds, I would like to start by finding
>> a lab that is capable of producing good black and
>> white prints, preferably (but not necessarily) in or
>> near New York City. If anyone has had good or bad
>> experiences with a particular lab or with LightJet
>> in general, your comments would be much appreciated.
>> I think they would also be of interest to others on
>> this list who are thinking of trying this method.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Olaf Ringdahl




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I have investigated all the digital BW workflows. My thoughts:

If you go LightJet you are sacrificing longevity. Remember it is 
either a B/W print on color paper, or a B/W print on RC garbage. 
Either way you lose down the road. Also, the paper surfaces distract 
me.

The only two other alternatives that are, IMHO, worth the effort are:

1. Inkjet (Piezo or other) on high-quality paper. I love the look of 
B/W matte prints from inkjet. And they are fairly archival.

2. Have a digital negative made (not an inkjet negative - I found 
them to be of unacceptable quality). Either an imagesetter negative 
(www.atxstudio.com is a good source) or from a LVT or Rhino. These 
can then be printed conventionally in a wet darkroom. Nothing beats 
the look of a fiber silver print.

Rich
www. rcodaphotography.com

Thanks to all of you who responded. I'll follow up on your clues.

For those who wonder why I have chosen to try the "Lightjet route," the answer is that what I want is the "look" that I have always preferred (air-dried glossy, with a neutral tone and a good D-max) combined with the highest practical level of "archival" permanence. Lightjet seems to offer both, while inkjet, it seems to me, at this stage, comes in slightly second best on both counts. I have seen the work of David Fokos, using lightjet with Fuji crytstal archive paper, and the print quality was equal to that of the richest of Ansel Adams' prints. Thus I know how good lightjet prints can be. What holds me back is something that Fokos himself said: "My work is the most difficult thing Calypso prints.each print requires a series of tests." He can afford that. (His prints start at $1,000 and one sold at auction for $10,000.) I can't afford to make a series of tests for each and every print. There is only one way to find out if I can get what I want with a minimum of testing.

I do think lightjet deserves some discussion on this list. The lightjet printer is directly comparable to the inkjet printer. They both take your digital file and at the push of a button they both produce the final print. The question is which print best expresses your original vision and looks the way you really want it to look. I can't answer these questions yet because I haven't yet seen what the lightjet machine can do with one of my own images. I have no choice but to give the lightjet machine a try. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Olaf Ringdahl wrote:

>I do think lightjet deserves some discussion on this list. 
>

It has been discussed before and the only route people seemed to like 
was a company in Germany that has converted a LightJet over to use for 
printing on traditional B&W papers.

If I'm going to "settle" for B&W prints made on color paper, I'll pass 
and keep the control and quality I get from in-house inkjet quad printing.

I see LightJet on color as a way to get B&W prints for people who DON'T 
do their own in-house printing.  If they did, they would either go to 
inkjet and/or still do traditional B&W in the darkroom (in this group 
I'll include the "alternative" processes).




 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

In a message dated 7/23/2004 12:14:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
editor@... writes:

> >I do think lightjet deserves some discussion on this list. 
> >
> 
> It has been discussed before and the only route people seemed to like 
> was a company in Germany that has converted a LightJet over to use for 
> printing on traditional B&W papers.
> 
> If I'm going to "settle" for B&W prints made on color paper, I'll pass 
> and keep the control and quality I get from in-house inkjet quad printing.
> 
> I see LightJet on color as a way to get B&W prints for people who DON'T 
> do their own in-house printing.  If they did, they would either go to 
> inkjet and/or still do traditional B&W in the darkroom (in this group 
> I'll include the "alternative" processes).
> 
Lightjet is certainly a great option and a different look than inkjet. 
Perfect for "david Fokos" type of images"
Davids 36inch prints are hung without plexi or glass and they have a 
beautiful luster like surface. I really thought they where silver prints
until I read his info materials. 
For the original poster, remember that your supplying them RGB  files so you 
will have control over the tint.
I would bet Calypso has profiles for BW output. I have spoken with David 
about this also and I don't think it would take alot of testing to get them dialed 
in on tints you don't like.
Even with Davids prints at exhibit you can see a range of slight tints off 
neutral. 
Easy to see why one would be interested in Lightjet if they have seen David 
Foko's large prints. 8x10 negs help too.
If I thought my images looked better with Lightjet I wouldn't hesitate using 
it. It's just not as complementary to my work as Inkjet.
David got a little bit burned with inkjet and Iris prints several years ago, 
now his lightjet prints are way better. 
Study Davids work and methods, one of the nations hottest Gallery 
Photographers and learn from it. He is not "settling" for BW prints on color paper, he 
has run the gamut of printing techniques. Platinum. Platinum from digital negs 
Before Burkholder, silver and ink prints and now the BEST for him LIGHTJET. And 
his customers love them. This is one photographer I would buy, next time I 
have an extra 5k.
Steven Meyers
http://www.xray-art.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sdmey4@a... wrote:
> David got a little bit burned with inkjet and Iris prints several years ago, 
> now his lightjet prints are way better. 

Steve,

Could you go into a little more detail about David Fokos getting burn by inkjet and Iris 
prints?

Thanks,

John V

If you want truly neutral silver prints from digital files on B&W paper 
then the Polymax process that mpix uses is hard to beat.  See previous 
discussion here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/46199
Now, if they would offer the same process on a fiber base B&W paper I 
would be more tempted to use their service.  The Polymax RC surface is 
actually a quite nice soft luster, but I just don't like the RC base.

On Friday, July 23, 2004, at 03:42  PM, sdmey4@... wrote:

> In a message dated 7/23/2004 12:14:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> editor@p-o-v-image.com writes:
>
>>> I do think lightjet deserves some discussion on this list.
>>>
>>
>> It has been discussed before and the only route people seemed to like
>> was a company in Germany that has converted a LightJet over to use for
>> printing on traditional B&W papers.
>>
>> If I'm going to "settle" for B&W prints made on color paper, I'll pass
>> and keep the control and quality I get from in-house inkjet quad 
>> printing.
>>
>> I see LightJet on color as a way to get B&W prints for people who 
>> DON'T
>> do their own in-house printing.  If they did, they would either go to
>> inkjet and/or still do traditional B&W in the darkroom (in this group
>> I'll include the "alternative" processes).
>>
> Lightjet is certainly a great option and a different look than inkjet.
> Perfect for "david Fokos" type of images"
> Davids 36inch prints are hung without plexi or glass and they have a
> beautiful luster like surface. I really thought they where silver 
> prints
> until I read his info materials.
> For the original poster, remember that your supplying them RGB  files 
> so you
> will have control over the tint.
> I would bet Calypso has profiles for BW output. I have spoken with 
> David
> about this also and I don't think it would take alot of testing to get 
> them dialed
> in on tints you don't like.
> Even with Davids prints at exhibit you can see a range of slight tints 
> off
> neutral.
> Easy to see why one would be interested in Lightjet if they have seen 
> David
> Foko's large prints. 8x10 negs help too.
> If I thought my images looked better with Lightjet I wouldn't hesitate 
> using
> it. It's just not as complementary to my work as Inkjet.
> David got a little bit burned with inkjet and Iris prints several 
> years ago,
> now his lightjet prints are way better.
> Study Davids work and methods, one of the nations hottest Gallery
> Photographers and learn from it. He is not "settling" for BW prints on 
> color paper, he
> has run the gamut of printing techniques. Platinum. Platinum from 
> digital negs
> Before Burkholder, silver and ink prints and now the BEST for him 
> LIGHTJET. And
> his customers love them. This is one photographer I would buy, next 
> time I
> have an extra 5k.
> Steven Meyers
> http://www.xray-art.com
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
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> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
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> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
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> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
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> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
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>
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>
>

> combined with the highest practical level of 
> "archival" permanence. Lightjet seems to offer both, while 
> inkjet, it seems to me, at this stage, comes in slightly second 
> best on both counts. 

What makes you think Lightjet offers greater permanence than inkjet?

tim a

>What makes you think Lightjet offers greater permanence than inkjet?


Whether Lightjet on Fuji Crystal Archive paper will outlast the best pigment ink on the best matte paper, I don't know. Neither comes close to silver gelatin or platinum. But the "look" I want is that of the air-dried glossy silver gelatin print and as far as I know, there is no combination of paper and pigment inks that can give me that look. The only inkjet combination that can give me approximately the look I want is dye ink on fairly glossy paper. And you know what kind of permanence you can expect from that combination. 

The only other way I know of that will give me the look of the air-dried silver gelatin print and that will also allow me to continue working digitally (and I'll never give that up) is Lightjet and Fuji Crystal Archive paper.

So, yes, inkjet has very good permanence, so long as it is pigment ink on matte paper. Everyone who likes that look or can accept it should stick with it.

By the way, the minute I learn that I can have the look I want, and the permanence, using inkjet, count me in.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't know what you permanence criteria are, but isn't Fuji Cristal Archive generally considered to have a 50 year life?
 
As far as the silver permanence is concerned, it seems that the long held beliefs about longevity are under some review at the moment.
 
Tom Baker

Olaf Ringdahl <o.ringdahl@att.net> wrote:
>What makes you think Lightjet offers greater permanence than inkjet?


Whether Lightjet on Fuji Crystal Archive paper will outlast the best pigment ink on the best matte paper, I don't know. Neither comes close to silver gelatin or platinum. But the "look" I want is that of the air-dried glossy silver gelatin print and as far as I know, there is no combination of paper and pigment inks that can give me that look. The only inkjet combination that can give me approximately the look I want is dye ink on fairly glossy paper. And you know what kind of permanence you can expect from that combination. 

The only other way I know of that will give me the look of the air-dried silver gelatin print and that will also allow me to continue working digitally (and I'll never give that up) is Lightjet and Fuji Crystal Archive paper.

So, yes, inkjet has very good permanence, so long as it is pigment ink on matte paper. Everyone who likes that look or can accept it should stick with it.

By the way, the minute I learn that I can have the look I want, and the permanence, using inkjet, count me in.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/23/2004 1:03:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jvlist@... writes:

> Could you go into a little more detail about David Fokos getting burn by 
> inkjet and Iris 
> prints?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John V
> Well I guess it was his call, color shifts probably in a short time frame. 
Most likely they where Iris dye prints made on uncoated Sumerset. If you haven't 
followed his work  since the platinum prints from digital negs you would 
never know he sold large 36inch Iris prints. He told me he recalled the ones he 
could or was uncomfortable with, and replaced with Lightjets if the buyer 
wanted.
Steve M.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Steve for the info!


sdmey4@a... wrote:

> Well I guess it was his call, color shifts probably in a short time frame. 
> Most likely they where Iris dye prints made on uncoated Sumerset. If you haven't 
> followed his work  since the platinum prints from digital negs you would 
> never know he sold large 36inch Iris prints. He told me he recalled the ones he 
> could or was uncomfortable with, and replaced with Lightjets if the buyer 
> wanted.