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2004-07-31 by Antonis
Where do things stand these days with coating prints without the use of spray? Any favorite liquids? Anything that is self-leveling and can be used with a brush (as opposed to coating rods)? Any luck with the Lyson product sold in cans rather than aerosols?.... Paul?... Robert?... anyone else?..... TIA Antonis
2004-07-31 by Paul Roark
PremierArt Print Shield is my favorite for taking care of the bronzing on Epson Premier Semigloss & Ilford Smooth Pearl papers. Lascaux Fixativ (the Rohm & Haas B72 formula) is my choice for matte prints because it appears to lower the dmax less. In a recent comparison test, a lightly sprayed (3 light coats) EEM-Eboni 100% black patch dropped from 1.66 to 1.64 with Lascaux, but dropped to 1.59 with Print Shield. Paul www.PaulRoark.com _______________________________
-----Original Message----- From: Antonis [mailto:antonisphoto@...] Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 12:43 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] non-spray coatings? Where do things stand these days with coating prints without the use of spray? Any favorite liquids? Anything that is self-leveling and can be used with a brush (as opposed to coating rods)? Any luck with the Lyson product sold in cans rather than aerosols?.... Paul?... Robert?... anyone else?..... TIA Antonis Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2004-08-01 by Tom OConnell
Paul- I just had some Epson UltraSmooth sprayed with laquer and they did a strip test sheet for me. With no spray, 1 coat, 2 coats and 3 coats. I didn't bother to check them on the densitometer because the results were so obvious (but I would be happy to report the numbers if they would be helpful for you). The single coat reduced the dmax significantly, 2 coats even more and 3 coats started coming back, but the appearance was horrible on the surface and the whole image lost tonality with sharply increased contrast. I was very interested in the work that Robert Morrison was doing about a year ago...he sounded like he was very near to making a viable commericial product (and the prints were stunning) but he seemed to be dropping it because one of the paper companies was near to announcing a product that "would obsolete" his coating product...not sure but think he was talking about the Seagull offering that never happened. Have you heard anything on any of this? cheers, Tom O'Connell
2004-08-01 by Paul Roark
Antonis, Sorry, I missed the "NON" in non-spray coatings. I abandoned the Hydrocote experiments about a year ago. I'm not sure I'll go back to that route. With the Mayer (wire-wound) rod I was not able to scale up well. The overall procedure just was not that easy or consistent. I would also have liked some third party source for the archival characteristics of the material. On the other hand, I pulled a couple 8x10 samples out today to take to the workshop, and I must say the finish looks nice. Paul www.PaulRoark.com _____________
-----Original Message----- From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 3:56 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Digital BW] non-spray coatings? PremierArt Print Shield is my favorite for taking care of the bronzing on Epson Premier Semigloss & Ilford Smooth Pearl papers. Lascaux Fixativ (the Rohm & Haas B72 formula) is my choice for matte prints because it appears to lower the dmax less. In a recent comparison test, a lightly sprayed (3 light coats) EEM-Eboni 100% black patch dropped from 1.66 to 1.64 with Lascaux, but dropped to 1.59 with Print Shield. Paul www.PaulRoark.com _______________________________ -----Original Message----- From: Antonis [mailto:antonisphoto@...] Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 12:43 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] non-spray coatings? Where do things stand these days with coating prints without the use of spray? Any favorite liquids? Anything that is self-leveling and can be used with a brush (as opposed to coating rods)? Any luck with the Lyson product sold in cans rather than aerosols?.... Paul?... Robert?... anyone else?..... TIA Antonis Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2004-08-01 by Antonis
Paul, thanks for your replies. I am trying to get away from spraying because of the obvious environmental and health factors. Spray coating is still a decent quick-fix for small prints, but as I try to go up to sizes in the order of 44" wide, I'd like something I can roll or brush on. We all went through a lot of craziness over this in years past (anyone who cares can dig through the archives here) and no easy solution was arrived at. Back then, Robert was working up a formulation that could have been a viable commercial product but gave up in the end because he couldn't compete with pricing and Golden's formulae (if I remember well) were close enough to his ideas. I'll see if I can get him to offer some ...memoirs here - or at least his conclusions. The rods - as you say - don't scale up well and they take some getting used to. Then there is the issue of textures, compatibility with various media and inks, dust that can stick etc. Currently, the contenders fall into 2 categories: water based and solvent based. Also, generally, canvas has different requirements than paper. At the top of the list, I seem to have: http://www.clearstarcorp.com/clearshield.asp http://www.bulldogproducts.com/coating/bulldogcoating.htm http://www.goldenpaints.com/products/varnish/index.php So the practical question is if any of this has worked for people in real world use, when many prints are involved or larger sizes have to be covered. We've all done wonderful tests in little letter size sheets or even a bit larger. But how about a whole portfolio, or show?... Antonis --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > Antonis, > > Sorry, I missed the "NON" in non-spray coatings. > > I abandoned the Hydrocote experiments about a year ago. I'm not sure I'll > go back to that route. With the Mayer (wire-wound) rod I was not able to > scale up well. The overall procedure just was not that easy or consistent. > I would also have liked some third party source for the archival > characteristics of the material. > > On the other hand, I pulled a couple 8x10 samples out today to take to the > workshop, and I must say the finish looks nice. > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com
2004-08-01 by Antonis
I left one out of the list: http://www.lyson.com/includes/frames.html click on Printguard Spray & Laquers And, of course, for anyone who hasn't already seen the work of Stephen Livick on the subject, this is worth exploring: http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg1.htm Antonis
> > At the top of the list, I seem to have: > > http://www.clearstarcorp.com/clearshield.asp > > http://www.bulldogproducts.com/coating/bulldogcoating.htm > > http://www.goldenpaints.com/products/varnish/index.php
2004-08-02 by J Vee
> For all my prints, to include up to 48² wide, I far prefer the liquid ClearJet > FA which is solvent based and smells terrible. I use the spray set up > recommended here and have the mask with outside air blown into it. J Vee > > > RE: > ³Currently, the contenders fall into 2 categories: > water based and solvent based. > Also, generally, canvas has different requirements > than paper. > > At the top of the list, I seem to have: > > http://www.clearstarcorp.com/clearshield.asp > > http://www.bulldogproducts.com/coating/bulldogcoating.htm > > http://www.goldenpaints.com/products/varnish/index.php² [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-08-02 by Antonis
Thanks. It's beginning to look like the solvent-based coats is the way to g= o in most cases (unless someone uses solvent-based inks). I'd hate to have to spray that stuff though.... Antonis --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, J Vee <j.vee@g...> wro= te: > > For all my prints, to include up to 48² wide, I far prefer the liquid C= learJet > > FA which is solvent based and smells terrible. I use the spray set up > > recommended here and have the mask with outside air blown into it. J V= ee
2004-08-04 by nick_h_nugent
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Antonis" <antonisphoto@y...> wrote: > Thanks. It's beginning to look like the solvent-based coats is the > way to go in most cases (unless someone uses solvent-based inks). > I'd hate to have to spray that stuff though.... I've been coating my prints for probably about two years now and I found that water-based coating works best for me, especially on matte papers. I used to use an airbrush to apply thinned down Liquitex acrylic gloss medium & varnish but lately I found that brushing on is a lot easier. An initial coat of very diluted acrylic using a roller to protect the fragile matte surface (this coat will dry slightly unevenly with little increase in dmax), and a second coat of acrylic thinned down just enough so brush marks will disappear. On this second coat you can handle roughly without worrying that some of the ink in lighter area might get rubbed off. The secret is in the initial coat. I can consistently get extremely smooth and even coatings without much hassle. Of course I always compare mine to the standard print which Paul Roark had sent me a while ago (Thanks, Paul, for the beautiful Grand Teton print which still serves as a reference in my digital darkroom, and you can see how I'm still crazy about coating, but no more airbrush, and no smoothing rods either). Most of the time I found these two coats are sufficient. You can apply an additional coat of matte acrylic or Dorland Wax Medium to reduce the sheen and to prevent stacked prints from sticking to each other. For the Hawk Mountain Merlin whose uncoated dmax is only 1.43, the coatings brought it to 2.12. I calculated this dmax from the LAB lightness value of 6.8 for the darkest black patch. I hope I did the math right. The change in dmax is so great that I have to tweak the quadtone curves and coat the printer targets prior to creating profiles. --nick
2004-08-06 by Antonis
Here is what Robert Morrison had to say about all this (I'm posting his email to me with his permission): ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think there will be any difference for canvas between Bulldog, ClearJet and Lyson. I believe Lyson is the only one that was tested for archival issues...it supposedly doubles the life expectancy of dye based prints, it has a UV absorber... I doubt it will make much of any difference for pigment based prints because its not UV that kills them...just visible light. Using the water-based acrylic polymers I found some improvement for black pigments in a daylight fade test... but it didn't matter whether the polymer have UV absorbers or not...its probably just the act of protecting the ink/pigments from air that resulted in the improvement. None of the solvent based products will work on matte-based papers...don't waste your time. Hydrocote is the best of the over-the-counter products for coating. I made a custom mix of polymers that worked slightly better...but it required formulation that the average user without mixing equipment won't be able to do. The difference was marginal. The best way to coat the matte prints is with a #30 meyer rod which you can get from http://www.rdspecialties.com/Page.asp?Script=4 Robert ---------------------------------- Robert Morrison robert@... www.studiotheia.com --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Antonis" <antonisphoto@y...> wrote: .... > We all went through a lot of craziness over this in years past > (anyone who cares can dig through the archives here) and no > easy solution was arrived at. Back then, Robert was working up > a formulation that could have been a viable commercial > product but gave up in the end because he couldn't compete > with pricing and Golden's formulae (if I remember well) were > close enough to his ideas. I'll see if I can get him to offer some > ...memoirs here - or at least his conclusions. > > The rods - as you say - don't scale up well and they take some > getting used to. Then there is the issue of textures, compatibility > with various media and inks, dust that can stick etc. > > Currently, the contenders fall into 2 categories: > water based and solvent based. > Also, generally, canvas has different requirements > than paper. ......... > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" > <paul.roark@v...> wrote: .....
> > I abandoned the Hydrocote experiments about a year ago. I'm not sure I'll > > go back to that route. With the Mayer (wire-wound) rod I was not able to > > scale up well. The overall procedure just was not that easy or consistent. > > I would also have liked some third party source for the archival > > characteristics of the material. > > > > On the other hand, I pulled a couple 8x10 samples out today to take to the > > workshop, and I must say the finish looks nice. > > > > Paul > > www.PaulRoark.com
2004-08-06 by J Vee
I am puzzled by this statement. Spraying solvent based ClearJet FA works great on matte prints for me, although I have to admit I was unable to satisfactorily coat them with any other means of application. J Vee On 8/6/04 12:37 PM, "Antonis" <antonisphoto@...> wrote: > > None of the solvent based products will work on matte-based > papers...don't waste your time. Hydrocote is the best of the over-the-counter products for coating. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-08-06 by lipshurt2002
To check, I tested Print sheild on the same image on luminos radiant white, and museo. I think it changed the contrast so much that it they were ruined. The darks were darker and muddied. Then I couldnt remember what they looked like before hand so I printed another, and It is fine, so I conclude that print shield changes the matte print a lot. Maybe that is why he says dont waste your time. DM --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, J Vee <j.vee@g...> wrote:
> I am puzzled by this statement. Spraying solvent based ClearJet FA works > great on matte prints for me, although I have to admit I was unable to > satisfactorily coat them with any other means of application. J Vee > > On 8/6/04 12:37 PM, "Antonis" <antonisphoto@y...> wrote: > > > > None of the solvent based products will work on matte-based > > papers...don't waste your time. Hydrocote is the best of the > over-the-counter products for coating. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-08-07 by Antonis
I think the reference in Robert's statement was to coating by means other than spray. That means rod or brush, either of which may cause the silica in the (matte) inkjet paper to lift and produce a cloudy film within the (solvent-based) coating. Any spray is likely to work as far as just putting a coating down. The problem is once you get past, say, 13x19 or more than a couple of prints you get all the issues of overspray, propellants etc. Liquid coats have their own drawbacks (smell, dust attraction etc) but they are very efficiently applied if they can be rolled on. In the end, they may be better at controlling bronzing for glossy papers with the Ultra- C or T inks by laying a substantial film over the image. Antonis --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, J Vee <j.vee@g...> wrote:
> I am puzzled by this statement. Spraying solvent based ClearJet FA works > great on matte prints for me, although I have to admit I was unable to > satisfactorily coat them with any other means of application. J Vee > > On 8/6/04 12:37 PM, "Antonis" <antonisphoto@y...> wrote: > > > > None of the solvent based products will work on matte-based > > papers...don't waste your time. Hydrocote is the best of the > over-the-counter products for coating. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]