Digital BW, The Print

Mike, I also am moving up from a 1280 but am debating between the 7600 and the 4000. What has been your experience in print quality and reliability with the 7600. Most ( 70%)_ of my fine art work is 16x20 Another 25 % would be 24: wide by xx. the remaining 10% over 24" wide. I believe the 9600 could not be economically justified but am hovering between the 4000 and the 7600. Any comments on your experience would be most appreciated.
Alan Zimmerman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael B. Askew 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:05 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printer recommendations, please


  Well, there is a significant difference between the 1280 and the 
  2200.  The inks in the 2200 are the Ultrachrome pigmented inks, not 
  the older epson inks which change color under different lighting 
  (metamorism).  In addition, with the 2200, you get both a black ink, 
  and a light grey ink, giving you much better tone control of both 
  color and greyscale images.  If you plan to print greyscale images, 
  or slightly toned images, you should definitely go the 2200 route.

  Now, if you can afford it, and want to get up to 16x20 prints, the 
  state of the art printer on the market today is the Epson 4000.  
  With the 2200, you have to choose between matte black and photo 
  black inks.  If you're printing on glossy or semi gloss paper, you 
  would use the photo black.  On matte, the matte black ink.  You can 
  use either one for either paper, but the profiles cover one or the 
  other and you just don't get such deep blacks with the photo black 
  ink on matte paper, but it prints and you might not notice unless 
  you're a perfectionist, or comparing prints side by side.  I notice 
  the difference, but you can make it work.  On the 4000, it holds 
  both the matte black and the photo black ink, solving that choice 
  problem.  It knows by the paper you choose which ink to use.

  If I were getting a new printer today, I'd do the 4000.  I have a 
  7600 and might add the 4000 just so I don't have to switch inks and 
  could print on other papers.  But on the other hand, I really like 
  the matte papers.  Took me a while to get used to them, but now I'm 
  converted.

  If I couldn't afford the 4000 (it's quite expensive at 1795), I'd do 
  the 2200.  If I couldn't afford the 2200, I'd wait till I could.

  Mike Askew
  www.michaelbaskew.com









  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy Ryan" 
  <kt.ryan@v...> wrote:
  > Good morning....
  > 
  > I have been trying to follow the discussions here as a way of 
  learning more about B&W digital printing. I admit I'm pretty much 
  lost on lots of the technical details regarding inks, curves, QTR, 
  RIP and the other acronyms floating around. But I'm learning!
  > 
  > I currently have an Epson RX500 all-in-one that I use to print my 
  photos. They are pretty good but I want better and bigger. I would 
  like to print up to 11x14 which is what my preferred size was in the 
  wet darkroom. And I would like to get rid of, or at least control, 
  the slight color cast I get on the RX500 prints.
  > 
  > I'm looking at the Epson 1280 and 2200; they both print the size I 
  want and I can get the MIS inks for them, too. The price difference 
  has me leaning toward the 1280 but if there is significant 
  improvement by going with the 2200, I would consider that option.
  > 
  > Any advice you have to offer will be appreciated.
  > 
  > Kathy
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
      
    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alan,

I've had the 7600 for about a year and a half, I think, and I love 
it.  I print b/w, toned, and color, and have printed color up to 
24x30 with wonderful results.  I love the ability to slightly tone 
black and white prints with a hue and saturation layer (hue about 
40, sat between 5 and 25, depending on intensity), and have sold 
portraits and other prints from this printer.  The resolution is 
amazing.  I both scan 4x5's (on an Epson 4870, just upgraded from 
the 2450), and print from my Nikon D100 files.  I've printed 
portraits from the D100 in a sepia tone up to 24x30 also, and 
they're stunning.  I have had no trouble with the heads, though on 
occasion I do have to do the alignment sequence, which is very easy, 
it just takes about an hour to do the several runs it takes to get 
them aligned.  I use papers from 8x10 sheet up to 24x300 (I think) 
roll paper, and have used enhanced matte, watercolor paper, canvas 
(wonderful in color portraits), semi gloss, and glossy papers.  You 
do have to be careful with glossy papers, some of them don't hold 
the pigment very well.  I could tell you more about that later if 
you're interested.

I'm printing an exhibit of a recent trip to Tuscany, and have 
decided to print them all digitally (I also print traditionally in 
my darkroom) at 16x20 on 22x28 paper (24x29 cut down), and frame 
them unmounted against the glass.  So far they look fantastic, and 
I'm testing people to see if they can tell the digital from the 
darkroom prints.  Most people cannot tell when they are behind glass.

I have tried Roy's QTR driver as well, and love the tones I can get, 
but so far I can get higher resolution with the microweave setting 
on the 7600 driver.  Roy is working on that aspect.

I also tried some knockoff inks to save money from Epson's inks, and 
it was a waste of money.  I went back to the Epson inks and am glad 
I did.  

My only complaint is not having both photo black and matte black 
inks in residence as the 4000 does.  You can change the inks, but it 
runs a cleaning sequence, and drinks a lot of ink to do that.  I 
just use the matte black ink for everything, and if I print on epson 
semigloss (I don't much anymore) then I use the enhanced matte or 
the ultra smooth paper settings.  It seems to work just fine.

That's about all I can think of.  Let me know if I missed anything.  
I thought about going to the 9600 too, but I can't justify the 
cost.  A 24x30 print is really big.  I also print panoramics at 
20x40 and that's big enough.  David Gibson prints like 24x60, so I 
could do that, but haven't yet.  That's a lot of ink and paper.

Mike.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Alan 
Zimmerman" <azimmerman1@c...> wrote:
> Mike, I also am moving up from a 1280 but am debating between the 
7600 and the 4000. What has been your experience in print quality 
and reliability with the 7600. Most ( 70%)_ of my fine art work is 
16x20 Another 25 % would be 24: wide by xx. the remaining 10% over 
24" wide. I believe the 9600 could not be economically justified but 
am hovering between the 4000 and the 7600. Any comments on your 
experience would be most appreciated.
> Alan Zimmerman
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Michael B. Askew 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:05 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printer recommendations, please
> 
> 
>   Well, there is a significant difference between the 1280 and the 
>   2200.  The inks in the 2200 are the Ultrachrome pigmented inks, 
not 
>   the older epson inks which change color under different lighting 
>   (metamorism).  In addition, with the 2200, you get both a black 
ink, 
>   and a light grey ink, giving you much better tone control of 
both 
>   color and greyscale images.  If you plan to print greyscale 
images, 
>   or slightly toned images, you should definitely go the 2200 
route.
> 
>   Now, if you can afford it, and want to get up to 16x20 prints, 
the 
>   state of the art printer on the market today is the Epson 4000.  
>   With the 2200, you have to choose between matte black and photo 
>   black inks.  If you're printing on glossy or semi gloss paper, 
you 
>   would use the photo black.  On matte, the matte black ink.  You 
can 
>   use either one for either paper, but the profiles cover one or 
the 
>   other and you just don't get such deep blacks with the photo 
black 
>   ink on matte paper, but it prints and you might not notice 
unless 
>   you're a perfectionist, or comparing prints side by side.  I 
notice 
>   the difference, but you can make it work.  On the 4000, it holds 
>   both the matte black and the photo black ink, solving that 
choice 
>   problem.  It knows by the paper you choose which ink to use.
> 
>   If I were getting a new printer today, I'd do the 4000.  I have 
a 
>   7600 and might add the 4000 just so I don't have to switch inks 
and 
>   could print on other papers.  But on the other hand, I really 
like 
>   the matte papers.  Took me a while to get used to them, but now 
I'm 
>   converted.
> 
>   If I couldn't afford the 4000 (it's quite expensive at 1795), 
I'd do 
>   the 2200.  If I couldn't afford the 2200, I'd wait till I could.
> 
>   Mike Askew
>   www.michaelbaskew.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy 
Ryan" 
>   <kt.ryan@v...> wrote:
>   > Good morning....
>   > 
>   > I have been trying to follow the discussions here as a way of 
>   learning more about B&W digital printing. I admit I'm pretty 
much 
>   lost on lots of the technical details regarding inks, curves, 
QTR, 
>   RIP and the other acronyms floating around. But I'm learning!
>   > 
>   > I currently have an Epson RX500 all-in-one that I use to print 
my 
>   photos. They are pretty good but I want better and bigger. I 
would 
>   like to print up to 11x14 which is what my preferred size was in 
the 
>   wet darkroom. And I would like to get rid of, or at least 
control, 
>   the slight color cast I get on the RX500 prints.
>   > 
>   > I'm looking at the Epson 1280 and 2200; they both print the 
size I 
>   want and I can get the MIS inks for them, too. The price 
difference 
>   has me leaning toward the 1280 but if there is significant 
>   improvement by going with the 2200, I would consider that option.
>   > 
>   > Any advice you have to offer will be appreciated.
>   > 
>   > Kathy
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from the membership without notice.
>   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts 
may be removed from the membership.
>   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" 
in the Files section:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
>   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT 
LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR 
OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF 
DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) 
UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; 
(iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE 
DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
>       
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms 
of Service. 

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> . . . but to make those curves
>work, you need to develop transfer curves for each curve/paper
>combo . . . .

Just to clarify, in case developing transfer curves to each paper/curve
combination sounds intimidating to someone just starting out as it certainly
would to me, the MIS web site has curves for some readily available paper
and MIS ink combinations. As long as you use one of those papers you don't
need to develop your own.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "m87507" <m87507@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 12:08 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printer recommendations, please


If you can find an Epson 1160 (watch the lists), get it, and start
with MIS grayscale inks along with Moab or Red river paper; you will
be thrilled with the results, but there is a learning curve to
master the system. (Hint; start with black-only, then the Epson
driver, then move to the Roark curves...but to make those curves
work, you need to develop transfer curves for each curve/paper
combo.) I would vote then for the 1280 as a second printer...you can
then decide to make your 1160 color and black-only, or the 1280 as
that.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "annekersaway"
<annekersaway@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy Ryan"
> <kt.ryan@v...> wrote:
> > I currently have an Epson RX500 all-in-one that I use to print
my
> photos. They are pretty good but I want better and bigger. I would
> like to print up to 11x14 which is what my preferred size was in
the
> wet darkroom. And I would like to get rid of, or at least control,
> the slight color cast I get on the RX500 prints.
>
> If I were you (and I'm in the same boat - I want a large format
> printer), I'd wait.
>
> Epson's done quite a bit in the new R800 printer.  It begs for a
> wide carriage version.  With the recent price cuts on the 1280,
and
> Christmas buying season fast approaching, I think a new printer is
> in the wings.  I don't think the 4000 is it.
>
> I have NO inside information to base this speculation on.  Just an
> educate guess on my part.
>
> Until then, work on color management to clear up the color cast in
> the RX500.  That's a good printer (same print engine as the rest
of
> the R printers, IIRC).  When was the last time you profiled your
> monitor?  Does your printer profile match your inks and papers
> you're using?  You'll be fighting the same battle with any
printer,
> so might as well practice on the RX500 while you wait for the next
> generation large format home inkjet.
>
> Anne




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael B.
Askew" <mbaskew@y...> wrote:
> Alan,
> 
> I've had the 7600 for about a year and a half, I think, and I love 
> it.  I print b/w, toned, and color, and have printed color up to 
> 24x30 with wonderful results.  I love the ability to slightly tone 
> black and white prints with a hue and saturation layer (hue about 
> 40, sat between 5 and 25, depending on intensity), and have sold 
> portraits and other prints from this printer.  

Snippage of great stuff... 
> >   If I couldn't afford the 4000 (it's quite expensive at 1795), 
> I'd do 
> >   the 2200.  If I couldn't afford the 2200, I'd wait till I could.
> > 
> >   Mike Askew
> >   www.michaelbaskew.com
> > 
Mike, I didn't ask the original question but I certainly thank you for
this great reply.  I am considering both the 4000 and the 7600, and
the info you have given here is very helpful. Thanks again.

Don in Broken Arrow