Digital BW, The Print

I am new to the group and forgive me if I am doing this incorrectly, 
and, if I am being lazy in just asking what you all probably know 
quite well...or, maybe you all are looking for the better solution - 
which is what this group is all about.

I have a Canon 10D and I typically shoot in jpeg, but I am about to 
switch over to RAW (memory backup concerns). Anyhow, I have been 
converting the image under mode from RGB to grayscale in photoshop 
and then usually back to RGB for adjusting the color of a nice black 
and white. When I print them, the images seem horribly soft and the 
gradation is not satisfactory.

Can someone point me to some articles or instructions on how to get 
great results from a digital file?

Best,
Mike Shampanier
http://www.MikeThePhotographer.com
Mike@...

Hello Mike,

This is the procedure I use for conversion to BW:

1. Open it and convert it to Adobe RGB 1998 and at that point 
create a duplicate image to show on the screen at the same time. 
Move them around so you can see both images at the same time. Do all 
of your final work on the copy image and rename it according to your 
whim at the time. Convert the copy now to grayscale.

2. Using the original image, on the palette bar at the top right 
select channels which will show 4 channels---Red Green Blue and the 
composite RGB. If you left-click on the right panel of each color an 
eye will appear on the left of the panel for that color and will 
show how the image would look if only that color was used. This will 
show up on the actual image as BW on the original image.

3. You may find that only one channel will give you the effect that 
you desire or you may have to combine two channels or even all three 
in different opacities and fills.

4. On the original image as you choose a channel to use, place the 
pointer on the original image and Shift-A which will give a dotted 
line around the entire image. Then Shift-C which will copy that 
image channel into the clipboard. Left click on the copy image and 
Shift-V, which will transfer the channel from the clipboard to the 
copy image. Do this with the other channels as needed. 

5. When the channels you want have been copied, close the original 
image without saving any changes to it. That image is still a virgin 
image in case you goof up on this and other attempts to work it up 
in BW.

6. Now all work is done on the copy image and it is the one that 
will be saved with a different name than the original. Left-click on 
the layers tab on the palette bar and you will have layers for each 
channel you copied plus one called background. At this point I 
usually rename them with the name of the channel I copied (Red or 
Green or Blue). In the case of the Rust In Peace truck, I used the 
Green and Blue channels. I copy channels from the top down so my 
Layer 1 is renamed Green and Layer 2 is renamed Blue. To rename them 
Double-Left-click on the words Layer 1 for the first layer and type 
in the name of the channel copied from the original image. In my 
case it was Green and the other one was Blue. Now you have three 
layers ---Green Blue Background. Eyes should be on the left side of 
all the channels.

7. Now comes the magic!!!!! You notice the channels are stacked on 
top of each other Blue over Green over Background. and up on the 
upper portion of the channel window you have two sections 
called "Opacity" and Fill" in percentages starting with 100%. Left-
click and hold on the layer that is the lightest (Green) and slide 
it up to the same level as the darkest (Blue) and release. You now 
have layers names of Green Blue and Background. I do this so the 
lightest layer is on top so the darker portions can start showing 
through as I lower the opacity of the top layer a little at a time.

8. It suited my aye at 61% for the Green opacity. You can do the 
same for the Blue layer, but if you do; left click on the eye on the 
Green layer so you can see the effect of Blue on Background; then 
click on Green eye again to see the combined effect on all three 
layers. Experiment till it suits your eye and desired effect. 

9. Then click on Layer>Flatten image and now you have used channels 
mixed to your liking.

10. Now set up your Proof. View>Proof Setup>whatever your choice for 
proofing is that gets equality between the monitor and printed 
image. A good way to determine your proof is to take an image you 
have already worked up and make a straight print from it without any 
further manipulation and compare it to the monitor. If the print is 
darker or lighter than the monitor image the same process applies 
for correction and proof profiling. With dried image in hand and 
well lit compare it carefully to the monitor image. 

11. This is the process to determine the correct proof setup for you 
final printing of any image you work up. This will change if you 
change inks or paper.

12. View>Proof Setup>Single left click on whatever is showing in the 
Profile selection. This will bring up a menu of all proof profiles 
on your computer that Photoshop uses. Start at the top and carefully 
compare each one with the printed image making sure the 
box "Preserve Color Numbers is Checked" if it is available. 
Sometimes it won't be. When you select one from the list the list 
goes away but the selection is highlighted in the profile selection. 
Simply arrow-down on the keyboard till one of the examples does 
match the finished and dried print you made for this image. Take 
your time and preferably do this in a darkened room so ambient light 
won't sway your decision. That way when you print in a lighted room 
you won't be swayed by the brighter light and think something is 
wrong. Save your choice with any name you can easily associate with 
the paper choice and inks used so you can simply use it for all 
images you print on that paper and with that inkset.

13. Print and enjoy the fruits of your labor, or discard and start 
all over again. That's part of the learning process. It isn't cut 
and dry--it's creative---it's fun---it's disheartening--it's 
whatever it is--but it's photography at it's most challenging and 
rewarding when it all comes together with the photographer.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" 
<shampanier@y...> wrote:
> I am new to the group and forgive me if I am doing this 
incorrectly, 
> and, if I am being lazy in just asking what you all probably know 
> quite well...or, maybe you all are looking for the better 
solution - 
> which is what this group is all about.
> 
> I have a Canon 10D and I typically shoot in jpeg, but I am about 
to 
> switch over to RAW (memory backup concerns). Anyhow, I have been 
> converting the image under mode from RGB to grayscale in photoshop 
> and then usually back to RGB for adjusting the color of a nice 
black 
> and white. When I print them, the images seem horribly soft and 
the 
> gradation is not satisfactory.
> 
> Can someone point me to some articles or instructions on how to 
get 

> great results from a digital file?
> 
> Best,
> Mike Shampanier
> http://www.MikeThePhotographer.com
> Mike@M...

Mike,

Have a look at some of the free Photoshop action available at The
Lights Right website. You may find what you need.

http://www.thelightsright.com/DigitalDarkroom/PhotoshopTools.htm

Cheers,
Andre

Mike,

You can convert to b/w the way Johnny Eades described by extracting
the channels into layers and use opacity to blend them,
you can also use the channel mixer adjustment and click the monochrome
checkbox.
Or you can use the hue/saturation to desaturate, maybe click colorize
to get a tone. 
Or you can use a gradient mask. 
Or you can use Image/Calculations and mix 2 channels using blending
modes and opacity.
Or you can convert to grayscale in mode.
Or you can use the channels pallet and select one that looks good and
delete the other 2.
Probably more ways too.

Basically there are a ton of ways to make a grayscale image. It's just
a metter of finding the one that works best for you and for the image.
Alot of these techniques can be done in layer adjustments as well so
you still have the original layer, and also can be combined even. Some
methods work better for different images, some show more noise than
others. 

As for the two problems you mention, gradients and softness, it's hard
to tell, are the images sharp before the conversion and soft on screen
after? Are they soft on screen at all before you print? What
resolution, printer/settings and paper/settings are you using to
print? One thing I wonder about converting to gray from an 8 bit jpg
file, is how much info is being discarded along with the color. Is it
enough to posterize a gradient?  Would converting to gray from a
higher bit depth RAW file result in a better image with better grads?
Are you sharpening your images before printing with the unsharp mask
filter? Alot of variables to consider I know, alot of times it may
just take expierimenting with different methods of striving for the
same result to get something that works better.

As for links, there are some techniques here:
http://www.outbackphoto.com/content/technique.html

Josh Freeman




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mike"
<shampanier@y...> wrote:

> I am new to the group and forgive me if I am doing this incorrectly, 
> and, if I am being lazy in just asking what you all probably know 
> quite well...or, maybe you all are looking for the better solution - 
> which is what this group is all about.
> 
> I have a Canon 10D and I typically shoot in jpeg, but I am about to 
> switch over to RAW (memory backup concerns). Anyhow, I have been 
> converting the image under mode from RGB to grayscale in photoshop 
> and then usually back to RGB for adjusting the color of a nice black 
> and white. When I print them, the images seem horribly soft and the 
> gradation is not satisfactory.
> 
> Can someone point me to some articles or instructions on how to get 
> great results from a digital file?
> 
> Best,
> Mike Shampanier
> http://www.MikeThePhotographer.com
> Mike@M...

Mike:
Conversion from RGB to Grayscale mode is probably the least effective
(qualitywise) way to do this.
A number of methods are much better and give significantly better
control over tonal values.
Many folks like the channel mixer. I've been using Convert To BW Pro
from the Imaging Factory
http://www.theimagingfactory.com/

Russell Brown also has a very nice procedure on his website
www.russellbrown.com

and Fred Miranda has a nice converter.

Hope this helps

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike [mailto:shampanier@...] 
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 12:55 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Basics of Converting from Digital to B&W for
quality results

I am new to the group and forgive me if I am doing this incorrectly, 
and, if I am being lazy in just asking what you all probably know 
quite well...or, maybe you all are looking for the better solution - 
which is what this group is all about.

I have a Canon 10D and I typically shoot in jpeg, but I am about to 
switch over to RAW (memory backup concerns). Anyhow, I have been 
converting the image under mode from RGB to grayscale in photoshop 
and then usually back to RGB for adjusting the color of a nice black 
and white. When I print them, the images seem horribly soft and the 
gradation is not satisfactory.

Can someone point me to some articles or instructions on how to get 
great results from a digital file?

Best,
Mike Shampanier
http://www.MikeThePhotographer.com
Mike@...





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> From: Stan Shire [mailto:stan@...]
>
> Conversion from RGB to Grayscale mode is probably the least effective
> (qualitywise) way to do this.
> A number of methods are much better and give significantly better
> control over tonal values.
> Many folks like the channel mixer. I've been using Convert To BW Pro
> from the Imaging Factory
> http://www.theimagingfactory.com/
>
> Russell Brown also has a very nice procedure on his website
> www.russellbrown.com
>
> and Fred Miranda has a nice converter.

The real point is that, whatever tool you use, there is no fixed setting
that works for all pictures. Different pictures need different conversions,
depending upon the colors of things, and what needs to be contrasted.
Sometimes, I even layer two different versions, and then hand-combine them.
For instance in:

http://www.pbase.com/image/28559264

I used a different conversion for the Joshua tree itself, to make its
"leaves" stand out.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

In a message dated 8/31/04 1:38:53 PM, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:


> 
> This is the procedure I use for conversion to BW:
> 
> 1. Open it and convert it to Adobe RGB 1998 and at that point
> create a duplicate image to show on the screen at the same time.
> Move them around so you can see both images at the same time. Do all
> of your final work on the copy image and rename it according to your
> whim at the time. Convert the copy now to grayscale.
> 
> 2. Using the original image, on the palette bar at the top right
> select channels which will show 4 channels---Red Green Blue and the
> composite RGB. If you left-click on the right panel of each color an
> eye will appear on the left of the panel for that color and will
> show how the image would look if only that color was used. This will
> show up on the actual image as BW on the original image.
> 
> 3. You may find that only one channel will give you the effect that
> you desire or you may have to combine two channels or even all three
> in different opacities and fills.
> 
> 4. On the original image as you choose a channel to use, place the
> pointer on the original image and Shift-A which will give a dotted
> line around the entire image. Then Shift-C which will copy that
> image channel into the clipboard. Left click on the copy image and
> Shift-V, which will transfer the channel from the clipboard to the
> copy image. Do this with the other channels as needed.
> 
> 5. When the channels you want have been copied, close the original
> image without saving any changes to it. That image is still a virgin
> image in case you goof up on this and other attempts to work it up
> in BW.
> 
> 6. Now all work is done on the copy image and it is the one that
> will be saved with a different name than the original. Left-click on
> the layers tab on the palette bar and you will have layers for each
> channel you copied plus one called background. At this point I
> usually rename them with the name of the channel I copied (Red or
> Green or Blue). In the case of the Rust In Peace truck, I used the
> Green and Blue channels. I copy channels from the top down so my
> Layer 1 is renamed Green and Layer 2 is renamed Blue. To rename them
> Double-Left-click on the words Layer 1 for the first layer and type
> in the name of the channel copied from the original image. In my
> case it was Green and the other one was Blue. Now you have three
> layers ---Green Blue Background. Eyes should be on the left side of
> all the channels.
> 
> 7. Now comes the magic!!!!! You notice the channels are stacked on
> top of each other Blue over Green over Background. and up on the
> upper portion of the channel window you have two sections
> called "Opacity" and Fill" in percentages starting with 100%. Left-
> click and hold on the layer that is the lightest (Green) and slide
> it up to the same level as the darkest (Blue) and release. You now
> have layers names of Green Blue and Background. I do this so the
> lightest layer is on top so the darker portions can start showing
> through as I lower the opacity of the top layer a little at a time.
> 
> 8. It suited my aye at 61% for the Green opacity. You can do the
> same for the Blue layer, but if you do; left click on the eye on the
> Green layer so you can see the effect of Blue on Background; then
> click on Green eye again to see the combined effect on all three
> layers. Experiment till it suits your eye and desired effect.
> 
> 9. Then click on Layer>Flatten image and now you have used channels
> mixed to your liking.
> 
> 10. Now set up your Proof. View>Proof Setup>whatever your choice for
> proofing is that gets equality between the monitor and printed
> image. A good way to determine your proof is to take an image you
> have already worked up and make a straight print from it without any
> further manipulation and compare it to the monitor. If the print is
> darker or lighter than the monitor image the same process applies
> for correction and proof profiling. With dried image in hand and
> well lit compare it carefully to the monitor image.
> 
> 11. This is the process to determine the correct proof setup for you
> final printing of any image you work up. This will change if you
> change inks or paper.
> 
> 12. View>Proof Setup>Single left click on whatever is showing in the
> Profile selection. This will bring up a menu of all proof profiles
> on your computer that Photoshop uses. Start at the top and carefully
> compare each one with the printed image making sure the
> box "Preserve Color Numbers is Checked" if it is available.
> Sometimes it won't be. When you select one from the list the list
> goes away but the selection is highlighted in the profile selection.
> Simply arrow-down on the keyboard till one of the examples does
> match the finished and dried print you made for this image. Take
> your time and preferably do this in a darkened room so ambient light
> won't sway your decision. That way when you print in a lighted room
> you won't be swayed by the brighter light and think something is
> wrong. Save your choice with any name you can easily associate with
> the paper choice and inks used so you can simply use it for all
> images you print on that paper and with that inkset.
> 
> 13. Print and enjoy the fruits of your labor, or discard and start
> all over again. That's part of the learning process. It isn't cut
> and dry--it's creative---it's fun---it's disheartening--it's
> whatever it is--but it's photography at it's most challenging and
> rewarding when it all comes together with the photographer.
> 
> 

Or you could just shoot Tri-X.   Isn't this an awful lot of work to make 
one's way back to what film has been doing for generations?   I don't mean to 
reignite the old film/digital debate; there's no sense in arguing which is better; 
they each have their strengths; they are different tools.   But it does seem 
perverse that people embrace a new technology to mimic the appearance of an 
old one.   

Sanders McNew


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sanders,

While this wan't my question, I wanted to thank you for such a 
detailed-thorough explanation, it was very helpful to me.  Thanks for 
taking the time to share your knowledge.

Don

<snip>

> > This is the procedure I use for conversion to BW:
> > 
> > 1. Open it and convert it to Adobe RGB 1998 and at that point
> > create a duplicate image to show on the screen at the same time.
> > Move them around so you can see both images at the same time. Do 
all
> > of your final work on the copy image and rename it according to 
your
> > whim at the time. Convert the copy now to grayscale.
> > 

<snip>