Digital BW, The Print

OK, i just did a side-by-side. same image printed using quadtone rip 
and IP. the quadtone is noticeably superior. 

jack

Really?

Fantastic.

Can you give us more details? 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: johnmuir.geo [mailto:johnmuir.geo@...] 
> Sent: sexta-feira, 10 de setembro de 2004 15:21
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] RE: Quadtone Rip
> 
> 
> OK, i just did a side-by-side. same image printed using quadtone rip 
> and IP. the quadtone is noticeably superior. 
> 
> jack
> 
> 
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>

More details:

to sum up, smoother transition, especially in shadows and dark areas. 
The IP image actually is a bit posterized in these areas, while the 
quadtone is smooth.

I'll do more testing as I get to know the program better. Anyone know 
how I get it to print on 13 x 19 paper, instead of letter size. Also, 
how do I plug in different curves?

thanks

jack

>  "...especially in shadows and dark areas. 
The IP image actually is a bit posterized in these areas..."
 
Posterized shadows is not a characteristic of IP, at least on my 9600.  There must be some other issue.
 
(I'm not throwing stones at QTR.  From what I've seen the quality should be a match for IP.)
 
Tom Baker




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnmuir.geo"
<johnmuir.geo@y...> wrote:
> OK, i just did a side-by-side. same image printed using quadtone rip 
> and IP. the quadtone is noticeably superior. 
> 
> jack

Wow! At 12:10 PM you posted to ask about QTRIP--and sounding (to me)
as if you had "heard a lot" but not ever used it. Then by 2:10 PM you
have got it, installed it, run a test print and made a side-by-side
comparison with IP output. That must set some kind of record. Amazing!

BTW, I'm curious why--if you already owned the co$tly ImagePrint--you
were interested in an "alternative"?

Phil

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Rose" 
<pjrose@f...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnmuir.geo"
> <johnmuir.geo@y...> wrote:
> > OK, i just did a side-by-side. same image printed using quadtone 
rip 
> > and IP. the quadtone is noticeably superior. 
> > 
> > jack
> 
> Wow! At 12:10 PM you posted to ask about QTRIP--and sounding (to me)
> as if you had "heard a lot" but not ever used it. Then by 2:10 PM 
you
> have got it, installed it, run a test print and made a side-by-side
> comparison with IP output. That must set some kind of record. 
Amazing!
> 
> BTW, I'm curious why--if you already owned the co$tly ImagePrint--
you
> were interested in an "alternative"?
> 
> Phil

Hi Phil

Just curiosity, I guess. I'm after the holy grail of inkjet output 
that is indistinguishable from silver, so I'm willing to try stuff. 
Got a good recommendation on QTR from someone here at the College of 
Santa Fe, so I was primed.

Anyway, I've scanned the two prints, and will try to get 'em up on my 
website over the next couple of days.

Jack

Here's a link to the two versions of the image:

http://zhidoni.home.comcast.net/rip.htm

Thank you John

IP looks lighter, don´t you think?

More/better detail in the shadows.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: johnmuir.geo [mailto:johnmuir.geo@...] 
> Sent: sexta-feira, 10 de setembro de 2004 23:07
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Quadtone Rip
> 
> 
> Here's a link to the two versions of the image:
> 
> http://zhidoni.home.comcast.net/rip.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
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> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. 
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> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
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> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE 
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> YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, 
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> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
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> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO 
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
>

I think the difference is most marked in the differences in tonal 
transition in the background..actually the "desert varnish" on the 
rock. The IP image seems to me to have more trouble dealing with that 
transition. But the biggest difference is that the QTR print looks 
more like what I have on my screen.

These are first impressions only. Eventually I plan to try this 
comparison with other B/W images.

Frankly, I would be happier to find that IP is, overall, superior. Or 
at least better for certain images...just another arrow in the 
quiver. After all, that thing cost me plenty.

Jack



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson 
Ricciardi" <nelson_@r...> wrote:

> Thank you John
> 
> IP looks lighter, don´t you think?
> 
> More/better detail in the shadows.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: johnmuir.geo [mailto:johnmuir.geo@y...] 
> > Sent: sexta-feira, 10 de setembro de 2004 23:07
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Quadtone Rip
> > 
> > 
> > Here's a link to the two versions of the image:
> > 
> > http://zhidoni.home.comcast.net/rip.htm
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> > --------------------~--> 
> > $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. 
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/ucIolB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------~-> 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
> > you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership 
> > preferences by visiting this same page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> > messages to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
> > or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be 
> > removed from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
> > digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic 
> > posts may be removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
> > rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and 
> > decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group 
> > Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL 
> > BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE 
> > THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> > YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, 
> > INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN 
> > IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> > YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
> > THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
> > ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) 
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, 
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO 
> > THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> >

I am no expert, but that is the look that my prints get when they are 
"messed up"......something is just wrong with the IP print. By "messed 
up" I mean that i have to figure out why the paper/ink combination is 
not working. That print just has problems. The blacks are all blocked 
up, and the it's also too light. It's not dialed in. By trial and error 
(my primitive way) you could get that worked out. Other people get 
profiles from professionals etc.....Never tried IP, but I'll bet that 
it works great once you get it dialed in........my 
half-a-penny's-worth. DM
On Sep 10, 2004, at 7:07 PM, johnmuir.geo wrote:

> Here's a link to the two versions of the image:
>
> http://zhidoni.home.comcast.net/rip.htm
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not much "dialing in" available on the IP version (lite) for the 
2200. sliders are disabled, so there really isn't much room for 
error. And, don't get me wrong about IP, even for color, it's still a 
bit better than any profile I've used. 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Meeuwsen 
<lipshurt@m...> wrote:
> I am no expert, but that is the look that my prints get when they 
are 
> "messed up"......something is just wrong with the IP print. 
By "messed 
> up" I mean that i have to figure out why the paper/ink combination 
is 
> not working. That print just has problems. The blacks are all 
blocked 
> up, and the it's also too light. It's not dialed in. By trial and 
error 
> (my primitive way) you could get that worked out. Other people get 
> profiles from professionals etc.....Never tried IP, but I'll bet 
that 

> it works great once you get it dialed in........my 
> half-a-penny's-worth. DM
> On Sep 10, 2004, at 7:07 PM, johnmuir.geo wrote:
> 
> > Here's a link to the two versions of the image:
> >
> > http://zhidoni.home.comcast.net/rip.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 9/10/04 8:07 PM, "johnmuir.geo" sent the following verbage:

> Here's a link to the two versions of the image:
> 
> http://zhidoni.home.comcast.net/rip.htm
> 

As far as I know you have to add the profiles as a variable. Those that were
supplied with both RIPS will effect the image differently. You can tweak
your QTR file so that it prints more similarly to the image print output
which appears to have more compression in the blacks .. Whereas the QTR
image appears to have a smoother range throughout.

I find that if I'm using a file previously printed through another driver or
RIP I have to add an S curve or at the very least drop the lower blacks so
that it prints similar to the previous output. This again I feel is because
the profiles supplied with QTR handle the files well, without the
compression inherent in other methods I was using.

If I am printing a new file, I manipulate it for the QTR output, using the
softproofs supplied by Carl, and the match is very nice to the screen.

Bottom line in my opinion is that each RIP / profile combo will handle your
file differently, reliant on the way the RIP handles the data yes, but also
reliant on profile, and linearization... and you have to manipulate your
tones in the image file to reflect the desired output from each.

So to do a straight comparison with these variables in mind, is not doing
either RIP a service. I'd appreciate being corrected if my thoughts are off
base.


Carolyn

---
http://www.carolynfrayn.com

The IR image has clear posterization IMHO.  QTR wins hands-down.

Maris

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: johnmuir.geo 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 9:07 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Quadtone Rip


  Here's a link to the two versions of the image:

  http://zhidoni.home.comcast.net/rip.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jack,

I don't know how long you've  played around with these printing
methods, but the right profile is really  key to succesful bw printing.
The big advantage of QTR, IJC/OPM and StudioPrint is that 
they all offer ways for the end user to make or tweak a profile 
to suit their personal preference or equipment.
With IP and others, you have to depend on the company to calibrate
the system for you. In fact, with that in mind, IP offers to make you a custom
profile if you send them  a printed target (for inksets they support).
 That takes the work out of your hands but in turn means 
that you can't tweak things on the fly.

In order to compare RIPs then, you have to make sure that each is
running profiles calibrated and linearized to your particular system.
It's for you to choose if you like to do the profiling or have someone else
at a distant location handle it. Depending on that choice, you go with the
appropriate RIP.  All these RIPs can be made to print nearly 
identical prints. Their differences are far more subtle than your
print comparisons suggest.

My recommendation is to go with printing software that not only
allows you to make your own profiles, but makes the process fast
and fool-proof. Beyond that, you'll need a good understanding
of color management in general, just to make things match across the
whole workflow.

Antonis

--This is good, considered reply.  thanks, Antonis.

I am working with the supplied profiles by both developers for the 
inkset and media. I really had not expected that much from QTR, and 
was surprised at the result, so decided to post my findings in this 
forum. 

Indeed, I could work with IP on the profile issue; they've really 
been quite supportive. But they have a very up-to-date profile for 
the media I used for the test, and I doubt that they wouold see fit 
to tweak it further.  I was just interested in the side-by-side 
comparison of the "out of the can" profiles that each of the 
developers supplied. 

I realize also that I have much to learn in all this.

Jack

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Antonis" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> Jack,
> 
> I don't know how long you've  played around with these printing
> methods, but the right profile is really  key to succesful bw 
printing.
> The big advantage of QTR, IJC/OPM and StudioPrint is that 
> they all offer ways for the end user to make or tweak a profile 
> to suit their personal preference or equipment.
> With IP and others, you have to depend on the company to calibrate
> the system for you. In fact, with that in mind, IP offers to make 
you a custom
> profile if you send them  a printed target (for inksets they 
support).
>  That takes the work out of your hands but in turn means 
> that you can't tweak things on the fly.
> 
> In order to compare RIPs then, you have to make sure that each is
> running profiles calibrated and linearized to your particular 
system.
> It's for you to choose if you like to do the profiling or have 
someone else
> at a distant location handle it. Depending on that choice, you go 
with the

> appropriate RIP.  All these RIPs can be made to print nearly 
> identical prints. Their differences are far more subtle than your
> print comparisons suggest.
> 
> My recommendation is to go with printing software that not only
> allows you to make your own profiles, but makes the process fast
> and fool-proof. Beyond that, you'll need a good understanding
> of color management in general, just to make things match across the
> whole workflow.
> 
> Antonis

It's a little difficult to imagine shadow being produced by either RIP.  But, without seeing the original file in PS, it's hard to really judge.
 
Tom Baker

"johnmuir.geo" <johnmuir.geo@...> wrote:
Here's a link to the two versions of the image:

http://zhidoni.home.comcast.net/rip.htm






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John,

Why so limited in your horizons? Surely the 'holy grail' should be for 
inkjet prints that are better than silver? There is nothing magic about 
silver prints; they were just the best technique of their time for making 
photographs - which was rather a long time ago.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "johnmuir.geo" <johnmuir.geo@...>

 I'm after the holy grail of inkjet output
that is indistinguishable from silver, so I'm willing to try stuff.

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, johnmuir.geo wrote:

> 
> Not much "dialing in" available on the IP version (lite) for the 
> 2200. sliders are disabled, so there really isn't much room for 
> error. And, don't get me wrong about IP, even for color, it's still a 
> bit better than any profile I've used. 
> 

I've done comparisons between QTR and IP 5.6 myself and can say as far as quality, they are very comparable.  IP does give me finer control over the shadow with the black point slider.  

Make sure your Color Management settings in IP are correct.  Using the wrong rendering intent in IP, for example, can cause blocked up shadows.  Also, make sure you have the correct ink settings in the print dialog.

In my testing, I've noticed two visible differences between IP and QTR on EEM paper.

1.  IP produces darker blacks (higher dmax).
2.  IP prints look more neutral than QTR (which looks slightly warm using CoolSe/warm at 50%).

For the money, QTR is a phenomenal deal though.

Tom

--
"CRW format is a limited format to archive your images in." 
  -- Canon Tech Support (Aug. 26, 2004) | http://rawformat.com

1. Suggests you do not have QTR properly calibrated - try making your own
curves.

2. 50/50 is not intended to be neutral.  You need to decide on a mix that
you believe is neutral.  Again, you can make your own curves to produce any
tone you like.

> From: Thomas Fors <tom@...>

 
> 
> In my testing, I've noticed two visible differences between IP and QTR on EEM
> paper.
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  IP produces darker blacks (higher dmax).
> 
> 2.  IP prints look more neutral than QTR (which looks slightly warm using
> CoolSe/warm at 50%).
> 
> 
> 
> For the money, QTR is a phenomenal deal though.
> 
> 
> 
> Tom
>

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Steve Kale wrote:

> 
> 1. Suggests you do not have QTR properly calibrated - try making your own
> curves.
> 
> 2. 50/50 is not intended to be neutral.  You need to decide on a mix that
> you believe is neutral.  Again, you can make your own curves to produce any
> tone you like.
> 

Agreed.  I haven't spent any time making custom curves for QTR.  I've only used the provided ones so far.

Once I have more free time, perhaps I will play with that.

Tom

--
8.2 million pixels held captive. | http://rawformat.com

Hello Everyone

I just started experimenting with QTR(for Windows)on an Epson 7600 
printer(with Ultrachrome inks - with Matte black) and EEM (Epson 
Enhanced Matte)and HPR (Hanamuhle Photo Rag)papers.

Some of the posters on this thread have made reference to QTR having 
capabilities for:

- Softproofing

- Profile Tweaking

Could you please explain how you go about using these two features ?

Thanks

Miguel Angel Aleman

A heck of a lot easier is to just use the slider in QTRgui
(http://www.sbillard.org/Shareware/QTRgui.htm).

Ken

  Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:05:04 +0100

     From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>

  1. Suggests you do not have QTR properly calibrated - try making your own
  curves.

  2. 50/50 is not intended to be neutral.  You need to decide on a mix that
  you believe is neutral.  Again, you can make your own curves to produce any
  tone you like.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]