Digital BW, The Print

There must be some interesting explanation about how and why England 
and Europe use A4 etc. paper and US uses Letter sized (and other 
sizes).

How and why did they get different standards.

I see that A4 fits a 35mm aspect ratio full frame. Letter size 
doesn't fit either full frame or 8x10 (probably another explanation 
about 8x10).

Just interested in this...I think about it every month when I see the 
two paper sizes. It's funny how we've reduced the size of the world 
digitally but not on paper <g>.

thanks and cheers,

Tom O'Connell

Tom OConnell wrote:
> There must be some interesting explanation about how and why England 
> and Europe use A4 etc. paper and US uses Letter sized (and other 
> sizes).
> 
> How and why did they get different standards.
> 
> I see that A4 fits a 35mm aspect ratio full frame. Letter size 
> doesn't fit either full frame or 8x10 (probably another explanation 
> about 8x10).
> 
> Just interested in this...I think about it every month when I see the 
> two paper sizes. It's funny how we've reduced the size of the world 
> digitally but not on paper <g>.
> 
> thanks and cheers,
> 
> Tom O'Connell

The Dutch were partly responsible for both paper systems :-)

For the American size see
http://www.afandpa.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Pulp_and_Paper/Fun_Facts/The_U_S__Standard_Paper_Size.htm

For metrification see Simon Stevin etc:
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/dates.htm

What would have been your paper size if Simon Stevin had laid the 
foundation for NYC and Peter Stuyvesant defended us against the 
Spanish, French and the sea ?   We are lucky that it was the 
other way around.

Ernst

Paul, I share your frustration over metric measure, but don't blame "The US." 
The facts are: the US government mapping agency (USCGS) adopted France's meter 
and kilogram standards in the 1800s. In 1866, Congress authorized use of the 
metric system and supplied each state with a set of standard metric weights and 
measures. In 1875, the US was one of the original signatory nations to the 
"Treaty of the Meter" (also known as the "Metric Convention," which established 
the International Bureau of Weights and Measures, in France).

Unlike most of the world, the US system limits government regulation of private 
industry. In 1975, Congress passed the Metric Conversion Act "to coordinate and 
plan the increasing use of the metric system in the United States." By law, it 
had to be voluntary for the private sector, and despite millions of dollars of 
government support, it was largely ignored, and was disestablished in 1982. 
However, since that same year, Federal agencies have been required, with certain 
exceptions, to use the metric system in procurement, grants and other 
business-related activities. The US military, for example, has been 100% metric 
for decades.

The official US Government position 
(http://ts.nist.gov/ts/htdocs/200/202/lc1136a.htm ) is: "...the competitiveness 
of American products and services in world markets, will be enhanced by 
completing the change to the metric system of units. Failure to complete the 
change will increasingly handicap the Nation's industry and economy."

In short, the US Government has championed the Metric System for almost 200 
years, and has mandated its internal use for the past 22 years, but can not 
require it of the private sector. We consumers, have to pressure US industry.

----- Original Message ----- 
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:14:28 -0400
   From: "bhhc" <tawow@...>
Subject: Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???

...snip... the US once again decided that THEY would guide? the world and opted 
to stay in the dark ages . . . no one would tell them what to do (a lot like the 
little brat crying and running home, screaming "it's my ball, and my bat, and 
I'm going home!")....snip...

Paul Aparycki



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The bottom line, your average American can't make the change to a simple
system where a litre of water ways one kilogramme... :-)

> From: "xspamxken.schuster" <xspamxken.schuster@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:27:16 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
> 
> Paul, I share your frustration over metric measure, but don't blame "The US."
> The facts are: the US government mapping agency (USCGS) adopted France's meter
> and kilogram standards in the 1800s. In 1866, Congress authorized use of the
> metric system and supplied each state with a set of standard metric weights
> and 
> measures. In 1875, the US was one of the original signatory nations to the
> "Treaty of the Meter" (also known as the "Metric Convention," which
> established 
> the International Bureau of Weights and Measures, in France).
> 
> Unlike most of the world, the US system limits government regulation of
> private 
> industry. In 1975, Congress passed the Metric Conversion Act "to coordinate
> and 
> plan the increasing use of the metric system in the United States." By law, it
> had to be voluntary for the private sector, and despite millions of dollars of
> government support, it was largely ignored, and was disestablished in 1982.
> However, since that same year, Federal agencies have been required, with
> certain 
> exceptions, to use the metric system in procurement, grants and other
> business-related activities. The US military, for example, has been 100%
> metric 
> for decades.
> 
> The official US Government position
> (http://ts.nist.gov/ts/htdocs/200/202/lc1136a.htm ) is: "...the
> competitiveness 
> of American products and services in world markets, will be enhanced by
> completing the change to the metric system of units. Failure to complete the
> change will increasingly handicap the Nation's industry and economy."
> 
> In short, the US Government has championed the Metric System for almost 200
> years, and has mandated its internal use for the past 22 years, but can not
> require it of the private sector. We consumers, have to pressure US industry.

It was intentionally mispelt... ;-)

> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@btinternet.com>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:38:35 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
> 
> The bottom line, your average American can't make the change to a simple
> system where a litre of water ways one kilogramme... :-)
> 
> 
>> From: "xspamxken.schuster" <xspamxken.schuster@...>
>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:27:16 -0400
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: [Digital BW] OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
>> 
>> Paul, I share your frustration over metric measure, but don't blame "The US."
>> The facts are: the US government mapping agency (USCGS) adopted France's
>> meter
>> and kilogram standards in the 1800s. In 1866, Congress authorized use of the
>> metric system and supplied each state with a set of standard metric weights
>> and 
>> measures. In 1875, the US was one of the original signatory nations to the
>> "Treaty of the Meter" (also known as the "Metric Convention," which
>> established 
>> the International Bureau of Weights and Measures, in France).
>> 
>> Unlike most of the world, the US system limits government regulation of
>> private 
>> industry. In 1975, Congress passed the Metric Conversion Act "to coordinate
>> and 
>> plan the increasing use of the metric system in the United States." By law,
>> it
>> had to be voluntary for the private sector, and despite millions of dollars
>> of
>> government support, it was largely ignored, and was disestablished in 1982.
>> However, since that same year, Federal agencies have been required, with
>> certain 
>> exceptions, to use the metric system in procurement, grants and other
>> business-related activities. The US military, for example, has been 100%
>> metric 
>> for decades.
>> 
>> The official US Government position
>> (http://ts.nist.gov/ts/htdocs/200/202/lc1136a.htm ) is: "...the
>> competitiveness 
>> of American products and services in world markets, will be enhanced by
>> completing the change to the metric system of units. Failure to complete the
>> change will increasingly handicap the Nation's industry and economy."
>> 
>> In short, the US Government has championed the Metric System for almost 200
>> years, and has mandated its internal use for the past 22 years, but can not
>> require it of the private sector. We consumers, have to pressure US industry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Dear Clayton,

I'm writing you off list and I hope you do not mind. 

Clayton, if you would like to find out more about Québec, I would
invite you to consider spending your next vacation here. Montreal host
the largest and biggest jazz festival in the world. And just after
that, Montréal is host to the "Just for Laugh Festival" where you can
get tickets to see the finest comedians the US has to offer. Yes, in
July of every year, the biggest names in american comedy (stage,
screen and cinema) are in Montréal.

http://www.montrealjazzfest.com/
http://www.hahaha.com/festival/index.aspx?l=en-ca&pnid=fjfl

Of course, you'll find photo-ops most everywhere. Montréal, the lovely
Québec city, the Kamouraska and the Charlevoix region on opposite
sides of the St-Lawrence river offer unique photographic
opportunities. And speaking of photography, Montreal is host each
year, in September, to the month long photographic event "Mois de la
photo"

http://www.moisdelaphoto.com/index.html

Some half million Americans come to visit every year (at least they
did before 9/11)  and some 1,5 to 2 millions Quebeckers visit the US
every year.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------
Getting back to the debate at hand, I know very well what Paul is
talking about. We've had this debate in Québec since the past 30 years
and it's not going to end. It's pitting French against English and
English against French. I'm sick of it, I've heard it all before and
if I can, I'm not going to let it happen in this forum. Here's is what
he said:

"We are not allowed here in Quebec . . . actually we are, but if the
xenophobic nationalists had their way it would be outlawed. 

We are however, not allowed to operate a business in English, nor a
web site, nor have any printed business media in English, unless you
have it in french first . . . even if you don't do any business here!

Anyway, my point was that life would be a lot easier if everybody was
singing the same tune . . . not to mention the incredible amounts of
stress and money it would save."

There is nothing in this statement about what the forum is about. It's
all politics. You may find it interesting, I do not. But the last
phrase is heavy with consequence. Six millions French speaking people
in Québec are not going to disappear to make Paul happy. As I said,
every side of this debate have been explored over the past 30 years,
and this one argument comes up every so often.

Clayton, you know enough about American politics to start any furious
debate. Just pits Kerry against Bush, the liberals against the radcons
and things on the DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint forum would get out of
hand very fast. 

I rather not see Québec politics being discussed on this forum. Like I
said in my first reply to Paul, there are more appropriate forums
where these things are discussed. Yes, this thing is furiously being
debated on Usenet. 

I rather talk about photography than politics. I hope you understand.
Anyway, we'll see how the debate on who invented television goes. It
should make for interested reading, even though it has nothing to do
with b&w digital printing.

Kind regards,

André Moreau
Rock Forest, Québec

I deeply apologize for previous message. It was not meant for this list.
I hope no one is offended and if so, I offer my most profound apologies.

André

Good info here, appreciate the balance. 

Of course, on the other hand, there are a bunch of things government 
here *does* control that never made it to metric. Road signs still 
specify miles. Actually, all that car stuff is regulated, so they 
could have mandated a change. There are a bunch more regulations 
here than people think, it is not a totally free economy, and most 
of those never made it to metric, though some did compromise and 
allowed or forced dual systems.

Also, on the original topic, when Reagan adopted the 8.5x11 standard 
for the government in the 80s (changing from a size the government 
used to use before that) it was a perfect opportunity to specify 
metric paper sizes. Another example of internal regulation that 
ignored metric. 

However, I really don't think it is a "not invented here" mentality. 

Americans as a whole are actually very resistant to change. It is a 
small minority of leading edge folks that spearheaded the internet 
and other technologies here, not the masses. I cannot see many 
politicians willing to force a new system down the American public's 
throat. e.g. HDTV was stalled for years as Congress required that 
any new system also be compatible with NTSC. Luckily, they finally 
recanted on that, but look at how slowly HDTV is moving here anyway, 
even in the land which has more disposable income than any other. 
Those of us in Urban areas don't appreciate how the vast majority of 
America lives (in small towns dotted throughout the country).

Europe may not have as much invested in Bleeding Edge, but the 
common household typically has faster acceptance of improvements. 
Interactive TV, Digital cable and cell phones come to mind. 

Yes, I have actually lived in both places and am not just going from 
sound bites from various celebrities :-).

I am not actually frustrated by this, there are many advantages of 
being in America (which is why I am still here :-), this is a 
relatively minor annoyance. There are major issues coming up now, 
but I *really* want to keep politics off this thread :-).

Manoj



--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "xspamxken.schuster" 
<xspamxken.schuster@e...> wrote:
> Paul, I share your frustration over metric measure, but don't 
blame "The US." 
> The facts are: the US government mapping agency (USCGS) adopted 
France's meter 
> and kilogram standards in the 1800s. In 1866, Congress authorized 
use of the 
> metric system and supplied each state with a set of standard 
metric weights and 
> measures. In 1875, the US was one of the original signatory 
nations to the 
> "Treaty of the Meter" (also known as the "Metric Convention," 
which established 
> the International Bureau of Weights and Measures, in France).
> 
> Unlike most of the world, the US system limits government 
regulation of private 
> industry. In 1975, Congress passed the Metric Conversion Act "to 
coordinate and 
> plan the increasing use of the metric system in the United 
States." By law, it 
> had to be voluntary for the private sector, and despite millions 
of dollars of 
> government support, it was largely ignored, and was disestablished 
in 1982. 
> However, since that same year, Federal agencies have been 
required, with certain 
> exceptions, to use the metric system in procurement, grants and 
other 
> business-related activities. The US military, for example, has 
been 100% metric 
> for decades.
> 
> The official US Government position 
> (http://ts.nist.gov/ts/htdocs/200/202/lc1136a.htm ) is: "...the 
competitiveness 
> of American products and services in world markets, will be 
enhanced by 
> completing the change to the metric system of units. Failure to 
complete the 
> change will increasingly handicap the Nation's industry and 
economy."
> 
> In short, the US Government has championed the Metric System for 
almost 200 
> years, and has mandated its internal use for the past 22 years, 
but can not 
> require it of the private sector. We consumers, have to pressure 
US industry.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:14:28 -0400
>    From: "bhhc" <tawow@s...>
> Subject: Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
> 
> ...snip... the US once again decided that THEY would guide? the 
world and opted 
> to stay in the dark ages . . . no one would tell them what to do 
(a lot like the 
> little brat crying and running home, screaming "it's my ball, and 
my bat, and 

> I'm going home!")....snip...
> 
> Paul Aparycki
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Change for change's sake is usually not a beneficial proposition.

Why should the US change? So far I have not seen an argument.

Why should we not change? Well, there will be a great cost of going through
the change. So, if there is no benefit....

-Stephen
 www.sbillard.org/Stephen

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jimpatel63 [mailto:jimpatel63@...] 
> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 7:52 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
> 
> 
 
> Americans as a whole are actually very resistant to change. It is a 
> small minority of leading edge folks that spearheaded the internet 
> and other technologies here, not the masses. I cannot see many 
> politicians willing to force a new system down the American public's 
> throat. e.g. HDTV was stalled for years as Congress required that 
> any new system also be compatible with NTSC. Luckily, they finally 
> recanted on that, but look at how slowly HDTV is moving here anyway, 
> even in the land which has more disposable income than any other. 
> Those of us in Urban areas don't appreciate how the vast majority of 
> America lives (in small towns dotted throughout the country).
> 
>

Why should we Americans change? Because the whole cost of maintaining 
dual systems around the world is paid by us. Think about it. If the 
Japanese have to make things in a size just for us, to accomodate us, 
they can't sell it outside of the US market. No one else in the world 
wants it. So we have to pay for all the R&D for the US version. We have 
to pay for the second inventory for the US version. No economy of scale.

People making screws and nuts and bolts in this country have to make two 
sets. The "American" sizes can't be sold outside the USA. The metric 
ones have a world market. That means that Americans pay the whole cost 
for tooling for the American sizes. No one else want's the damn things. 
That's why you can't buy a car today that isn't metric. GM went metric 
long ago to get out of this very problem.

Our costs are already up because of this. We should change, to get our 
costs back down. To make our goods more competitive around the world. So 
we don't have to make two versions of everything.

That said, I do everything in metric that I can. But I can't find anyone 
who will sell me Hahnemuhle Photo Rag in 60cm or 110cm wide rolls...

--
Hogarth Hughes


Stephen Billard wrote:

>Change for change's sake is usually not a beneficial proposition.
>
>Why should the US change? So far I have not seen an argument.
>
>Why should we not change? Well, there will be a great cost of going through
>the change. So, if there is no benefit....
>
>-Stephen
> www.sbillard.org/Stephen
>
>
>  
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: jimpatel63 [mailto:jimpatel63@...] 
>>Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 7:52 PM
>>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
>>
>>
>>    
>>
> 
>  
>
>>Americans as a whole are actually very resistant to change. It is a 
>>small minority of leading edge folks that spearheaded the internet 
>>and other technologies here, not the masses. I cannot see many 
>>politicians willing to force a new system down the American public's 
>>throat. e.g. HDTV was stalled for years as Congress required that 
>>any new system also be compatible with NTSC. Luckily, they finally 
>>recanted on that, but look at how slowly HDTV is moving here anyway, 
>>even in the land which has more disposable income than any other. 
>>Those of us in Urban areas don't appreciate how the vast majority of 
>>America lives (in small towns dotted throughout the country).
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>  
>

I see, 

So if we just made metric cars, we could sell them in Japan, India, and
Great Britain?
A 50 cm US TV would be just right for Europe?

I'm afraid your view is a bit naive. There are lots of changes a company
must make to sell a product in a different country/culture. Measurements are
a minor variant. 

-Stephen
 www.sbillard.org/Stephen

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hogarth Hughes [mailto:hogarth@...] 
> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 11:44 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: OT - U.S vs. Europe paper sizes???
> 
> 
> Why should we Americans change? Because the whole cost of maintaining 
> dual systems around the world is paid by us. Think about it. If the 
> Japanese have to make things in a size just for us, to accomodate us, 
> they can't sell it outside of the US market. No one else in the world 
> wants it. So we have to pay for all the R&D for the US 
> version. We have 
> to pay for the second inventory for the US version. No 
> economy of scale.
> 
> People making screws and nuts and bolts in this country have 
> to make two 
> sets. The "American" sizes can't be sold outside the USA. The metric 
> ones have a world market. That means that Americans pay the 
> whole cost 
> for tooling for the American sizes. No one else want's the 
> damn things. 
> That's why you can't buy a car today that isn't metric. GM 
> went metric 
> long ago to get out of this very problem.
> 
> Our costs are already up because of this. We should change, 
> to get our 
> costs back down. To make our goods more competitive around 
> the world. So 
> we don't have to make two versions of everything.
> 
> That said, I do everything in metric that I can. But I can't 
> find anyone 
> who will sell me Hahnemuhle Photo Rag in 60cm or 110cm wide rolls...
> 
>